ick... feeling ill.......

[d's mom]

uuuuugggggggghhhhhhh i feel really ill right now. i just had to do one of those humiliating awful things that make me want to scream and die.

one of the things they do is make me 'beg' for my visits with my girl. they got the judge to order it, so there was no visitation schedule - its 'up to their discretion'. (what fool doesnt know that kids need schedules? forget adults - *kids* need schedules!) but, they use it to make me beg and then if i dont do it 'right', (who here doesnt know their standards are ARBITRARY) were not allowed our visit.

that means, that if i want to see her, i need to contact them, and 'beg' for it.  these are people that any contact with at all, makes me feel sooooooooo toxic that i cannot even stand myself. they didnt even know my address for 15 years.. but now not only do i have no choice but to contact them, i have to be 'nice' (however they define it that day, depending largely on what theyve been drinking) which makes me hate myself sooooo bad i cant even stand it.

ive asked them lots of times to just set up a schedule. ive asked them to set these things up through an intermediary. but no, i need to contact them personally, and ask them every single time. theres no other way they will allow. (of course, thats the point. they want to make me beg. ) how else would it be any fun for them.

if i dont 'beg' correctly, or whatever the hell they feel like on that particular day,  (and they still usually dont give me what i ask for anyway, and freely tell people its becuase i was somehow 'unreasonable') they just tell me i am out of luck and cannot see her. but im still expected to beg for it anyway.

i can just picture them there laughing, at me having to hold my tongue when they know full well  i want to tell them to go to h*ll and precisely where they can shove it. (and that im totally justified in doing both of those) but that if i even show a tiny hint of how i really feel, theres no telling how long i will have to wait, before i can talk to my own kid again.

it makes me soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo SICK!!!!!! my stomach is in knots right now. i hate myself for doing what they say. i hate myself for having anything to do with them. being 'polite' to these... sociopaths..... goes against every cell in my body. dealing with them truly makes me feel as though i need to hate myself.

but then, thats what they want......i hate hating myself. this sucks. i know nobody can do anything. i just need to feel im not crazy for hating this.
thanks for listening to this nastiness.
Anna

[d's mom]

ps, ps pleeeeeease do not be concerned that im going to flip out and be upset with anyone regarding this or anything else....... that other tme was just a result of the fact that no matter who i turn to for help they so often seem to assume that somehow *ive* done something wrong or to deserve this.......... (just like 'invasion of the body snatchers'.)  

im really not a jerk and im usually not rude.

they have me trapped so well. (

<lets see if this works:>
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif

[Brigid]

Anna,
You have every right to be upset with these people.  They are a HORROR   If someone was getting in the way of me seeing my children, I'm not sure how far I could go (murder would not be out of the question).  But, of course, you can't do that or your daughter loses you forever.  I'm sorry if I am asking things which have already been covered, but I was out of town for awhile and missed some of your original postings.  Have you consulted an attorney about reinstating your parental status?  Are there a series of steps which must be taken for you to get her back?  Is Social Services involved?  Does your daughter have a therapist to talk to?  If not, can this be court ordered?

I'm so sorry for what you are going through.  I would be raging out of my mind.  I'm keeping you and your daughter in my prayers.

Brigid

[bunny]

Whenever I have to "play the game" and I'm forced to cave in to another's will, I remind myself who I'm doing it for. That has helped me.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi Anna:

The frustration and rage towards these people is powerful and understandable.

Ofcourse, as hard as it is...your best bet is to NOT let it become debilitating (which is easier said than done sometimes).

I'm having trouble with this statement of yours:

....dealing with them truly makes me feel as though i need to hate myself.

Why do you need to hate yourself for doing whatever it takes to maintain contact with your daughter?  Don't do that, ok??

Please.....give yourself credit for putting up with their stuff...for tolerating their junk.....for taking their crap......so that you have a better chance of seeing/communicating with your daughter.

You don't need anyone putting you down right now, especially you.  OK?

im really not a jerk and im usually not rude.

I believe you.  The best thing might be to stick to positive statements about yourself to yourself.  That will not be Nish but necessary to help you remain confident about the future.  Just a suggestion.

I was also wondering......do you communicate with them by email, or might it be possible to make these requests by email???

That way....you would have some record of making these requests and their responses.  It would also be a great idea to have a friend witness you sending these requests and even opening some of the responses.

(((((((((Anna)))))))))

Be cool    is my advice.  Use that anger to plan, implement and succeed!!

GFN

[Flowergirl]

You know, D's Mommy, I think we all grew up conditioned to deny our own emotions. Our anger is unacceptable. Their anger is reasonable.  It just isn't right. You have every right to be angry - and if posting to a message board is what it takes to help release some of that anger, I think that's wonderful!

Think of the alternatives - which many of us have (sadly) experienced. You could have screamed at a person. Or thrown dishes around the house. or done yourself some harm. or kicked a dog. or actually hurt a human being.

But you posted to a message board. That's one of the healthiest ways of releasing that anger... and in some part, that is what the board is here for.

We're all behind you, D's Mom, and I am sure that the time you spend with your daughter will make it all worthwhile.  And I'm sure she really really appreciates how hard you are working to stay in her life.

--FlowerGirl

[Anonymous]

D's Mom

You are doing what you have to do (at least for now anyway) in order to see your daughter.  To me it shows how much you love your daughter, that's all.  

I am sorry that you have to even deal with these monsters.  Unfortunately in order to have contact with your daughter you have to go through these maniacs.  

I can relate a little to how you are feeling.  I know I feel sooooo icky when I have to deal with X N and *pretend* that I am being respectful of him in order to get some sort of cooperation regarding what's going on in the children's lives.  It helps me to just scream when I am alone in the house.  It helps me release that *nasty feeling*.  I'm sure to do it when the kids aren't around though.  

In my opinion they are evil b/c not only are they making you suffer but they are enjoying the fact  that you are suffering.  I said it before and will say it again, life is a constant battle of good vs. evil.  I will keep you in my prayers.  Sorry to hear that you have to endure this.

Mia

[longtire]

Anna, I'm sorry to hear that you feel all twisted into knots right now.  Being a man I'm going to offer a possible different way of looking at it.

Have you thought about acting with them?  I mean can you be Anna the character actress and play the role (though not your choice) to the hilt?  That way you could beat them at their own "game."  You could choose to play this role for you and your daughter, rather than feeling like you are forced into something by the "Family."  Just a thought....

Is it legal to tape record phone conversations without the other person's awareness or permission where you live?  It is where I live.  I wouldn't suggest doing anything illegal in your situation, but if this is legal for you, it might be another way to gather evidence.

Sending good thoughts and prayers your way each day.  Keep posting/venting here as much as you need.

[d'smom]

ok.. i think i finally figured out how to do this.... i have to do these replies in another program and paste them in.. otherwise my computer crashes and i cant reply.... (missed a lot of replies that way, hopefully it wont happen now...) here goes. i will answer, one by one.

brigid, when i couldnt sleep @ 6 am or whatever today your message REALLY helped....i really needed to see that.

you also asked some questions:

"Have you consulted an attorney about reinstating your parental status? Are there a series of steps which must be taken for you to get her back? Is Social Services involved? Does your daughter have a therapist to talk to?"

to quickly answer:  the attorneys i talk with, basically say that it will cost a lot of money.... thats one reason i feel so helpless. its so disgusting to me, that her fate comes down to cash....  everyone says this shouldnt be happening, but yet, there it is, happening. becuase i dont have the 'social clout' or the 'monetary clout'. ohhhhh that really gets under my skin.  about the steps: no steps. another incredibly frustrating thing.

they realize completely that if they gave me anything real to comply with, i would comply with it easily... therefore, they give me nothing to comply with.

there is no program, no class to take, no goals to meet, no sensible requirement for me to put my energy toward, that i have a hope of completing.   i just have to 'act like they want me to'.  a constatnly shifting set of bizarre, arbitrary, ever changing and completely unmeetable expectations...  they were able to set themselves up as the legal arbiters of my 'ok ness'. when it should have definitely been a neutral third party, with actual training. my parents (my primary abusers since age 3) should =not= be in charge of deciding when i am 'ok'!  

social services: no. they are not involved. therapist: no. she had one, but my parents used her to brainwash her. they filled the therapist with stories about me, and the therapist reinforced all this negative stuff about me which did a huge amount of damage. when i tried to start a relationsihp with the therapist to explain myself and be part of my daughtters therapy - get this - i was informed that i WAS NOT PART OF MY DAUGHTERS TREATMENT PLAN. ((((((huh??????))))))

i was also told that i was expected to pay $100 an hour in advance, if i wanted to discuss my daughter with the therapist... so, that didnt work well for me at all. she is not in therapy now, and she needs it, but im afraid to push for it becuase they will just use it against us again......

everybody says 'oh thats reasonable the therapist needs to get paid' but its not, before they 'got to her' she told me i was welcome to call anytime and discuss my daughter at no charge. after they filled her head with what a fiend i was, then she wouldnt talk to me without cash in advance, which of course, i coudlnt pay. so, it was totally their doing to come between us and squeeze me out of the process, and it totally worked.

you can see, how they just have me helpless on every single front, and every time i even try to help my daughter, they jsut turn it against us and it makes everything worse. hes a doctor and a millionaire - and people believe them, without even knowing me.

i feel extremely trapped and helpless,  and as ive seen people comment - that is a huge component of anger.

thanks brigid for your thoughts. they were very soothing to me today.
d's mom

[d'smom]

ok. continuing on. :}

bunny: you said -

"Whenever I have to "play the game" and I'm forced to cave in to another's will, I remind myself who I'm doing it for. That has helped me."

well yes of course -  if it werent for her, i would have cut this all loose four years ago..... and been a lot happier for it...... but goodness..... cod liver oil might be healthy but it still doesnt taste any less disgusting...... im just a personality type that hates to cave. it is very personally distasteful. it makes me feel less of a person. it makes me lose respect for myself.

that being said, of course, the -only- reason im doing this is to stay in contact with her. but sometimes, i even wonder if its worth it. ive seriously thought about leaving her to them and having another child, just to make it so i dont have to deal with them anymore.

i know that wouldnt ultimately work at all, and i also know that she needs me and that i need to rescue her and that she deserves to be rescued. its the only thing that really keeps me going. i havent given up on her, my little 'wookah'. damaged though she may be.

the fact remains, i am just a very bad game player.  but no doubt - if it werent for her - they would see nothing of me but a VERY distant cloud of dust.

either way - i appreciate the input.



GFN - you said some -very- interesting things that made me think.

"Ofcourse, as hard as it is...your best bet is to NOT let it become debilitating (which is easier said than done sometimes)."

wellllllllll yes but = HOW???????? i have to interact with them twice a week on the phone and several times a year by email. its a constatnly open wound. (i have no choice re: the phone..) i feel like i spend 90% of my life energy dispersing all the emotions.  i have read past threads and tried to figure out what other people do to disperse anger. maybe i should start a whole new thread just on techniques to do that. literally, i feell as though thats all i do. still, it doesnt seem to be enough.

twice a week on the phone! thats a whole lot of contact, and it only gives me a few days to heal, and then its all open again.

i remember them house training puppies by 'rubbing their nose in it'. every time i talk to them, when ive asked them politely over and over not to force me to talk to them, they are 'rubbing my nose in it'. it rreally feels awful. i think i will start another thread on techniques to disperse fury.


you also said:

"I'm having trouble with this statement of yours: (....dealing with them truly makes me feel as though i need to hate myself.) Why do you need to hate yourself for doing whatever it takes to maintain contact with your daughter?"


this made me think a lot. the truth is,  a lot of my identity, revolves around resisting them. i remember as a very little girl my mantra "im doing this becuase -i- want to, not becuase you told me to!" i said that to myself many times a day. can you imagine.   i had to take ownership somehow, to keep my sense of self.

on another thread someone was talking about the keirsey temperament sorter - i am an 'iNTp':   "They are proud of themselves in the degree they are competent in action, respect themselves in the degree they are autonomous, and feel confident of themselves in the degree they are strong willed." this is me exactly.

AUTONOMY is everything to me.  i loathe submitting to people i dont respect. the constant message they give with their disrespect of me, is that i am not only not worthy of love, but that i am actually supposed to despise myself.  its their 'subtext' of all these disrespectful messages. (for instance, it was just my birthday, and they did not allow my girl to send me a present or even a card.  clear message: you are not worth crap.)

HOWEVER - you are very correct, that i need to give myself more credit and shift focus.  i do use email as much as possible with them, and also BCC my emails to sympathetic others so that there will be witnesses if they are unreasonable. this was a great tactic becuase they did pull quite a bit of crap at first, but when they found out that people were witnessing it, it made it harder. so that was semi-effective.

thanks for the advice and i do think i will start a specific thread on ways people have found to channel anger. :}



flowergirl - you wrote - so many helpful things.

"I'm sure she really really appreciates how hard you are working to stay in her life."

this, is what would make it all worthwhile.for her to know i fought for her. thats why im doing all of this horrible crap.  and yes, i am =not= mean in real life.  i was a housecleaner for many years, and never one time killed a spider!!!!! i would catch those  things and carry them outside every time. i really think for the most part i doint misdirect my feelings...... (i hit pillows & stuff though) sometimes i feel like hurting myself but i havent dont that either.. although i have felt like ending it, 4-5 times over the last years, due to the helplessness/shame/remorse/guilt etc.  id much rather talk than do that though. i totally believe, there is always a choice... we always have a choice..

but still, ive come up short when i try to find people to teach me constructive ways to be mad. there just isint much out there accepting of it. people always want you to get past it or get rid of it, but theres not a lot of advice on how to constructively *feel* it and deal with it.

im sure people here have a wealth of experience so im going to see what i can find out.



Mia -  i really appreciate your prayers.  yes i scream when im alone. thats a good suggestion.



longtire - you are one brave sweetheart to write to me after what i did last time. you are now my hero as well. (also, i think you are an iNTj did you say? im an iNTp!) yes - the 'acting' suggestion. a good one. i have heard that one before. that is a lot of how i get through it right now, is to act. i wish i wasnt such a horribly lousy actor.

but, its a lot of what i rely on. i just feel as though i am lying! but.... you do what you have to i guess...... when you are dealing with sick people, being healthy just doesnt work....... i like your idea of choosing, rather than being forced. must be an 'NT' thing :}}

all of your support has really helped me get through this morning. i was at the point of getting out the razorblades - really - there are times - when i really want to hurt myself in a real way.....

i am so glad, i have found human beings to talk with ......

i know this makes me sound as though im angry all the time, it isnt true, im just full of gross negative energy becuase its constantly getting dumped on me and as fast as i bail it out, more comes in....... i wish i could get far away from them but i cant. my coping strategies are not there yet except to totaly disengage. without that, im not so good.

thanks so much for your thoughts all of you..........
d's mom

[Anonymous]

Hello again Anna:

Well....I'm certainly no expert on how to disperse anger but I have one idea, which I think might help and maybe others will post a few ideas, and after awhile....maybe you'll have lot's of ideas to pick and choose from and possibly implement to help you with this difficulty.

For one thing....I'm wondering if your anger might be somewhat of a habit???

These people continuously push your buttons....they know where all of the buttons are and exactly how to upset you....they get a kick out of it (it seems) and they are just about expert at getting to you (and you may not even openly react but you'd be surprised how they can tell...by little silences....by your breathing......by a lack of a comment....that sort of thing).

Anyway.....if....every time they push a button......the reaction you feel is anger...then after awhile....that becomes a kind of habit, right?  You expect them to do stuff that makes you mad and they, enjoying every minute, go ahead and do that.

So then....the thing to do is to break the habit (and the only way to do that is to try, try and try again).  It will take practice but it is a choice that you can decide to work on.

What if......the next time they say something on the phone that would normally make you seethe.......what if you have a plan already in your head (which you have practiced ahead of time---talking to the mirror, silently to yourself, written out 3000 times, whatever)....what if you say to yourself, silently, something like:....."they have worms in their nostrils"??

So...instead of instantly feeling angry......you have this picture of them with slimey green worms (the worms have smiles on their faces too) wiggling about, just hanging around, etc etc.  It is almost funny, isn't it?  And it is definately distracting, right?

Ofcourse, this is a ridiculous suggestion but the point is that if you can find some way to PREVENT yourself from feeling angry to begin with, there will be nothing to disperse....no accumulation of rage....notta.

What do you think?  Can you think of some picture/words/combination that you can train yourself to call up....whenever these idiots try to induce your anger??  If so....you will be the one benefitting and they will be NOT getting what they want (and may not even know it!!! )

(I love that little guy....he's soooooo green!!!)

I think maybe what you are after is a way to deal with these goofs without feeling the burning desire to murder, which I totally empathize with and understand where you're coming from because I think I've experienced a similar episode or twelve, myself.

My suggestion is that by allowing them to incite this powerful nasty set of feelings in you.....you are allowing them to win.

I don't like caving either so I get it.  Don't let these people even have the satisfaction of making you mad!   In a way.....that is caving too.

Good luck!

GFN

[Anonymous]

d's mom,

I don't enjoy caving in. I don't enjoy submitting to another's will. I don't enjoy doing things I don't want to do. It's not in my personality either.  I'm not a doormat. Unfortunately adult life requires some caving in. Because we have decided that for the good of another person, because we care about that person, and we are able to "take it" because we're an adult, we do what we have to do.

Anger and fury can be expressed healthily by venting to others, through art, exercise, any creative activity. And by deciding how much anger we feel like carrying around and whether we can let go of some of it. It is a decision I've made many times once my rage has subsided.

bunny

[Brigid]

D's Mom,
I think there are lots of good ideas for channeling anger being expressed here.  I'm dealing with anger over my lack of a divorce settlement right now, but that comes no where near the kind of fury I would feel if it had something to do with my children.  If I did not feel that I had good control over how this divorce situation would play out where my kids were concerned, I'm not sure what I could be capable of.  I would be like a trapped mother bear and it would not be pretty.  You have to be concerned about your child's health and well-being and you have no control and you are her mom and I cannot imagine being in that situation.

If I were in your shoes, my anger would have to be channeled into action.  I feel there should be somewhere you could go or someone to talk to who could help you with this from a legal standpoint.  Have you tried a legal aid society or contacting a nearby college with a law school.  I'm grasping at straws here, but I feel your helplessness and desperation and want to offer some suggestions, however lame they may be.

Please don't give up on your daughter.  She needs you and you're the only hope she has.  I'm continuing with those prayers for you both.

Brigid

[mum]

Anna: I just reread what I wrote, and I know I am hard to follow....bear with me, for if I edit too much, I will lose my passion and train of thought.

I feel for you.  I know injustice, and the frustration and anger it produces.  My own anger almost did me in, and my situation wasn't nearly as tough as yours (by a long shot....not even close).
I hesitate to  tell you this, as I have great intuition and mine tells me you are a sensitive person, who truly has been taken for a ride by others.  
But, and I am not sure how to express this succinctly, I know from my own experience, that anger, helplessness, overwhelm, and PAIN (the big umbrella of all negative emotions) surely attract and produce more of the same.  Please don't read this as: "once more, this is all my fault."  
I did that when I first discovered this, and it set me WAY back, let me tell you.
IT is NOT your fault.  YES, you were a victim....and you should SAY IT....LOUD and clear!  This is a great place to do it!  YES!!  Like I said before, step one, "this S**T stinks!!!!"

So are you ready for step two? (it involves taking your power back and no longer identifying yourself as a victim). Maybe you are not ready, and that's totally cool.  I hung around thinking that life stunk for quite some time and later announcing it as well (very important)!!!!  Step two is tough, as, I think GFN said, we get "stuck" in our pain and it becomes a habit.  Totally human and understandable. (good news, habits are learned...and thus replaceable).

Funny thing is, my own life situation hasn't changed THAT much, but it IS changing and it WILL some more. WHY?  Because although I am still standing in S**T (to keep going with our wonderful metaphor) , I see the nice green grass ahead, upon which to clean it off....and then I see a new pair of shoes, too!!

Anyway, I could bore you to tears with this, but I am the one who changed.  The awful person/people who are trying, undyingly it seems, to "punish" me (for WHAT??) will not change and are now in a downward spiral. Giving up on them changing was crucial to my health.  I still hold hope for him/them, as all of us can get in touch with the devine, but I won't hold my breath!

Ok, my situation changing has taken longer than I wanted it to....but it boils down to faith.  I believe....in myself, in goodness, and in love.  Those things prevail. There are good people in the world, and those people believe in me.  I think people here believe in you, Anna.  I know I do.
The good  things I WILL hang my hat on. And I will NOT count on "everything always going wrong" (even though it sure looks that way sometimes.)

Someday, when I figure out how to best explain this, I'll write it all down. In the meantime, I hope you will see, at least a glimpse, of how beautiful your life will be.  It will happen.  When you start seeing those little bits of light through the fog of your pain, you will find a path toward it........and then you can take little steps.  

I know it sounds so airy fairy...if you met me, you wouldn't think I was an airy fairy type at all (so you would really laugh) but I do believe in love, and Anna, you have it!!!  Do you know how powerful it is?  How powerful you already are BECAUSE you LOVE???
((((Anna))))).  It is your love for your daughter that is the unstoppable forward motion of goodness in your life.  Anything is possible because of it!!!

[d's mom]

GFN! so much to think about. first of all - i must know, how i can use those little smileys???? (other than that one) i cant make them work!! i must know!! how else can i properly emote.


"For one thing....I'm wondering if your anger might be somewhat of a habit???"


hmmmmm i thought about this one alllll day.  i think for sure...... if not a habit, its definitely a pattern. no doubt about that. its definitely a pattern.  they know what they can do to me, and how to use my feelings against me. theyve done it since before i could talk.  its a supreme zen challenge to disengage while still in their physical presence - but i know im up to it. if its phrased as a challenge or something enjoyable, i can rise to anything.



"What if......the next time they say something on the phone that would normally make you seethe.......what if you have a plan already in your head (which you have practiced ahead of time---talking to the mirror, silently to yourself, written out 3000 times, whatever)...  So...instead of instantly feeling angry......you have this picture of them with slimey green worms (the worms have smiles on their faces too) wiggling about, just hanging around, etc etc. It is almost funny, isn't it? And it is definately distracting, right?"


yes it was funny. :}}> i like the idea of practicing and discipline, it really helps me get things done, so that is appealing.... what i do right now (this isnt as funny, but maybe it is) while im waiting for el witcho to answer the phone is i envision myself poking her in the eye with a fork.

thats kinda funny :} ..

to me anyway. (maybe not as funny as worms with smiley faces but, what is??)  also, i dont engage her in any conversation wahtsoever. she tries to babble at me and i just dont say =anything=. i just politely wait til they put on the kid.  i do different breathing techniques before and after (and during) the call to get calm and centered and that helps. im practically obsesive with all these techniques to stay calm. it takes a ton of energy to stay calm! im still working at it.

at first, i would be up all night throwing up... and having horrendous nightmares.... just the fact that i can get through it and then go on to actually eat, and sleep, is huge progress. thats how deeply it affected me at first.

either way - ive thought a lot today about the concept of them sucking me into their little private black hole and how i can prevent that from happening. its most definitely a pattern and they are most definitely attempting to force me to participate, and i can most definitely cultivate ways to decline, with babysteps, discipline, and the help of a suport system :}.


"I think maybe what you are after is a way to deal with these goofs without feeling the burning desire to murder...."


thats the idea. much better to not even go there. as i said - monster zen challenge. having a support system will help. my brain is just fried beyond comprehension.


"My suggestion is that by allowing them to incite this powerful nasty set of feelings in you.....you are allowing them to win.  I don't like caving either so I get it. Don't let these people even have the satisfaction of making you mad!"


boy you know how to motivate me dont you! they will never win. but within my own mind..... its very deep and difficult. maybe it is the PTSD. i ahve very bad nightmares a lot. the feelings are awful deep.

these perspectives were very helpful to me and gave me an awful lot to think about.

i appreciate the green smiling worm idea and think i get the picture.  staying positive and maintaining control of my own emotional turf is where its at i think...... im jsut real worn out on it and need a support system.... my mental game is kinda fried from doing it so long myself..

thanks again GFN
Anna