= unbeleivable =

[d's mom]

Hi october!! im finally got a break and can get some answers back on this thread. thanks so much for answering me :} it just really means a lot not to feeeel soooo aloooooone!!!!

Can you not enforce this month stay?  If it is agreed with the courts, can they not have a say in this at all?

unfortunately that was our agreement -originally-..... but its not the one enforceable by law. becuase they knew the judge and called in a favor - (they did) the final ruling was that all contact between us was 'at their discretion'.  

if they dont like what i do on any given day, they dont have to let me have any contact at all...... not by phone, not by mail.. so pretty much i have no legally enforceable rights at all.   they could decide tomorrow i never see her again. as a matter of fact they came very close to sending her to boarding school, right after they took her! i raised a big stink and they were forced to stop those plans. the only reason i have any contact at all is just force of will and kissing -ss. so, i dont really have any choice but to take what they give.. right now.

its painful for me, but they dont even stop to think what it does to delphine... kids need to know what they can rely on.... they do not exist to be used as bait. but thats all she is to them. shes just a big fat peice of anna-bait.  shes been there three years and shes never gotten a birthday party.

doesnt that suck? my stepsisters little brat has parties with twenty kids - and my daughter is expected to -babysit- them - but she doesnt even get a -cake- on her own birthday. ive even bought birthday stuff, invitations and plates and napkins and things and mailed it, telling them to let me know 'how the party was'. (hint hint) she tells me she 'wasnt allowed to use them'. its just blows me away. maybe i should have let her go to boarding school.....

It must be very tempting to get your daughter for those two weeks, and take her abroad and stay there.  Fantasy is a wonderful thing!!!!!!!  

you know it!!!!! :}   i think about that all the time! theyd find me though. hes too rich and has connections. so, i have to do what i do within the system for now :}}

And if I were you I would continue with the first name; he is an adult; you are an adult.  First names are fine.  Ignore the rest.

If you go back to 'dad' you put him back into the parent position, of power.  I don't think that would be a good move.  Well done for making him reveal his true self!!!!!

 

thanks october :} im with you. i think i'll stick with first names for now. theres no reason for otherwise. he gives me no reason.

thanks so much for letting me talk some of this out :}}}}}}
anna + delphine

[d's mom]

What will you do now?

Obviously not call him ‘Dad’! or maybe you should? If you call him ‘Dad’ from now on, he’ll think he’s ‘won’ but then he’ll reconsider and know you’re just doing it to take the mickey out of his insecurity.  Yeah, call him Dad, that’s what he wants and it will show that actually, it doesn’t even matter to you. In fact, it might be worth doing a really over-the-top apology. “I’m so sorry, I didn’t realise that my calling you Dad was so important, I hope I haven’t upset you Dad.”

Maybe not. But I don’t know. Dealing with people like this, whatever we do will be interpreted in their own crazy way so we might as well do as we wish, if it helps us.

hi Portia :}

thats the bottom line... there is nothing i could do that would ever be alright. the only thing thats 'alright' is that he calls the shots, whatever those shots are. he would bitch if i said the sky was blue...  i could say two different things on two different days.. the only thing important to him, is that im doing what he tells me.

any kind of apology, wouldnt really fit in the context of our relationship.... he knows i hate his guts for one thing.. and i think i would die from throwing up too much.....  

he cut me out of the will, put me on the street and did the whole "i have no son/daughter" thing more than twenty years ago.... so for him to make any fuss over what i choose to call him, after all of this, is pretty out of place on his part.

Also I guess you’re not a ‘personal friend’? Oh I could go on about that email. But what’s the use.

I know! he was so confused he didnt even know what he was talking about. that STILL makes me laugh like crazy. its very very rare to see the 'underbelly of the beast'. that was a rare and fulfilling glimpse.

The important thing is what will/can you do about the 2 weeks vs. a month?

nothing i can do. i just have to get the resources together to either challenge their guardianship, or change the terms. that will take money, and guts.

thanks for helping me out and letting me talk. i appreciate all your advice and comments and friendship. in real life i feel like a leper a lot of the time.

take care portia
Anna + delphine

[d'smom]

Wow, talk about a dismissive tone!  I get similar e-mails from my mom-- I call it the "off with her head!" approach.  Royalty has spoken.

you nailed it! > off with her head! exactly. ive collected frogs all my life.... i like frogs. when they first did this, for some reason they gave me this awful ceramic frog, that had no head.

i still dont know why. ive wanted to smash that thing more times than i can count. right now its buried in my closet but it would be really nice to smash the cr*p out of it. i really felt thats what it symbolised. my powerlessness. off with her head. ick!

In the e-mail it is pretty clear what this man thinks of your desires and opinions.  He even pronounced  HIS idea (and by contrast, not yours!) "reasonable."  Thus spake him.

bless you forever for recognising that. a lot of people are fooled by that 'reasonableness'.

As for the "don't call me Bruce" thing, it was sort of funny at the end there-- almost like he was pulling back in a way, a little teeny bit aware that he was sounding ridiculous.  Not that he can ever truly be aware of that.  But even that part of the letter had the "I am not(w) declaring from the throne" tone to it.  Certainly isn't a conversation, is it?  You don't get to decide what to call him with your own mouth.  I guess he's in charge of that, too.

weve never had a conversation in 39 years... i am so not kidding..... not... once.... ever.....  thast why its so ridiculous he thinks i should call him 'dad' or anything for that matter. he doesnt know a thing about me.

he edges from narcissism into cult leader frequently. he really feels he gets to tell people what to think -and- feel. he truly believes that..... other peoples lives, feelings, problems, opinions,  are mere annoyances.

communication is totally a one way street with him. im just so glad others can see that.. finally....
almost cant believe it.... only sorry there are -others- like him......
take care vunil
Anna + Delphine

[d's mom]

Hiya Anna: What if you were to ask him a few questions such as:

"What is a dad?
Is it just a title, or a way to act/behave toward a child?
How do you feel when I don't call you dad?
How do you feel when I do call you dad?.....

Makes me sooo curious to see what his answers would be!!!!

hi GFN. :}}  (first of all about editing the names: im not concerned about that. but if others are, i'll respect that. )

about your questions..... yup that was my first feeling.... id love to ask questions like that...... id love to know.....  they are normal questions that normal humans would want answered... thats why of course, i could never ask him any of them........ :} but, they are definitely the questions that first came to my mind......

his answers would be to either totally ignore me or probably totally ignore me. he wouldnt even waste his valuable time with being dismissive or condescending. just an icy silence. no doubt about it.

But...........you are wanting something from him......a month visit with your child.......and he is demanding something from you....to be called dad.  I wonder if it might be possible to trade?

"Since I want to visit my child for a month, and since you want me to call  you Dad, do you think we could trade?  I love my child and I am her mom and the agreement was that I will visit with her for one month.   Are you my dad?  Do you love me?  Is that why you want me to call you dad?  How about if I visit with my child for one month, as agreed?  I could call you dad, if you acted like you loved me/understood love for a child and showed it by doing what was agreed.   How about being like a dad to me?"

its something to think about............... im thinking about how i could work that into the 'conversation'. if he keeps being irked by me calling him bruce maybe i could find a way to work it in. i could certainly honestly tell hm that i dont see that hes acting like a dad in any way at all and that if he wanted to act more like a dad, id be happy to call him one. pretty much, we only talk about twice a year, in emails like the one you saw. so theres not a lot of talking going on.

but id have no problem saying that......

This might just be me venting on your behalf.  

i appreciate that

(You can always call him dad without meaning it!!)

hes such a jerk. like mum says:

Nidiot.
Nasshole.
Npoophead.
Njerk.
Ncreep.

i think ill call him what i feel like.. 'bruce' is perfectly cordial. he can shove it up his --- if he doesnt like it. theres no way he can say to anyone thats its disrespectful. i think i will call him very politely (hah) bruce, and if he doesnt like it, maybe he will treat me better.  (unlikely) if not, it will bug the crap out of him and that will make my day.

thanks gfn for all of your support.
A + D

[d's mom]

I don't think it's unbelievable or even surprising. You provoked him by calling him Bruce and he reacted. You must have known he wouldn't like it.

hi bunny.. thanks for your comment.

actually, i was -totally- surprised.....  i had no idea he 'cared' in the least.... he is being very 'dog in the manger'-ish about it.....

i notice a lot of people here have very difficult relatives and a lot of problems with them, but still maintain a relationship where calling their parent by their first name might seem out of place or strange.. but that isnt how it is in our family.......

they actually disowned me, (and my brother also), cut us both out of the will, before we were both 18....... so, he said twenty years ago or more, that he didnt want me as his daughter anymore.. we had no contact after that at all, even when i was in the hospital needing surgery for a brain injury... my friend called him by mistake not knowing 'how things were' and my father hung up on my friend.... not knowing if i was even going to live or not.  

so, he very much didnt care about having a daughter in the least, for the vast majority of my life. i struggled through a helluva lot and he was noooooowhere around. for most of my life, i referred to him as 'the jewish nazi' no kidding. (no offense against any nice jewish people.)

sooooo its really pretty hypocritical for him to make any fuss about me calling him 'dad' or not, after all of that.... i really think.

the only time we ever had what i thought was any kind of relatonsip was when he was 'buttering me up' getting me vulnerable to get my daughter... so i guess that was  pretty much an act... and after that, its all been in the context of him kicking my ass legally and in every other way and treating me like sh*t.

we only talk maybe twice a year and its all i can do not to tell him what i really think.  sooooo..... i think hes pretty lucky im polite enough to call him 'bruce' frankly.... if he is going to be 'offended' at something so stupid - i think he needs to grow up and deal with it.

i mean really. get a life!!!!! hes sixty something years old and hes gonna get a bee in his bonnet over something that stupid?????? we have a very icy relationship and hes lucky i call him bruce at this point. the reality is, it makes him look at what a crappy father he is, and thats what bugs him about it.....
you know.
anyway .... just explaning. thanks bunny :}
Anna + D.

[d'smom]

hi gingerpeach, what a beautiful name.

Maybe you should call him Dr. G and then he'd really know how you feel.  I mean if you call him Bruce, you're admitting to being his "friend."

eek!!!!

i hadnt thought of that.

My exNH always signed his cards and notes to me .... " Love from your  husband John Smith."  Even love letters.   Like maybe I wasn't sure which John was my husband? Weird.

You have my sympathy.  I hope that it won't be too long before your daughter is able to make her own decisions with regard to where she lives.

they are all the same... how very weird. maybe he just like seeing his name all the time... urg.

i pray everyday, that she will see the truth and be able to get away herself. they are brainwashing her heavily, like she is in a cult. they learned alot about abuse, since i was a kid..... they are a lot more sophisticated.... they used to beat me and stuff that was very easy to know was wrong.. but with her, its very subtle and 'reasonable' and they have convinced her they are the 'normal' ones and everything they are doing is ok and normal... while hurting her on these really subtle levels that are really hard to detect and report.....

she is very confused and basically brainwashed becase the things they do are so very subtle and smooth. its even more scary than when he was just an out of control drunk like he used to be. and i think its going to be much more damaging in the long run.. eventually she is going to discover  how they were just using her, and all of this was lies, and its really going to mess her up. im not looking forward to that.. although, i really want her to find out the truth too.

instead they are just grooming her to believe that being treated like crap is normal. its tough to watch, and i hope she can get through it. it helps her if i can stay strong, and being here is helping me stay strong already.

thanks a lot for the wishes gingerpeach.
A + D.

[d's mom]

Anna, your "father's"emails about time with your daughter sound eerily like my ex's. Are they all the same?  I know why you sound so compliant and reasonable in your letters.....you must.  I have to play the same game.

Didn't he say people who really want to annoy him call him Dr......?  Do that!!! No, seriously, he doesn't deserve "dad".... not while he "owns" your daughter and keeps her from you.

Bless you Anna

hi mum. ! hope you are doing ok. i think they -are- all the same. its a sickness!!!!! it infests their brain. all they want is to pass it on to others. its so gross.

can you imagine. i hate being 'compliant' like that.  i want to tell him where he can stick it. but.. i will have to wait a few more years......... when my daughter finds out what they really did to us.... im not sure how long it will take.. but when she finds out....she will not be happy.... at all.... they can act nicey nicey but they cant keep it up. one day she will see the whole picture and she will be piiiiisssseeeddd off.....

even if i have to wait until she has her own kids.. one day she'll understand, what they did. when she finally has her own kids she will fully understand.

its just sad that they have to do this, waste her life, waste my life. its sad.
thanks for your help mum. hope your doing ok.
A + D.

[promqueencasualty]

H. Call him ‘Dad’ – he’ll know you don’t mean it and that you’re doing it to patch his weak spot. That will irk him. That you’re strong and he isn’t.

Dear d's mom,

I only have 30 seconds in front of my computer this morning, so I will write more later---but when you email this SOB again in the future, what would happen if you addressed him as "Dad"--with the quotes included? If you really wanted to get to him(or just have a little fun messing with him), I think that the quotes would drive him bonkers, because they imply that you don't think he has or is behaving in a manner worthy of having that title bestowed upon him. I also think he would deem the inclusion of the quotes to be condescending(and N's hate being condescended to! they always need to feel superior). It would take some of the power away from him, maybe?
Just a thought---I know that you have your daughter's welfare to consider above all else, so I wouldn't want you to do anything to compromise that. Keep fighting the good fight---I'm sending my thoughts and good wishes your way.

PQC
(((((d's mom))))

[Anonymous]

Anna,

I understand that your father is extremely abusive. I'm just saying that your decision to write a letter asking for more time with your daughter, calling him "Bruce" for the first time, was almost certain to backfire. It sabotaged the intent of the letter. The point isn't the name Bruce but the road you embarked upon, of provoking him while asking him for something.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hiya Anna:

I'm going to try not to vent (after this) here for the moment.  Not that I don't want to vent with/for you.  Just that I'm trying to use my noggin for more than a toboggan, as the saying goes.

shes just a big fat peice of anna-bait.  shes been there three years and shes never gotten a birthday party.

And he....and I don't say this lightly, as a matter of fact..I dislike labels and labelling people without the proper credentials to do so, but he......

.....is behaving as a

sociopathiologicallycruelsickevilmindedNinfectedsadisticpowerhungrycontrollingcutthroatheartlessba#$%^rdbraindeadwickedselfishvilenutbar...

if I've ever heard of one.

But.......the bottom line is ...what do you want most?

1.  To bug him by calling him whatever name you choose?
2.  To play his game against him by making him "think" he's winning and giving you "crumbs" you ask for?

I agree with Bunny.  It's p@#$%ing him off when you call him Bruce.  No matter how tempting that is......the more important, more pressing, more essential thing to worry about is getting what you want in regards to your daughter.  Whatever crumbs the...........

(put adjectives of choice here______________________________________________________________________________________________________)

decides to give, for now.

Until you are able to beat him in the courts, in the system...and get what you want extended to something reasonable (not crumby...pun intended).

You can call him whateverthe____you want, later.

For now......don't let him goad you into behaving the way he wants to present you to others.

Kill him with kindness.

GFN

[Anonymous]

Very sorry to put that big long thing in there and widen up this screen.
Had no idea that would happen but I guess that's what it did??

Ooops!  

Is there a way to fix it, I wonder?

GFN

[vunil as guest]

oooh, GFN, good post (width notwithstanding)!


I agree that getting back at him would be super-fun.  But let's go for the big guns-- getting the daughter back, and then maybe something else I haven't thought of yet.  But definitely custody.  Good first step... And we can call him all kinds of fun stuff here on the board!

[d's mom]

But.......the bottom line is ...what do you want most?

1.  To bug him by calling him whatever name you choose?
2.  To play his game against him by making him "think" he's winning and giving you "crumbs" you ask for?

.....For now......don't let him goad you into behaving the way he wants to present you to others.

hi guys.. i appreciate the venting and stuff..... (but not the widened screen though! but the vent was cool) i think you are missing the point though a bit...

im -not- calling him bruce to bug him. thats just a byproduct. you saw from my original post, i was -totally- surprised at his reaction. he -disowned- me 20 years ago. he left me on the street to DIE.  doesnt that kind of say he doesnt -really- care about being my 'dad'??.  thats not just 'abusive' - thats legally giving up the right to be someones dad. he -disowned- me.

i didnt do what i did beucase of anything except my own honest reaction to not giving a crap anymore.  it had nothing to do with getting any reaction or bothering him... it was just an honest expression of who i am these days, and personally, i -didnt- think he would even notice it. it just shows how ridiculously ovesensitive he is and hung up on meaningless details.

i call him bruce when i talk to my therapist, i call him bruce when i talk to my daughter, i call him bruce when i talk to my mother.  its part of the wall, that protects me from them. its been that way for months and months.  i do it for me. as far as i understand, the 'requirement' im supposed to follow in communications to him, is being  'cordial'.  so within those boundaries, what i wrote was totally and completely acceptable.  theres nothing he can 'present' to anyone in what i wrote, that he can label as un-cordial in the slightest bit, and he knows it.

he knows perfectly well i hate him.  can he not allow me a single shred of self respect and dignity? ive kissed his ass for three years and he still treats my daughter like dirt, so the entertainment value is really waning.

ive held my tongue til it made me sick..... ive played that game, very very well.... and laid enough real-time groundwork that everyone is starting to see that I deserve more respect than hes given me.  theres not one person in my real life, who feels that what i call him, is of the slightest concern.  i told you i ran that letter by my mother, who is a professional writer, and she didnt even mention it.

ive played this situation like a poker hand.  im no dummy you guys.  my self respect tells me its time to stand up, and let him know that i am his equal. ive carefully and purposefully shown to everyone involved by my actions during these years, that i deserve that respect. NOONE can say im unreasonable now. he is stuck. he is very much starting to look like the bad guy and the unreasonable one himself.  two years ago, not deferring would have definitely compromised my position... as of now, i think it will strengthen it... i need to show him, im an adult, im his equal, im standing up for myself, i expect and deserve more respect from him.

the biggest reason it actually bugged him, its actually something that gives me personal power, but that he cant (and he knows it) point out to anyone as being 'crazy' or 'unreasonable'. its actually a perfectly cordial and appropriate thing to say on my part.  thats why it was such a powerful thing to actually do. he said it himself, he is called bruce by 'personal friends'. :}>  there actually wasnt a damn thing wrong with it, except that it makes -me- feel better about myself, and lessens his one-upsmanship.  he -cant- use it as evidence of my 'unreasonableness'. i think thats why it was so powerful.

sometimes you just have to face the monster and thats what im doing.  if i continue to grovel more than i need to, he will continue to treat me like dirt more than i deserve. ive carefully shown by my actions, including kissing a -whole- lot of ass, that i deserve consideration. so if he doesnt come across, HE will start to look like the unreasonable one.  him being irked, is a total and complete byproduct. its also HIS responsibility, not mine. if i were to 'defer' in this situation, without him giving me some concession in return, it would be pandering to a bully, and thats a very bad idea and leads to escalation of bullying.  

the advice you gave, to play the game no matter how sick it made me, -would- have been very appropriate two years ago, when i was much more vulnerable and he had more control.. and thats definitely what ive been doing, and thats why im so damn sick right now, honestly.  but at this stage, i have laid that groundwork and its now time for me to stand up a little and take some of what i earned. not only that, but he has shown me by his reactions, that 'playing the game' his way doesnt really get me anything but more disrespect. and thats the truth.

you guys also missed the point, that im getting -two weeks-.

i called him bruce and pissed him off, but i got the longest visit ever out of it. so.....?????? two weeks isnt a month, but its a lot longer than any visit weve had in the past.

so im not so sure it was a bad idea. sometimes, you have to call the bluff.

bullies -are- cowards. he is terrified of me. and I have proven by my actions]/b] and a lot of hard work that I deserve respect. if he doesnt give it, -he- will look bad. so I feel like getting up off my knees for awhile.

i hope that makes sense. i really appreciate your input. this is a complicated situation like all family situations are, and your advice was good, i just think im at a different stage now. i hope you can understand where im coming from. i -am- playing the game... believe me. im playing with everything i have.
thanks so much all i really appreciate the thoughts
Anna

[vunil as guest]

Hey, Anna--

Part of the problem is we don't know the whole story, which sure does seem complicated.  AND we can't know your personal needs.  Absolutely, if you got something out of calling him Bruce, however small, and it didn't seem to hurt you, then cool!  I just want some big old victory over him, too.  One month, and then forever....

I understand your expectation that he would respond some way  that looks halfway rational.  And he sure isn't!  He is definitely an asshole.

But maybe he does respond to being pushed back. I alternate between the avoidance and the push-back tactics with N's (pushing back primarily at work, where you have to).  Sometimes pushing back does make it less fun for them to be terrible to you and they go find someone else to pick on.  If you think that's true of Bruce (why call him dad here?) then maybe it is worth it to be a little up in his face now and again.  It's hard for us to say...  I do think you should be as up in his face as possible through legal means, which I know you are doing.

Anyway, mostly it isn't our words that matter, it's what is beneath them, which is:

{{{Anna}}}

[d's mom]

Hey, Anna--

Part of the problem is we don't know the whole story, which sure does seem complicated.  AND we can't know your personal needs.  Absolutely, if you got something out of calling him Bruce, however small, and it didn't seem to hurt you, then cool!  I just want some big old victory over him, too.  

wasnt somebody saying something about steel toed boots awhiles ago...?//  
i think i may avoid the whole thing by calling him nothing whenever possible. why not?
its really no skin of my nose one way or the other.
i could address it to 'that asshole that lives down south' for all i truly care!>   he'll probly be ticked if i just dont say anything either. he just likes to be ticked. it really had nothing to do with annoying him.
it was totally 'serendipitous' that that came out of it.

But maybe he does respond to being pushed back. I alternate between the avoidance and the push-back tactics with N's (pushing back primarily at work, where you have to).  Sometimes pushing back does make it less fun for them to be terrible to you and they go find someone else to pick on.

one thing true, is that ns are predictable in -some- ways...
they have big blind spots and -can- be played.....
im trying to learn how to play -him- the most beneficial way.....
its kind of like baiting a bear....or bullfighting.. (bullshitfighting?)

Anyway, mostly it isn't our words that matter, it's what is beneath them, which is: {{{Anna}}}

ohhhh.... your a dear sweetie. thank you.
{{{((((vunil))))}}}