borderline combined with narcissism

[vunil]

Hi, all--

I got some excellent advice from folks here suggesting that some of the behaviors of my family/friends was borderline as well as N.  Now I am reading Walking on Eggshells, and boy were you guys right.

I am seeing my mom and sister in there, and a myriad of friends and... myself in my 20's and early 30's.  Weird to realize this, and nice to realize that now I am not that way at all.  One big difference between BPD traits and N traits is that people do get better from BPD, with lots of help (therapy, meds, successes in life, maturity).  Or at least some do.  My mom is much less volatile and borderline than she used to be, but the N has gotten worse, not better.  It's hard to believe now what a shreiking maniac she was when I was a kid.  Now she is more into the silent condemnation and random disapproval, still borderline in spirit I guess but not so super-crazy.

Part of my secret fear is becoming a mother like her. I feel like I have less than 6 months to make sure that doesn't happen!  Argh!

But I wanted to know if others have experience with the combination of BPD and N?  Is it possible that a narcissistic family induces more patience with (and tendency toward) borderline tendencies?  I sure have had a lot of borderline friends.  I can't seem to stand them all of a sudden, which I think means personal growth on my part, and maybe lack of energy to deal with b.s. anymore.  And I feel as if I'm suddenly seeing them for the first time.  Maybe I can't stand them because they remind me of my fear of what I could be.  Or maybe I'm afraid it's contagious?  I want to only be around people who act the way I want to act, especially as a parent.

This is not a very focused thread-starter, sorry.  I just want to hear other people's stories of borderline loved ones and friends I also want to know about the interplay between N tendencies and borderline personalities.  It helps to hear what other people have gone through and how they processed it.

thanks!
Vunil

[Stormchild]

I sure have had a lot of borderline friends.  I can't seem to stand them all of a sudden, which I think means personal growth on my part, and maybe lack of energy to deal with b.s. anymore.  And I feel as if I'm suddenly seeing them for the first time.  Maybe I can't stand them because they remind me of my fear of what I could be.  Or maybe I'm afraid it's contagious?

It is definitely contagious, and there seems to be an epidemic of it lately, both BPD and NPD... and I'm only partly kidding.

There's this thing called group norms, and this other thing called re-norming. When one is in a bunch of folks who are extremely selfish and act out like banshees, and everyone else in the bunch does this, and you're the only one who doesn't, then a decision gets made, not necessarily consciously. Either one leaves the group, or one adopts its standards.

History is filled with the ashes of people who tried to have it both ways ... you can't. You'll be outed, and scapegoated, every time. (This is why whistleblowers have such a great time of it. They refuse to adapt to the norms of their group. They get punished for that - even when the group norms are incredibly destructive, or even criminal. And most folks on the outside are totally clueless, which is why it's possible for the group to label these people 'disgruntled' and blame them, and get away with it.)


Sounds as though your youthful stuff was the result of adapting to group norms that you couldn't escape, but when you saw a different option you knew it had value!

Waaaaaaaaay coooooooool     .

[Anonymous]

You won't end up like your mom since you're aware of dysfunction. If you see yourself acting out, you will notice and do something about it. Your mother chooses to remain dysfunctional and that's her option.

You're outgrowing immature, bratty, borderline friends. You have bigger fish to fry. That's how it goes. And of course you should get rid of them and only surround yourself with mature people. That is the pragmatic thing to do for yourself and baby. I'm sorry to sound harsh but it's either you or them. That's the choice that borderlines give us, not believing that we'd choose ourselves over them! Well, you can and probably will.

Keep up the good work!

bunny

[Anonymous]

Oh, and yes I've had many borderline friends due to my background of thinking that behavior was normal. I still have some, the ones who can behave. I like borderlines who are under medication and getting help. But those who try sucking the life out of me -- no. I don't have the time or patience. Unfortunately one big N-borderline is a sister so I'm stuck with her. She is crazymaking. Thank God for meds and therapists.

bunny

[vunil as guest]

Hi, Bunny--

What is your sister like?  What does she do (if you are willing to share) that is n-borderline?  How do you react?

Can you tell I am in some sort of imitative learning stage?  It seems to be how I am learning best right now, combined with lots of reading.

Thanks for your vote of confidence re: my mothering.  It does make me feel better!  Sometimes I think my baby is driving all of this-- he is just not interested in any nonsense from mom or those surrounding her, so he's getting rid of all of it before he shows up.

vunil

[vunil as guest]

Oh, and I guess it's only fair that I share a little bit of what my mom/sister/friends are like.

Basically in my childhood my mom and sister would rage randomly and dramatically about (insert reason here because hell if I know...).  My sister would throw my possessions out of the window.  She would steal my things.  My mother would go on a long rampage if she was stressed or tired-- sometimes I would hide from her.

Now they just disapprove randomly and hear things in really odd ways, making conversation strange.  My mom especially is uber-N, along with my dad, the kings and queens of all.  They aren't NPD-- they do know how to love, in their own broken way, and they don't knowingly lie.  They do unknowingly lie all the time, though, since their brains make things up.  They seem especially driven by jealousy.

As for my friends, they tend to be of the purposefully helpless types-- never managing to get things in order (big basic things like employment, getting taxes done on time, etc.) and asking for "help" all the time that they never actually follow through on.  They get angry a lot at me for what I have accomplished, as if it fell on my head one day instead of costing me years of hard work. Somehow until this minute that never bothered me that they had this anger... hmmm.   Magically, even decisions they made themselves are not their fault.  Getting pregnant on purpose from an exboyfriend, not going to the job interview, never saving for retirement, not bothering to sign up for health insurance, quitting a high-paying job for a low-paying one, all of these somehow mean they are victims of circumstance when the inevitable consequences kick in.



So that's my deal.  Anyone else?

[longtire]

Now they just disapprove randomly and hear things in really odd ways, making conversation strange.  My mom especially is uber-N, along with my dad, the kings and queens of all.  They aren't NPD-- they do know how to love, in their own broken way, and they don't knowingly lie.  They do unknowingly lie all the time, though, since their brains make things up.  They seem especially driven by jealousy.

Vunil, this describes my wife to a "t."  She told me once that she always had good intentions, so she couldn't have ever done anything wrong.  If I felt hurt, it was because I just didn't realize she had good intentions all along.  I used to think that she was just lying or pretending not to know what was going on so she could maintain her holier-than-thou position.  From what I know now, she really, really believes everything that she says.  To her it is the only possibility, there must be something wrong with me if I can't see that. When she says things like this I would like to respond, but I am in such shock that my mouth just moves up and down  because I have no idea how to respond to such statements.  These days I usually say something to avoid or delay the conversation until my brain recovers from the shock and I can think of what I want in the situation.

As for my friends, they tend to be of the purposefully helpless types-- never managing to get things in order (big basic things like employment, getting taxes done on time, etc.) and asking for "help" all the time that they never actually follow through on.  They get angry a lot at me for what I have accomplished, as if it fell on my head one day instead of costing me years of hard work. Somehow until this minute that never bothered me that they had this anger... hmmm.   Magically, even decisions they made themselves are not their fault.  Getting pregnant on purpose from an exboyfriend, not going to the job interview, never saving for retirement, not bothering to sign up for health insurance, quitting a high-paying job for a low-paying one, all of these somehow mean they are victims of circumstance when the inevitable consequences kick in.

vunil, I get this one in spades as well.  When I first told my W I wanted a divroce, her main anger seemed  to be that I had earning power.  She didn't seem upset at all that I didn't want to be married to her.  She said things like (sorry if I'm repeating these) "Must be nice to have all the financial power," and "What do you care, you'll have all the money."  I was in shock when she said these things.  She was there during much of the time when I was working my butt off in college  in my classes as well as working part time to earn money and still helping out around the house.  She was there all those years when I worked my butt off in jobs always doing more than the minimum, studying at home, etc. so I could move up.  She was there and saw all the hard work and she was saying these things now????  It blows my mind when I hear these things from her.  (I didn't set her straight at the time because I at least knew it wouldn't do any good.  Plus, I thought I was getting out of the relationship soon.  That was over a year ago now. )

[vunil as guest]

"Must be nice to have all the financial power," and "What do you care, you'll have all the money."

If that isn't a combination of N and B then I don't know what is.... It's not as if you were even talking about money!  But she assumes you are.  And all she cares about is what she gets.  

I have been there-- when I had a party at my house a number of years ago, a woman I later became good friends with (! weird me) came up to me and said "I should have this house!"  I sort of looked her like "huh?" and she said "if I had stayed in [her previous, lucrative profession] then I would have a house just like this!  But I switched to [a different, less lucrative profession] and now I can't afford a house at all!" and she sort of stared at me accusingly.  Then she said "this is the sort of house where **I** should live!"  

And the weird thing is, my response was to say things like "oh, well, I had to really stretch to afford it myself" and "oh, I had to do a lot of work on it-- it was a mess when I bought" and "oh, I still owe almost the entire mortgage" and "really it isn't very nice-- it only has two bedrooms."  When her situation was one she chose-- why did it make me feel guilty?

Seems like the same sort of mechanisms underlying this behavior (my friend's behavior)... I don't understand it really but I see parallels... do you?

[longtire]

Wow, I have read more of SWOE today and I really see my wife and myself in that book!  She has most of the behaviors described.  Notably absent are raging and "making nice."  Most of the bad and very little of the good.

"Must be nice to have all the financial power," and "What do you care, you'll have all the money."

If that isn't a combination of N and B then I don't know what is.... It's not as if you were even talking about money!  But she assumes you are.  And all she cares about is what she gets.

I think that is where a lot of the shock came from for me. The money was down the list for me.  We have enough that no one will starve or be homeless.  It is NOT life or death.  I was most concerned about my daughter first, then my wife's reaction to rejection, then all the "details" like money and possessions.

I have been there-- when I had a party at my house a number of years ago, a woman I later became good friends with (! weird me) came up to me and said "I should have this house!"  I sort of looked her like "huh?" and she said "if I had stayed in [her previous, lucrative profession] then I would have a house just like this!  But I switched to [a different, less lucrative profession] and now I can't afford a house at all!" and she sort of stared at me accusingly.  Then she said "this is the sort of house where **I** should live!"  

And the weird thing is, my response was to say things like "oh, well, I had to really stretch to afford it myself" and "oh, I had to do a lot of work on it-- it was a mess when I bought" and "oh, I still owe almost the entire mortgage" and "really it isn't very nice-- it only has two bedrooms."  When her situation was one she chose-- why did it make me feel guilty?

Seems like the same sort of mechanisms underlying this behavior (my friend's behavior)... I don't understand it really but I see parallels... do you?

First of all, you aren't wierd vunil, especially after reading more of the book.  This pattern now seems very familiar to me.  I definitely see the parallels with your story.  I'm tempted to call it jealousy, but that seems too shallow of a description.  It is more like resentment because the world is SOOOO unfair and has not given them what they "clearly" deserve yet.  Just another excuse to be angry and blame others to avoid awareness and responsibility.

[Stormchild Guesting]

I think that is where a lot of the shock came from for me. The money was down the list for me.  We have enough that no one will starve or be homeless.  It is NOT life or death.  I was most concerned about my daughter first, then my wife's reaction to rejection, then all the "details" like money and possessions.

Longtire, even when I was a little girl I thought there was something obscene - although I didn't know that was the term for it, thaat's what I felt - about women describing men as "good providers". It sounded parasitic. Now, I was little. Ten and under. And had no idea how constrained women were in their ability to provide for themselves, at that time - after all, the world I saw was full of women working, as teachers, principals, cafeteria ladies, crossing guards, school nurses, store proprietors and clerks. What did I know of relative incomes and earning potential?

But that term really bothered me, as if that were the only thing important about a man - how much he made, and how much of it a woman could get away from him.

These days, sadly, this commoditization has apparently increased and has become less gender specific.

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone,
Boy, you miss a couple of days, you miss a lot.

Stormy,

Just wanted to put in a little defense for the 'good provider' attitude. Especially years ago.
Lets face it the tendency of a lot of men is to be lazy bums. In a lot of cases, thats what seperates a good provider from a bad one. Who wants to get stuck with a bad provider? After all, a lazy bum is usually pretty useless in all aspects.
In addition I think mothers were often thinking of their kids primarily when they said that.
The standard role of the woman was to raise the kids at home.
The standard role of the man was to make enough for them to be able to afford to do that.
As you pointed out indirectly the standard roles appear to be changing.
The idealized role of both mother and father now seems to be to make enough for a European vacation, a beach house and a new bimmer every other year, and the kids can raise themselves.

mudpup

[Stormchild Guesting]

I don't disagree with you, mud, but it really gave me the creeps to see so many women who, behind closed doors, privately thought of their male life partners as little more than ambulating ATMs. That's the thing I find obscene. Shoot, look at Longtire's situation... (((longtire))).

It's not dissimilar to the obscenity I felt in high school and college when my male buddies, who could not see me as a female (a la Harry Potter, Ron, and Hermione), would go on about how they actually regarded the females in their lives whom they did see as female. Appliances, ornaments. You get the idea.

In both cases, a human being is turned into a thing. that's the obscene part.

The caring, protecting, mutual provision loving partnership aspect... now that's a whole nother kettle of excellent icthys.

[Anonymous]

Yo Storm girl,

It's not dissimilar to the obscenity I felt in high school and college when my male buddies, who could not see me as a female (a la Harry Potter, Ron, and Hermione), would go on about how they actually regarded the females in their lives whom they did see as female.

I believe one of the most horrifying things that can occur to anyone is to listen in on a conversation amongst a group solely composed of the opposite sex.
My wife's friends have occasionally forgotten I was there, and it has gotten prettttttty ugly, pretttty fast.  

"Excellent icthys" maybe that's why a good provider is also called a 'good catch'?

mud

[vunil as guest]

WOW pregnancy makes me spacey.  I had no idea I had started two threads with the same topic and title!  I remembered everyone's posts to the older one, but somehow named this one the same thing.  And said a lot of the same things in the first post.

Sorry  

I hope I can remember where I parked my car....

(ps everyone has been very helpful BOTH times )

[newbiehere]

Oh yes, let me tell you that Narcissists and many Borderlines do have this characteristic

My N and Borderline mother raised her daughters that they could wrap a rich man around their little finger, etc..

I grew up with this and even though it took with my sisters, it disgusted me.
I knew it was wrong.....
It was and still is a main priority in their lives as well.
And about them having jealousy over the objects we posess, YES, they truly do.
If I could tell you just how many times my mom has gotten jealous over something I own or even of me going out to dinner, etc.. It  makes her very angry when anyone else has anything or is going somewhere special and doing something that she is NOT a part of..
Over the years I have expected this from her, and decided to NOT tell her when I purchase something, am going somewhere special, etc.. It just provokes her to act up and go into a rage the next day.