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Parenthood?

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Nic:
Hi all,
I reflected about posting or not posting on this topic.  And obviously have decided to post in an attempt to expose feelings for which I've come to realize I feel shame.
I've never wanted children and have married a wonderful woman who is of the same opinion/choice as me..I suppose that's a good thing.  At first we did become pregnant but my wife lost the baby.  i remember feeling elated when she told me she was pregnant.  After she lost the baby neither of us felt very badly about it mainly because we hadn't really planned on having a child, it wasn't a goal.  I was however happy in a macho kinda way that I could..you know ,do it! :)  Neither had we planned on not ever having a child ever because we did not use any form of birth control odd as that may seem in the late 20th century.
My wife and I like other people's children..but somehow and because of all kinds of things, we both did not envisage becoming parents.  It just was not a part of our makeup.  It bothers me when other people see how good we both are with kids.  "Oh Nic, do you have children?"  "no.." I would answer, followed by " You'd make a great father!!!!" said with much emphasis.  My wife has always been fair with everyone especially children and yet no kids in the picture, although in her first marriage she did raise two wonderful kids and taught them well.
Yes it's an age thing but it's more also.  Having had N parents who thought they were the best at everything and who robbed me of my own childhood, i've never really put the finger on a possible hidden reason why i've never wanted any of my own..on purpose that is.
My N brother and N SIL have two children who can do no wrong, my parents constantly reminded my brother and I growing up how horrible we were as well as anyone who would listen..all of that has so completely turned me off the parenting thing.
I've seen wonderful parents, i've seen happy kids and i've seen friends adopt and have their first child with such enthusiasm..and yet all the hubbub surrounding the event just makes me queezzie..always has.
I can remember other children, friends growing up going on trips with their parents, going through crises that were handled so much more sanely than in my own family.  I remember thinking, " your family is a piece of cake , you should try mine for a while.."  I remember being jealous of the great relationships most of my friends had at home.
I suppose being put down, laughed at, being humiliated in public serially and in an uninterrupted way during most of my life didn't help.  My parents together devalued me so much that maybe I just couldn't picture myself ever growing up ENOUGH to have the same thing they did..even a child.
I've also seen people, my own brother having kids for the sole purpose of agrandizing himself and capitalizing on having procreated and that makes me sick.  My parents blamed my brother and I for everything that went wrong in their lives..we were at weekend camp and boarding school as soon as we were potty trained.  It just wasn't my parents' thing either..but successful people need to look successful in everything don't they?  My brother for instance is a terrible father, ( yes! in my opinion..) I see him mirroring my parents in almost everything he does..I guess you either beat 'em or join 'em.  You can have kids out of selfishness ( narcissism) just as you can avoid having them for the same reasons.
I have taken a good long hard look at myself and have determined that i've chosen not to have children because I was afraid to have them.  Although there is a very good chance I would have been a good father, i'm too scared to risk it.  Is that selfish?
I simply could not handle it, after all that's been done to me by the two Ns who adopted me, i simply could not take it if I unconsciously or worse consciously inflicted that kind of pain on a child.
And so, I'm very nice and attentive with other people's kids, loving even and I enjoy them very much.  However, and this is weird, sometimes I'll see a child doing something I did when I was 5 or 6, craving attention for example, or being cutsey in a manipulative way and I panic.  Because I flash back to when I craved attention and how that was met with beratement and humiliation  by my own parents.  When that happens I feel very very guilty and very ashamed.
And when i'm in that situation I realize that I've let my parents take up one more awful moment of my time and I'm left once again alone to climb out of the hole.  What a number they pulled on me...I'm handicapped when it comes to even considering becoming a parent and that's why I think I shouldn't have kids.  My upbringing has annihilated that possibility.  I will not experiment with a baby's life like they did because there's at least a 50% chance i'll screw it up.
Kind of like castrating rapists..just in case..as a deterrant.   And yet far, very very deep inside myself I think I could have been a good father.
Not to be..
P.S.  I've never shared this demon of mine with anybody other than my wife.  I hope you (pl.) will not find it too repulsive. I think it's normal to have children for normal people..I guess i'm not normal in this sphere, sadly so.
Nic :oops:

Acappella:
Hi Nic,

I find your desire to not have children SOOOOO NOT REPULSIVE.

You are treating them (and yourselves) like the human life that they/you are rather than a biological right or imparitive, a concept.  You are, obviously my opinion, treating your life and theirs with respect.  

Repulsive?  Repulsive are some of the results of us humans not having time for quality caring for one another and for the world we live in.  I am repulsed by many things such as children being kept perpetually in a basement because neither their parents nor society had a sense of responsibility for caring for them or could somehow not afford to act upon what sense they/we had.  I was in just such a foster home. I am sad sometimes about the impact of my own "upbringing" and some others AND I am repulsed by what I witnessed, such as a girl with a metal plate in her head because her dad threw her against a wall and who was so drugged she barely moved.  Sorry don't mean to be so graphic AND that is a reality that I truly find repulsive.  

By the way, perhaps you and your wife are "so good with children"  in part because you choose to spend time with them.  

Your caring for yourself and your wife and respecting one another's choice is a model for parents and non parents and for any children who get to witness that.  

Your choice requires foresight and courage and is trail blazing for future generations.  Maybe someday every child will have plenty of adults with plenty of time to share with them.

Anonymous:
Nic, I wholeheartedly "echo" Echo's thoughts  :lol:  with regard to your expression of not wanting children.  As I have mentioned, and still (embarassingly) feel, I felt that way for  a LONG time.  I have had many people tell me I'd be a great mom, too.  I know that, in my heart.  I think you know you would be a great dad, too.  I see it in your posts.  but that doesn't mean we should be, does it?  Where does it say its a requirement?  Believe me, I have reached this decision with much reservation.  and, partly, came to the conclusion out of fear (my age, time running out, now or never) etc.  I don't remember how old you said you were.

I can relate to your anxieties and even mild irritation when around certain children.  I could only tolerate most other people's children in small doses.  And, I've been told by many people who have children of their own that they even are annoyed by other people's children... this is human!  Heck, I still don't even enjoy being in a room full of women talking about their own childbirth experiences (and I'm pregnant!)

I really beleive this has a lot to do with our upbringing - being raised by toxic parents.  Our perpective has been tarnished.. it is inevitable that we fail to see much joy in having children when our own childhood was hardly joyful.  How can we envision something so significant that we've not experienced?

I am glad you posted.  It makes me feel a little more human, as I still have guilt about these feelings that creep up even as I am forming a life inside of me.  I am sorry to hear of the loss of the child that would have been yours.. but I believe everything happens for a reason.  

The original poster of this thread, Rojo, said that she had fought hard and long to find peace in her adult life.  I'm sure this is some of what you feel too.  Yes, a baby will probably change at least SOME of that!  I'm ready, (I think?) but some of you may not be.  

Hugs

I_am_mine:

--- Quote from: Anonymous ---...I will say that if you are concerned about giving up peace and quiet and being able to do whatever you want to do, you are correct, you will have to give up those things. Is raising a baby one of the hardest things to do that there is? Yes. My memories of those early years were that they were brutal, very difficult, and put a strain on our marriage. They were also the some of the most special and rewarding and meaningful times of my life that I will never forget. It is not something that can be explained very well with words and will rock your world in ways that you can’t even imagine. My whole life changed the day my first daughter was born. There is nothing like it.
--- End quote ---


Rojo, Simon's experiences echo my own.  Many compromises have to be made, your freedom to come and go as you like is gone, you only get peace and quiet on the baby's schedule, which will probably not be when you need it most.  I also understand the strain on the marriage part - there is such an incredibly awesome series of adjustments and changes, and sometimes both partners don't adjust at the same rate, or in the same way.  

Simon's very correct when he says having a child cannot be explained very well in words, and will rock your world in ways you can't even imagine.  Simon, you must be a very involved dad to make these observations, as, traditionally, some dads (and moms, too) don't invest enough time/emotional energy/bonding, whatever you want to call it, to be able to identify and realize what's going on when they have a child.

I left this til last, because to me, it's the most important thing - "They were also the some of the most special and rewarding and meaningful times of my life that I will never forget. ".  My experience is the same, I have never had a more satisfying, fulfilling experience in my whole life. However, it is frequently a thankless experience, you don't necessarily get a lot of positive feedback!  My younger 2 boys are in high school now, my oldest is 20 - I have no idea where the years went and how they grew up so fast, but I know that for me, having children was the right thing to do.  I'm just hoping that I did (and keep trying to do) the right thing for them.

On the other hand, Nic - why do you feel shame for making a decision not to procreate?  Shame?  I'm so sorry you feel like that, it's not necessary that you feel such a negative emotion about making a very important life decision.  You stated your reasons very clearly, and your feelings are definitely valid.  I agree with Echo - your feelings are SOOOOOOOOO NOT repulsive!  To me, it would be much more distasteful if you felt you didn't want children, but had them anyway - because of societal or family pressures, conforming to the "typical" 2.5 child family with the white picket fence, or as you said of your brother, for the purpose of aggrandizing yourself and proving you can procreate.  I've known people in that situation, and my thought is "why didn't they have the courage to trust in themselves, and think of how a wrong decision will affect the child's life, long after the parents are gone, the child/adult will be living with the consequences of being a "trophy" child."

Nic, I don't feel it's selfish to decide not to have children, I think it shows great compassion, not to create a new life for the wrong reasons.  One can be "complete" without children, and I admire you for knowing yourself well enough to have the courage to identify your reasons and stick with your decision.  IMHO, it is courage, rather than shame.

Rojo, it's too major a decision to make unless you're really sure.  There are always those little doubts, but you're intelligent and intuitive enough to be able to separate the "little" doubts from the "big" doubts.  IMHO, there's nothing wrong with delaying having children, or deciding not to have children.  Rather than selfishness, I think it shows sensitivity to the "potential" child.

Nic, I just have to add (and I hope this doesn't aggravate you too much), you sound like you would be a good father.  Your own horrible childhood experience, your obvious empathy and sensitivity, and you seem so responsible and mature.  But I respect your decision, and wish you could let go of the shame, because truly, there is no shame attached to your decision.

Sorry about the run-on post - I have some very strong feelings about the decision to be a parent or not to be a parent, and I can see justification on both sides.  I guess my feelings are less about the adults involved (altho their feelings are extremely important) than about the children who have no choice or decision-making power.  It makes me so sad to see people with "trophy" children, or, like my Ndad, someone who has children just to make little copies of him/herself, or to have someone to control, or someone to receive Nsupply from.

To everyone who actually gets to the end of this, I thank you for your patience.  I hope nothing I said sounded judgmental, or offended anyone.  If I did hurt anyone, I'm truly sorry.

bobbie

Acappella:

--- Quote ---being raised by toxic parents
--- End quote ---


And I feel some of their toxicity was envirnomental and I don't mean just passed on within a family, I mean nature and culture too.  Meaning it wasn't long ago all of us humans, no matter what country, class or advantage died at half the age we do on average now.  It wasn't long ago that children died more often than not and from natural causes more often than not (still true in many places of course).  While people once connected in small groups perhaps more than we do now, historically haven't we been very ignorant, relatively, of ourselves as a species, a whole group with universal needs etc.?  Who had the time, means or inclination to emapthize with humanity?  A select few compared to now.  I know my own parents had nothing compared to what I have in terms of sources of social empathy, including this forum.

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