What is the purpose?

[Anonymous]

Laura, Bunny and New Day  (Hi Brigid!)

Much like Brigid you have stated things in a very good way for me to go over.  New Day you could have been writing my story as well.  Word for Word.  Thank you all for the invaluable insights that I plan to mull over.

Much love,
Patz

[bunny]

There are so many things posted here that I would like to respond to - but I am so afraid of saying the wrong thing and making things worse for someone.  However, I do feel as though if I could help at least one person work through this, then maybe all the suffering would not have been in vain.  How were you able to build your confidence and sound so sure of yourself?  That is so much where I want to be. Any advice??

Thanks robinm, Brigid, and everyone.

I am not a therapist. I did get a degree in "counseling psychology" from a night school. I wanted to know how therapists operated because I was so suspicious of them. I thought they were manipulative, but I needed  therapy due to my problems. Now I've gone behind the curtain, and I know what they're up to, and how they form their ideas. I've read many books & articles. That's how I got the confidence. It is from all my reading and from being a therapy patient.

bunny

[Lara]

Hi Everyone, so many great thoughts here!
Bunny, I've been thinking over what you said about the possibility of me trying to get from my ex, what I couldn't always get from my father. After you wrote that, it dawned on me that the men whom I know, at work for example, whom I credit with good characteristics and attractive personalities, are also, superficially at least, similar to my father. These are not men who I will ever get involved with,but they are people who I think of quite idealistically. But I'm not quite sure where I go from here, with that realisation,apart from steering clear of them romantically.
Also Bunny,could I ask you, or of course anyone else who could tell me....when you said that the relationship had been toxic for me AND toxic for my ex, is that because if a r/ship is toxic for one person, it must automatically be toxic for the partner as well, or is there some other reason? I was reminded that my ex sometimes said,not angrily but a bit sadly, that he wished he'd never met me, because his feelings for me were so strong.(He used to say that AFTER he moved in with his new girlfriend.) Is that just N talk,or was our r/ship toxic for him in another way than it was for me?

New Day, when you wrote about people only being meant to be in our lives for a time, you expressed something very well, which I have been telling myself too. Like you too,(and it's wonderful to know we are in this together!) I just want to be at peace with it. I agree with you that to still feel a link with people we loved so much is natural, and not something we can expect to shrug off easily, but...does the fact that we HAVE to struggle so much inside to move towards peace, say something about the nature of these r/ships? I don't want to forget my ex,and I want to be able to remember the good times and enjoy the memories, but so far the happy memories are painful, if you know what I mean!

And Robin, I think you are very insightful;you said that it might not be the ex we're  trying to get over, but the battle within ourselves. I think this is true;if I look at my ex through objective eyes, he's actually fairly ordinary, not particularly strong in character, somebody who drifted from one crisis, real or perceived, to the next. But it's as if, inside my mind, he exerted  a hold over me, out of proportion to who he really was, and also as if the damage to my mind, lingers on somehow.
Also thanks for reminding me about 'The Power of Now.' I agree with you, it's a great book, and actually I found it very helpful when I was still in the r/ship, and sometimes felt as if I was losing my grip on reality.It's a book that seems very theoretical at first and a bit daunting, but in fact it combines wonderful insights and new ways of looking at things, with really practical and helpful techniques.

Dear friends here,to end on a positive note...I've had a lousy,horrible week at work, but have survived it.Sometimes these days I feel so strong!

Much love,
Lara.

[Anonymous]

Hi Lara and all:

There was an interesting program I saw once that described how females form a sort of imprint, in our brains, in very early childhood, that is the basis for what we will seek out in a male mate, as our homones begin to rage in puberty.  It made quite a lot of sense, really, that we pick out attributes that we see/like in our fathers and post them directly to a file in our head that basically says:  "Get this in your mate to survive".

Unfortunately, although this was not discussed, my suspicion is that when our fathers happen to be less than desirable (not yours but mine and some others--abusive), the stuff that gets imprinted isn't exactly pick of the crop information.  My next guess is that....we tend to consciously discard a lot of what our fathers were like but.. because it is the only file we have.....we use the information stored there anyway, almost against our own will... and pick a mate with similar characteristics, even if we are consciously trying to do the exact opposite.


Sorry.....I've gone off topic a bit.  The point is.....you're not the only one who's possibly making choices based on information stored during childhood, nor trying to change the way things went.....by reliving or recreating or trying to relive or recreate events with your ex.  Unfortunately for all of us.....none of that works and though it does leave us wondering if there was ever a purpose.....that program seemed to make it clear that the purpose is in a file, in our heads, that is supposed to help us choose a proper mate.  So when the stuff in that file gets messed up (even by such as by the death of our father).....it becomes more of a hinderance than a help, imo.
 

We had a connection, I do not think that is broken when you part after a considerable amount of time together and being in love.

I'm sorry, I've forgotton who wrote this but it really got me thinking.  It seems so very true.  Not just in romantic relationships but in all relationships.  When I connect with people.....and they are later gone from my life for awhile......no wonder it seems like they were just here yesterday....when we see eachother again!  This makes total sense to me.  Maybe we can never completely cut connections with people we really cared about?  Maybe there will always be an emotional connection because we shared so much emotion with them or gave so much emotion to them?  Maybe this isn't a really bad thing.  Maybe it just proves how truly emotionally connected we are capable of being and even if that is not recipricated...it is still of use.  It keeps us from completely hating.   It helps us empathize and maybe even forgive.  We don't just remember the bad things people do and say.....we remember the good and the joy we shared and some of their nice behaviour.

Stormy wrote:

I too wonder what kind of creature presents itself deliberately as loving and caring, and goes to the effort of appearing loving and caring, until we love and care for it, then drops the mask and turns into a monster.

Sick creatures Stormy.  Unhealthy people who are so messed up that they wouldn't know love if it was all there was.  Those who purposely hurt others are a different breed of human being....imo.....bred from bad conditons/genes or some combination that isn't right.  More than we who have suffered loss and pain from them, are they pathetically doomed to continue their sorry existance.  We hurt and cry out and try to let go and go on and look to heal ourselves and share our experiences with others.  They hunt for more of what never satisfies them and compulsively repeat their destructive behaviour until they ultimately either try to consume the wrong morsel, or get eaten alive inside by their own diseased souls.  Either way....they lose out big time by never having loved and never knowing what love is...to begin with.

GFN

[Brigid]

I know I'm taking this thread in a slightly different direction, but I'll blame it on GFN because she started it.

As I look back over my life and the men that I have formed relationships with, be it friendships, marriages, co-workers, or men I have dated, I seem to have a universal reactions to them.  

The ones who have what I perceive to be soothing, sweet, kind demeanors, I want to be friends with, have them put their arm around me and comfort me.  I gather this is the father figure I wish I had.

Stupidly though, I never want these kind of men to be a love relationship.  I seem to only be attracted romantically to men who are edgier, funnier, sexier, whatever so that I don't confuse them with a father figure.  

I forever get angry with myself for not being attracted to some guy who seems so nice and be totally sucked in by someone who is easily identified as a piece of work.  I guess this is the mold I need to shatter so I don't make the same mistake again.

Even reading this makes me realize how screwed up I am.  I guess I need a lot more therapy.  

Brigid

[New Day]

I seem to only be attracted romantically to men who are edgier, funnier, sexier, whatever so that I don't confuse them with a father figure.

So, Brigid, does this mean that  people who have sexy, edgy, funny fathers would go with the nice , soothing, sweet, kind guys?    So they don't confuse their mate with their father figure?  

I mean, some of those sexy, edgy guys are fathers, right?!?!    

GFN,

I mentioned that I believe that connections are not necessarily broken when breakups of any kind occur, and that includes when you lose a loved one to death.   I do not think that energy should be wasted trying to erase connections when they may indeed be permanent.  Connectedness and connections to people do not evaporate  because someone leaves your life.  

If anything, I find the connection I feel with my exN rather comforting, strangely enough.   But that's just me.  I don't mean to imply that this is the way it is for everyone, but maybe it's food for thought.  And if the connection feels hurtful and painful, the goal might be to accept it and be at peace with it, because once someone has been in your life, there is no way to erase that experience.  

Good night , all.  Sweet dreams.
New Day

[Brigid]

New Day,

So, Brigid, does this mean that people who have sexy, edgy, funny fathers would go with the nice , soothing, sweet, kind guys? So they don't confuse their mate with their father figure?

I'm not saying that one kind is a father figure and the other is not to other people, but just to me.  I wish I had had a father who was kind, sweet and loving, so when I encounter men like that, my mind puts them in the father box in my mind, making it uncomfortable for me to think of them romantically.

This is not anything I have ever had reason to think about before.  I just knew that I gravitated toward men with kind, gentle personalities to be my friend while I was married.  This included married men, a priest I used to work with, older and younger men.  I had a feeling of peace when in their presence and would picture myself sitting next to them with their arm over my shoulder.  What I guess could be termed a father/daughter type relationship.  I will probably always be in search of a father figure to have in my life to replace the one I longed for but never had.

Maybe I'm not making any sense, but I do get it--just don't like it.

Brigid

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone:

I will probably always be in search of a father figure to have in my life to replace the one I longed for but never had.

Maybe I'm not making any sense, but I do get it--just don't like it.  

Brigid

You're making a lot of sense to me, Brigid.  Maybe you will keep doing that but is it necessarily unhealthy?   If you have male friends with attributes similar to what you would find admirable in a father, is that really such a bad thing to search out in a friend?

Maybe it would be possible to shift your idea of what a mate is to more in line with some of these qualities you value as fatherish/friendish?  Afterall, had you had a loving, caring, kind, etc father....you would...according to that scientific theory described above here.....you would have built those attributes into your file, in your head, of what to look for in a mate.

Since you didn't have the kind of father with those traits.....you have made choices based on....imperfect information in that file, right?  But now that you've done that, learned from it, and are moving forward....you might actually be able to add new information to that file, or at least, clean out the junk that has not been of good use and this would help you to make healthier choices in the future.

What do you think Brigid?  Might you consider reprogramming that daddy/mate file?  Even if it is a subconscious file, I think it is possible to work with it.

Sorry, Lara.....it is my fault for going off topic here.  My point was that if any of this is accurate, then possibly your file contains information that isn't helping you either.  Maybe subconsciously....you are relating the end/loss of this relationship....with the loss/end of your experineces with your father (due to his death) and would it be possible then, that this is part of what's holding you back from letting go?  It was traumatic to lose your dad and it was traumatic to lose your relationship with your mate....so there might be a certain amount of association filed away somewhere that is giving you the same messages:  "Don't cut the connection.  Don't let go."   Maybe???????

If so, then it might be possible to reprogram that area by making new suggestions.

On the one hand.....as New Day said, it does seem like a waste of time trying to cut connections with those whom we have been deeply emotionally attached to because it is natural to want to hold onto that and maybe even inevitable that we always will, to a certain extent.

On the other hand, if such connections are agrivating and seem like something we just really want to distance ourselves from....I think it is possible to do so by really concentrating on doing that, even if it does take some energy to do so.   Maybe the answer, in this case, is to try to thin out the connection some, move away from it, by building new connections with others, by building new life experineces and by working on occupying our time with new stuff that puts those connections further and further from now and more and more into the past.

GFN

[New Day]

Hi Brigid,

Thanks for clarifying the context you have for the caring, nice, etc., men that for you, create a feeling that you had always wanted in a father.  From that standpoint, I can see why it is difficult to view those men romantically and why you have always put them into the friend role.

IMHO, I don't think that's unhealthy, but as you said, something to think about and an observation worth noting.  Maybe you have never been able to integrate the idea that a romantic mate can *also* be loving, kind, caring, etc., and make you feel that same way.  It's not the exclusive domain of a father to provide that.  And where you were married for so long to someone who must not have given you those feelings, it's easy to understand why you were attracted to those qualities even throughout the years of your marriage, as you mentioned, via other men.  

Insofar as saying (from Robin's post) that someone "has a hold on you" I think that is very different from feeling a connection.   If you feel someone has a hold over you, it's something you can control, it's something you can break in time.   In a way, it is up to you to resolve that.   I know this may be semantics, but having a "hold over someone" is more of a mind control thing.  And I think you can work to resolve that and move on from it.

But a connection is quite different.  Again, IMHO.  But I do absolutely agree with what GFN said that, in time, being engaged in other aspects of your life, moving forward, putting energy elsewhere, will put the connection into a different context and make it weaker.  Especially where pain is involved, of course, there is a need / desire  to want to completely crush that connection.   I think the way any of us integrates  connections (or snuffs them out) is a very personal matter.  

Well, Lara, I also apologize if your thread has been taken in a OT direction.  But maybe it's all related, I hope so.  
And I hope you are feeling better.  
Be well,
New Day

[bunny as guest]

when you said that the relationship had been toxic for me AND toxic for my ex, is that because if a r/ship is toxic for one person, it must automatically be toxic for the partner as well, or is there some other reason?

Yes, if it's toxic for one, it's automatically toxic for both. There's no way a relationship can be toxic to one person, and healthy for the other.

I was reminded that my ex sometimes said,not angrily but a bit sadly, that he wished he'd never met me, because his feelings for me were so strong.(He used to say that AFTER he moved in with his new girlfriend.) Is that just N talk,or was our r/ship toxic for him in another way than it was for me?

It was N-crap. His words are all manipulation and self-involved fantasy. Unfortunately he can only think about himself, and not about the other person. So his words are all about him. The relationship was toxic to him was because it kept him mired in the dysfunctional behavior of exploitive, manipulative, lying abuser. He needs to be out of romantic relationships totally, to repair himself. Obviously that isn't going to happen.

bunny

[Lara]

Thanks everyone!
I agree that it makes perfect sense that we use the blueprint of our father when we are looking for a mate,because in most cases our father is our first and most influential example of 'maleness.' One of the great things about this site is that we can learn from others, and GFN I thank you for your suggestion that perhaps it's difficult to let go of my ex because there is a link there with letting go of my Dad. I'm going to give that more thought. It reminds me that three years ago, my distress during my r/ship with my ex led me to see a counsellor, and that when she sometimes used to ask me about my father and his death, the session always used to end with me crying my eyes out.

Bunny, thanks so much for replying to my questions, and for laying it on the line for me.It's really helpful.

Robin,it does sound like we're in the same sort of place,and that is comforting.Thank you for your kindness, and please know that you are in my thoughts too. I trust that we will reach a sense of peace, sooner or later, and if we find that pair of scissors, perhaps we could hold one handle each and make that liberating 'SNIP!' together!

NewDay, if you feel like it, could you explain in what way you find your connection to your ex comforting? I'd be really interested to know about it.

One more thing, re my aforementioned 'horrible week at work:'
it was a little like Stormy posted a few weeks ago,with people showing total lack of respect, rudeness, and lots of politicking going on. All in all it was a very uncomfortable week for me, but the strange thing is, how do I feel generally now...BETTER!    Most weekends I think about my ex too much, feel confused and nostalgic, but not this weekend! Today he seems a little more distant, a little less relevant, and perhaps I feel a bit more independent, because as best I could, I've stood up for myself against the jerks at work.

Anyway, love to everyone, hope your Saturday is going okay or better!

Sincerely,
Lara.

[Mati]

Hi GFN

There was an interesting program I saw once that described how females form a sort of imprint, in our brains, in very early childhood, that is the basis for what we will seek out in a male mate

Thanks for that. It really made me think. I know that later on my father was unavailable, violent on occasion, and too strict, but perhaps it is in the very early years that the imprint occurs, when we are mainly atttatched to our mothers as primary caregivers, and mine was unable to be a mother to me due to mental illness, when faced with a child who had been poisoned with mercury from teething powders and who was irritable, sick a lot and generally difficult to manage. This has really opened up explanations to me about my childhood. The men in my life were not like my father in lots of ways, as it was my mother from whom I was 'abandoned' from in my first year when I was taken into hospital, and it is abandonment where I have had issues. I never bonded with my mother, and can see that perhaps if I had, then the effects of my father would not have been as significant in those early years when the deepest and more extensive damage was done. Surely a strong bond with a mother is the most important thing? Wonder what others think. Or did you mean males writing females instead?

Mati

[Anonymous]

Hi all:

Most weekends I think about my ex too much, feel confused and nostalgic, but not this weekend! Today he seems a little more distant, a little less relevant, and perhaps I feel a bit more independent, because as best I could, I've stood up for myself against the jerks at work.

Good for you Lara!!

When you feel positive and good about yourself, you don't think about him so much.  When you feel blah or a bit less, you think about him more.  Keep thinking those powerful positive thoughts about yourself, as much as possible!  That's the way to go, I think.  Soon, he'll be a dull memory!

Hey Mati:

Good point.  Although that program was only about how we store an imprint in our minds containing certain information about our fathers, (which I referred to as a "file"), and which we use to help us make choices about our mates, as we hit puberty.........I'm sure you're quite correct!

I bet there are all kinds of "files" in there...and probably..one of the most powerful of those is the one containing information about our mothers.

I'm so sorry that you had such a sad, awful infancy (and more I bet).   You could be correct in that for those who have had a somewhat healthy bonding with their mother, the father "file" gives more input during the mate picking process.  Maybe......for those who have had a real time with abandonment, especially by their mother, that abandonment "file", becomes the strongest influence???

Maybe....it's what we long for most.....that causes us to make certain choices (even if we are unaware that we long for those things)???

Who knows.  In that show, they did refer to the "female"  keeping this data in the subconscious mind, for future use, but I am sure, males do the same, or similar type data collecting/filing, and that we as humans do so, for more than just... the mate picking process.

Surely a strong bond with a mother is the most important thing?

I can't answer this.  If you think this is something that really effects your life, I wonder if there are ways to form ...sort of ....substitute or similar bonds, to help a little???
I know there will never be the actual bond between you and your mother, but might it be possible for you to form bonds with say..an older woman....in some way that might be beneficial to both people??
Say on a volunteer basis?    Maybe that's a coooookie idea??

GFN

[Lara]

Dear GFN,
Thanks so much for your encouragement;it means a lot to me.

Sincerely,
Lara.

[Mati]

Hi GFN

No that's not a cookie idea. In fact this is what happened to me once. I don't think I was ever adequately mothered and it was always an empty hole in me. Until a few years ago when I was at a Christian healing weekend (for people with ME) I was so ill at that time and was with one or two others at the back of the hall lying on campbeds because we were too ill to sit up for the hours of the meetings. One of the ministry team was a lovely woman in her seventies. She took me under her wing for the weekend and fussed over me like a mother hen. It was the first time I had ever felt cared for. I felt mothered and since then it has filled up that hole and replaced what I never knew. I felt that God had supplied a need that I had and felt it was a gift from Him. It made an enormous difference to my health and I started to improve from then on.

I believe that in our cultures, the accepted habits of child rearing ie putting babies to sleep on their own, letting them 'cry it out' etc cause a degree of abandoned feelings that stay with us. Children and adults from much more primitive societies where the babies stay close to thier mothers are found to be much more secure.

Mati