Help in dealing with my child's N father

[Anonymous]

N's do not care about anyone but themselves, so her pain is of no consequence to him.  She is his tool to get what he wants...

Brigid, thank you for your warm welcome. Oh, so true!  N's really don't care about anyone but themselves. Took me over a decade to figure that one out, but as soon as I did it changed everything for me. Illusions do die hard though...

The counselor may suggest that the three of you do family counseling so your daughter can hear from a professional how parents should behave in order to have a healthy co-parenting situation.

As for family counseling, I don't see that happening, and I don't want to be involved in anything that would engage me further with him. If I thought it would be beneficial to our daughter, I would, but I think that would just give him something else to hook his claws into with me or place her in the middle of. I don't see it affecting his behavior or choices with her at all, and if anything would only make him more...spiteful and punishing.

I do think my daughter would benefit from individual counseling though, to get perspective from another person and to be able to give voice to her fears to someone other than her mom.

Do you have a guardian ad lidem involved in your divorce process?

I don't know what a guardian ad liem is. I don't really have a lawyer as such...I'm going through one of those uncontested divorce mills. It's the best I can do. He won't pay for any of it. I did draw up a separation aggreement that they then put together for me. It doesn't cover much, but we don't have anything together.  

I just wanted one anyway, because I'm starting up a new business on my own, and want to make sure everything is clearly separated. He never had any money and he drained what money I had, plus we declared bankruptcy last year, so there's no property, no savings, nothing.

Again, thanks for the welcome, and I did find your suggestions helpful. Just being able to think about other alternatives or options goes a long way to addressing the fear of helplessness you can sometimes feel.

Hopeful

[Hopeful]

Oh, mum, my heart goes out to you. Thank you for sharing your experiences with me and your very, very kind words. They strengthen and encourage me.

Yes, it does look like we're protecting our ex's, but what we're really protecting is our children. I think you are right about being careful about badmouthing the other parent, even if it's true. What I'm trying to figure out is a balance between that and being truthful...or helping my daughter to discern in her reality. I think I want to go into this further with mudpuppy's post. But I totally agree, meeting your ex-N on their level is not the way to go, but I can't help but feel there's another solution to either spelling everything out or not addressing it at all.

And you know, that is another good reason for my daughter to go into counseling. Not just to help her with the divorce, but to help her when she inevitably comes face to face with the reality of his narcissism. Which means I need to find someone who is well-trained in these dynamics. Thank you for mentioning this aspect of counseling.

I'm sorry your ex is using the joint custody as a weapon.  I have a feeling that is what mine will do...he already is. I am also learning to disconnect emotionally. I have found that's the best way to maintain my sanity and self-control. Otherwise, if I catch any of the stuff he tosses my way, even if to disagree, it's like getting sucked down into a whirlpool of emotional crap. Next thing I know I'm right in the middle of some major conflict dance with him, and that's what he wants...he gets the validation that he's still important enough to me to get upset about. No thanks.

And thank you for the advice about the custody agreement.  I have a general one in the separation agreement that just says we share joint custody as we determine is best for our child. We already live in two different states (just across the border), but it makes sense not to pin yourself down.

So glad your kids are old enough to speak up for themselves. Such a shame they have to deal with this court thing though. Hats off to you, as you stand by your truth with them.

THIS is why your daughter will be ok...kids only need ONE good parent (two would be great....but you'll more than make up for her rotten dad).

Oh, this is a gem!  Thank you. It would be great if there were two good parents, but I do need to remember that I have a tremendous impact on my child, too, and maybe in the long run, even more.

Thank you, mum, and I'm sending you light too.

Hopeful

[Hopeful]

longtire, thank you so much for your welcome, and your supportive words. I really appreciate them!

I especially like what you said about giving him more rope. I do believe that is eventually what he will do. The trick is to minimize the damage until he does. And thank you so much for reminding me that consistency is not their strong suit!  Yes, that is so true, and I need to remind myself of that right now.

You know, I haven't thought about counseling for me..I tend to shy away from that, but I might actually be driven to it! Funny, at the beginning of our separation, he told me that he didn't need counseling but I did. I said after all these years with him I probably did!

Anyway, this place is a wonderful way to lighten the load, and I do so appreciate all your kindness in responding to my post. I posted and then went to see my daughter in a school play. Her father was there, and the way he looked at me made my blood run cold. I actually felt afraid.

Tomorrow should be the day we sign, unless he finds a way to get out of it. I didn't tell him our daughter told me the "secret", but I did point out that her play was running tomorrow and Friday, so he's taking her to school those two days instead of keeping her home.

He walked out with me, and I was so uncomfortable. I just wanted to get away. I hope tomorrow is better, but whether or not he's in a good or bad space, I'm going to do what I can to get that signature. It's my freedom lease!

In the meantime, I'll be praying for my little girl tonight, while I'm at work, and seeing her surrounded by loving protective light.  She is an angel in and of herself.

Hopeful

[Hopeful]

She isn't a substitute for you and she isn't a pawn to be used and abused by him. This is abuse....But the good thing is she's telling you. Maybe she realises that Dad is somehow wrong in what he's doing?

Portia, my daughter told me, because I asked her. And we do have a good relationship. I don't know if she realizes that he's somehow wrong, but I do know that she trusts me and cherishes our closeness.

And yes, it is abuse. You hit it so right on that she isn't a substitute for me. But in her father's world, she is. I no longer am the adoring female worshipper I once was. He no longer commands that kind of attention from other girls like he used to...but he has his daughter!

In many ways she is filling in his need for his fix. She is the one who thinks about him, loves him, sees him as wonderful, etc. I truly hope for an older substitute...I want him to find a girlfriend, single, no kids (he will want to play house with his daughter or use her to occupy the other children if his girlfriend does have any). Someone who can devote all her time to him and will want to go out and date. This way his daughter will be in the way. She'll get bumped and his needs will get met and so will mine, because he'll need me to have her while he's out courting.

My little girl will get her heart broken, but I will be here, and so will the support I set up for her.

I pray for that man's happiness with another woman every day.

Hopeful

[Hopeful]

I'd like to respond to mudpup's and Mia's post here.

Hi everybody,

I just had a question for everyone.

Why is it just assumed that telling your kids about their father's despicable behavior is harmful to them?...It seems like your kids are already being used and manipulated. Are you sure telling them what a manipulative creep their fathers are would harm them? Is it possible an eight year old can understand more than we think? Is it possible your kids are being subtly abused already with no way for them to protect themselves because they don't know the truth?

I hope I don't sound judgemental or snotty, I just hate to think there is no antidote to brainwashing other than a vague hope that time will heal the damage done by the lies.

mudpup

Thank you so much, mudpup, for asking these thought provoking questions. And no, I don't think you're being judgemental or snotty!  I read your post and Mia's further down, and I can see where both of you are coming from, as well as mum's. So this post is for you too, Mia!

I think what I have to be careful about is being mindful of my daughter's perception, what she's capable or ready to hear and also helping her to name her reality.  It is abuse for her to go through what she's going through, and I don't want to add to that abuse with denial of her reality or "sideways anger" from my own agendas and unresolved issues with him.

I have to be very careful, and I have to take cues from my daughter as to what she's capable of or ready to hear.  I think to a large part, it's intuitive, as every child is different.  I think the more options I have, the better I will be able to respond, and I am certainly getting a treasure full of options and insights here!

I don't need to protect my H's image. I can't re-create him into something she needs, but I also don't need her to see him as I do.  If I were dealing with a rational person, I think I would be happy with just that general stand of "we both tried to work it out, but couldn't". However, it's clear that her father isn't playing by those rules of common decency and respect.

However, I don't think I need to tell her all the specifics either...and I certainly don't get that from Mia's post. I respect how you handle the situation with your daughter, and I do agree, I feel the need to protect my child from her father's manipulation as I would any other predator.

I also want her to be able to identify this behavior as wrong, because it's here that she's laying down the patterns for how she will relate to other people...other men, and I don't want her to continue the long history of dysfunctional choices throughout my family line as I did.

This child is "all heart", very intuitive, and extremely empathic. And her father is exploiting it to the hilt. I need to find a way to protect that openess in her and also empower her to protect her own beautiful self from usuary.

The thing is, Mia, I had a similar conversation with my daughter earlier, and she remembered what it was like, and she was okay with it. It's just recently, her father has upped the ante with his vast loneliness, and his spoiling of her and his professed love for me, and it's impacting her big time. He's relentless in his game playing, and she's not holding up well now.

So, there is something inside of me that says I need to take further action. I did go into a little more detail yesterday when she asked me why I left again. But I only told her what she had personally experienced, reminded her and extrapolated generally from that.

My other concern about giving her too much informatoin or details is she, in her trusting heart, would likely confront him about it, and that would put her in the middle of a horrible tug of war where the only loser would truly be her. So I can't just come out and tell her the truth, because it would harm her in that way.

I think when my daughter's father plants a big fat lie in front of my child, and she brings that to my attention, I'm placed in a position where I have to address it or respond to it in some way. So for a good while now I've been telling her that I'm sorry her father had to tell her that. It's not true. I tell her that I think he's wrong to have said that to her, and to bring her into this, and that it doesn't matter. because what happened between mommy and daddy is between mommy and daddy.

I tell her that she has a right to love both parents, and what happens between big people is for big people to deal with.  So I'm not whitewashing her dad, and I'm letting her know he's not ethical, but I'm not telling her specifically he's not ethical. I'm addressing each instance that comes to my attention as generally as possible.

In other words, I don't need to go into what he did or what he said or any specifics. I do cover the issue more generally in terms of principles.  Does that make sense?

That way I can respect her love for him, her relationship with him, and not badmouth him per se, and still honestly address specific behavior, be upfront about how I feel, the choices I make and principles I hold. And she can draw her own conclusions.

The other day my daughter told me something her dad said about a partcular group that was supposed to be "our band", which I didn't even like this group!  I told her that wasn't so.  My daughter got quiet, and said "Daddy says a lot of things that aren't right."

And, because I wasn't thinking, and I immediately went into my..."oh, I want to honor her relationship with her father, and you shouldn't talk bad about about the other parent" mode, I said, "Oh, he just remembers things differently sometimes"

Aaarrgh!  The fact is he lies...a lot.  Now, I don't think I should have said "Yeah, he's a liar, and he's just saying this to manipulate you into believing we had more of a partnership, when actually it was really a relationship of usuary, and none of this stuff happened, because it's all a fantasy he's creating to make you feel sorry for him and try to pressure me into coming back with guilt, for his own reasons and not for you, because he really doesn't love you, because he's a narcissist, and what he thinks is love is really centered around his OWN BIG FAT NEEDS!"

...And I'm not saying anyone is saying I should do that....Just getting a little carried away here...(damn, that felt good!)

But I could have validated her perception, instead of sugar coating it.  I could have said, "Yes, that's right, Daddy does say a lot of things that aren't right."  Period.

Oh, this STINKS!  This makes me so mad I have to go through this, that she has to, but it is what it is...

Well, I got to get going. Again, I just want to thank every one so much for your wonderful responses and helpful suggestions.  Everyone has given me much to think about, and I don't feel anywhere near as alone as I did this morning.  I'm taking your thoughts with me to work tonight.  

With my gratitude,
Hopeful

[mum]

Hey, Hopeful. So kind of you to respond to everyone individually.  

Careful what you wish for.  I wished for my ex to get another woman and leave me alone.  That worked out for a while, until she found she could not have children......and then all hell broke loose.  She is determined to GET my children in a way, and a  result, this woman that they once thought was pretty cool, my children now hate.  I'm not sure that I still wouldn't wish for this, but it makes being at my ex's house extremely uncomfortable for my kids, as she calls all the shots, and is very controlling and mean.  So, I would rather they like her at least a bit. Anyway, this is all with my ex's blessings (he can't be bothered, except to "own" them). It's all pretty sick.
so I doubt your ex will get a emotionally healthy woman....anyway, he can't keep one, obviously!!!

You sound like an awesome mom.  You really do.  

The other thing about being close to your daughter: it is a tightrope we walk, isn't it?  I still fight this battle within.
But I have found that if my kids share that dad is a jerk, etc etc.....I try to listen and validate without putting my own spin on it.  Otherwise: (and they have said this) they won't tell me anything!!!

So here's  two versions (for your entertainment):

Version one (not to do....learned by doing)

Child (teenage): Dad and step mom won't let me eat anything without permission at thier house...nothing.  I have to sneak between meal snacks... we can't eat anything at all!

Me: Wow! That's crazy!!  You are old enough to determine your own need for a snack and how to pick something out to eat.  
What jerks! That really makes me mad!!  

Child: stop getting all upset.  Stop calling dad names....I'm sorry I told you anything!

Version two: (learned by doing)

Child (teenage): Dad and step mom won't let me eat anything without permission at thier house...nothing.  I have to sneak between meal snacks...we can't eat anything at all!

Me: Wow!  That's different than my house, huh?

Child: Yeah! I mean I'm not a baby anymore, c'mon.  Just because step mom has a weight problem doesn't mean it's my problem.  I've seen her sneaking chocolate!  

Me: Well, sometimes I tell you to think twice before you spoil a dinner I have planned.

Child: It's different mom!  It's like a jail over there!  I feel like I have choices here.

Me; well, I'm glad for you that you are here right now.  But put down that cookie, we're going to have "real food soon". (that last sentence isn't always true...I never cook!!
 

[longtire]

But I could have validated her perception, instead of sugar coating it.  I could have said, "Yes, that's right, Daddy does say a lot of things that aren't right."  Period.

Hopeful, just keep rehearsing this kind of thing in your mind.  One of these days it will just pop out at the right time.  Whatever you do, don't beat yourself up for not being perfect and knowing the perfect response in the heat of the moment.  It takes time to change old habits to new ones.

Your thoughtful replies are much appreciated.  Don't feel that you HAVE to respond in depth to every reply, but if you feel like you have a bunch of stuff to get off your chest right now, we understand!  In that case keep posting until you have it all out here.

[Anonymous]

Hopeful,

You really sound like you have it together.  Your daughter is blessed to have you as a Mom.

I will keep you and your daughter in my prayers as you deal with the relentless onslaught of h#ll from  your X N.

Best wishes.

Mia

[Brigid]

Hopeful,
It sounds like you are approaching your situation as thoughtfully and carefully as you can and keeping your daughter's best interest in the forefront.

If there is any way you can swing it, some counseling may be beneficial for you to work through the pain he put you through and also in helping you to communicate with your daughter.  My T has been very helpful to me in how to address certain situations with my children regarding their father.  

Mudpuppy,
In regards to your question, it is a very delicate issue.  Badmouthing their n parent can really backfire on the healthy parent.  My children were told by their father about his cheating and lying (at my insistance when he left).  They saw the devastation of their mother at that time.  There was really nothing more I needed to say about that and they were old enough to form their own opinions.

I did finally decide that my 20-year-old son was old enough for me to explain his father's nism and why I believe that his personality is disordered--due to an alcoholic, very n father, enabling mother, etc., etc.  I needed for him to have an understanding of the disorder and the fact that it will create situations where his father will lie about things, hide things, and basically be unreliable.  He has never been abusive, but is an expert manipulator and very charassmatic and charming.

I tried to do this from a more clinical standpoint, saying that my therapist had diagnosed him and it wasn't just something I created in my head.  But my son needs to know how to deal with his father moving forward and not just blindly believe and accept everything his dad tells him.  I think he ultimately appreciated the discussion and it helped him to know that there was a somewhat medical explanation (my son is pre-med in college) for his father's deviant and despicable behavior. (his father had told him about his interest in pornography and masturbation shortly after he moved out).

I have not, however, had this discussion with my daughter and feel that she won't be ready until she is in college and somewhat more distanced from the situation.  If my xh were being in any way destructive with our children, I wouldn't hesitate to make them aware of his behavior.  But he really is only being destructive by having so little interest and involvement in their lives.  I'm sure many of you would prefer that, but my kids do not understand it and I know it bothers them.  I never miss anything, however, and am always available when they need me.  Its the best I can do.

Hopeful - I wish you well and can feel your struggle and totally understand your overwhelming desire to protect your daughter.  Bless you for that.  She will eventually be proud of the mom who had the guts to leave a man who did not appreciate and love her.  She will know that you always put her interests first and she will love you for that.  Hopefully some day she will see her mom in a loving, healthy relationship that can provide a role model for her into the future.

God bless,

Brigid

[Hopeful]

Brigid, Mia, Longtire, and Mum,

Thank you for your responses, your support and encouragement! When I first posted yesterday morning I was so frazzled, but just reading the responses and posting back really helped me to get clearer on where I was trying to go on this. I felt pretty fragmented, and writing helped me to pull things together, so I do feel stronger now.

Well...we didn't get to sign the papers today. He canceled. Second time this week. And he wasn't cooperative about meeting tomorrow either. I told him I needed closure. His response was, "I guess you do." And he said he'd talk to me later. But he did show up then later at my work and asked to see the papers, so I gave him his copy.

We'll see...

Longtire, rehearsing is a good word. I will take that to heart, and so is compassion. Thanks.

You're right about getting what you wish for, mum. I think I should step back from being so specific about what I think would be a good solution and just keep my heart open to a sense of resolution and peace for everyone involved. Seredipitous happenings are always better and more fun than anything I've ever been able to orchestrate anyway! Thanks for the reminder.  And thanks for examples!  They were not only entertaining, but enlightening.

And thank you for your prayers, Mia. Even though my H canceled this morning, I felt more centered this morning than I did yesterday. I know it's because I'm aware of this board and the kindness that has been extended.

To everyone, again, thank you.

Hopeful