Author Topic: Help in dealing with my child's N father  (Read 4169 times)

Anonymous

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« on: May 25, 2005, 07:09:43 AM »
It's finally sunk in to my soon to be ex-husband, that I'm actually going through the divorce. I have a ton of reasons to be leaving, and the only regret I have in that is that I hadn't done it sooner. Without a doubt, he has strong narcissistic characteristics, and learning about this disorder has helped me in my dealings with him, not to mention, strengthened me to walk away from this toxic relationship.

What is really concerning me now is how he is using our 8 year old daughter's beautiful heart and natural desire to see her parents together to his advantage. It's been cyclical during the past 2 years of our seperation, but now that the end is in sight, he's really upped the ante.

I wish I could say he's badmouthing me, because that would be more obvious to my daughter that what he's doing is wrong, but he's not. What he has been doing and has intensified recently is coming across as my victim to her. He's asserted to her from the beginning that he doesn't know why mommy left, that I just don't like him anymore and that he'd like me back. But his efforts are getting worse.

From the beginning, I told him that we should not get her involved, when he said he didn't know what to tell her.  I said I tell her that we had both tried to make things work, but couldn't, and that what matters is that we love her and will always be there for her. That has always been my stance, and I told him that's what he should say for her sake.

But I find myself increasingly more and more in a corner, as he insists on painting himself as a helpless, bewildered victim.

He shows her videos of happier times, holidays shots, when she was a baby, that kind of thing. He fabricates our history, making up stories of what our favorite band was, music, wonderful surprises he did for me, that kind of crap. He puts on videos that we used to like to watch together (that was about the extent of our sharing as a couple), and of course will tell her that that was "our movie.

And now he's out and out telling her that he loves me and wants me to come back.

He knows why counseling is no longer an option. He knows what he did, has done over years, knows why I won't come back, why it's too late.

The thing is, I stood by that man for 15 years, through thick and thin. He cheated on me, never took responsibility, totally entitled and extremely verbally abusive. He's all into his partying - he's a functional alcholic among other things - and the final straw was when he abandoned me and my child during a weekend family crisis to go party with a friend instead.

But I can't tell my daughter this. She askes me why I left. I remind her of what it was like. The sudden explosion of hostility was unbearable. At taht time, she was the one who encouraged me to leave. She seemed to understand at the beginning, and even as recently as this past Christmas, even after he sat her down and showed her all the "happy family" videos from the past. We had a long talk, and I asked her to trust me that I would never have left if there was any chance of making things better, that I would never hurt her like that, and that I had good reason. I told her that she couldn't get us back together again, that it's normal for children to want their parents back, that I understood and was sorry this was so hard on her, but that we both loved her and would always be there for her and that would never change.

She seemed to accept that, and things were okay, until her father launched a new campaign to get me back. Her emotional state of mind now and this new effort are not coincidental, and I can't believe he would do this to her...I mean, I can...but I can't!

I refuse to be as ignorant as he is, and tell her what he's done or is like to justify my reasons for not going back, but the fact still remains, I'm looking pretty bad to my daughter now, and he's looking like the good guy.

This is so insidious, because when he has her, he will let her stay up till midnight watching movies with him and then let her stay home from school the next day. We have joint custody and our jobs necessitates one of us having her for several days while the other one works. He does this even after I tell him she's having a harder time in school because of missed days.

This week I told him the final papers were drawn up and we need to sign them. In just this short time, I have seen a more dramatic change in his behavior to where he seems to be focused only on bonding with her as her favorite buddy and undermining me.

Yesterday, he saw us in a parking lot, came over to the car, got in and tried to hang with us a bit. I turned my car engine to go, and he had a smart remark to make, but what really got me was that he cupped his hand and whispered in her ear, before he left. I later asked her what he said, and she said that he told her not to tell me, but that when he gets her tomorrow, he's going to let her stay up late at night, watch movies with him and keep her home from school. When he was in the car, each time she told him she missed him, he'd kiss her on the check or touch her lovingly, and then he'd roll his eyes and shake his head, like he couldn't believe I was doing this to her, and then he'd be all sympathetic to her.

I can see the change in my daughter too, how she looks at me, how angry she is, how she believes daddy knows how she feels and cares and wants her to have what she wants, but mean old mommy won't. And I know this is all due to his manipulating of this girl's heart. She seems to be better after I assure her I love her and reiterate that to go back would be to place her and myself in more emotional stress and grief, but I can also see that she's really suffering, and at this moment, doesn't care about that. She just wants us to get back together "like the old days", which is a total fabrication of her father's. We were never that happy.

She can't defend herself from him when she's with him, and doesn't know she needs to.

I don't know what to do. I have to bite my tongue and not tell her what he's really like, what he's done, etc.  But how do I protect her? How can I fight this man who is playing on her precious heart for his own purposes? I'm afraid for her, afraid that he will use her to punish me in increasingly hurtful ways to her.

Maybe what I need to do is just vent like this. I know I have to focus on spending quality time with her. I know I have to set boundaries and expectations for her in my home. I know I can't and won't say bad things about her father to her, and I know I have to make myself available and create the safe place in my home for her to be able to talk.

And while it's not appropriate for me to tell her the truth about her father, I would like to be able to find a way to teach her about the nature of manipulation. Not as it relates to her dad, but as it relates to human interaction. She can draw the correlation on her own when she is emotionally and psychological able to, but I do feel she needs to be educated as to these dynamics.

Has anyone else had experience with this, and if so, what resources did you use? I'm thinking about taking her to someone who specializes in working with kids going through a divorce, as well.  I need some help here. Has anyone had experience with that?

I've made a decision not to engage her father in any conversation except as it concerns our daughter, but only in terms of her education, whatever. I won't discuss what he's doing with her, becuase I know what his reaction will be, and it will be a total waste of time. I don't need to set myself up in that way. It's a fine line for me, and I need to perhaps address choices and its affect on her and stay away from addressing his motives.

Thanks for letting me vent here. I feel a little better already.

Hopeful

gardener

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2005, 07:23:01 AM »
Hi hopeful, try the forum at this site below... They're pretty good with this kind of thing. Supportive and helpful too. Best wishes to you.

http://www.drirene.com/catbox/index.php?act=idx

Your story is similar to many others there....try them out.

Anonymous

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2005, 07:46:08 AM »
Welcome Hopeful. Your daughter trusts you and you’re doing a good job in handling the divorce fairly.

He is not behaving as a responsible parent. Can I ask why you have joint custody? Can this change?

Is it in her best interests to have joint custody? I don’t think so from what you’ve said. He sounds an incredibly harmful influence. I don’t know how this works where you are, but I’d go to court to get sole custody.

Sorry I can’t comment further, I don’t have the knowledge but I guess others will. Well done for venting!  :) I’m glad you feel a little better. Portia

Brigid

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2005, 08:46:19 AM »
Dear Hopeful,
Welcome to this site.  I'm very sorry for the trauma that your H is willing to inflict on your daughter.  N's do not care about anyone but themselves, so her pain is of no consequence to him.  She is his tool to get what he wants.

I realize you have work issues that necessitate her being cared for by someone else for periods of time.  However, her father is harming her when she is in his care.  I would definitely get her into some counselling so she has an outside party to discuss her frustrations with.  I agree with Portia that aiming for full custody should be your goal, but in the meantime, you need to get some leverage.  The counselor may suggest that the three of you do family counseling so your daughter can hear from a professional how parents should behave in order to have a healthy co-parenting situation.  I am just guessing here as my children were older (16 and 20) when my divorce took place, so they are old enough to understand what is going on and make their own choices on spending time with their father.  

I would definitely talk to a social worker or counselor at your daughter's school and notify them of what is happening when she is in her father's care.  They may be able to get authorities involved if he is allowing her to miss school for no reason and without your permission.

Do you have a guardian ad lidem involved in your divorce process?  If so, that person should also be notified of the stunts your H is pulling.  If you don't have one currently involved, I would talk to your attorney about getting one assigned by the court.

I am just pulling information from things friends have had to do to protect their children and none of it is from personal experience.  I hope you find some of it useful.  Good luck.

Brigid

mum

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2005, 10:19:47 AM »
Hopeful... I'm glad, despite your current situation, that you picked this word for your name here.  That's what you can and should be, hopeful.  She may not see it now, but some day, your daughter will know what a woman is worth, because of you....she will have a chance to know what true love is, because you loved yourself enough to leave a man who could not love.

When I first divorced my highly functioning alcoholic, verbally abusive, cheating, manipulative, narcissistic baby/bully of an ex (sounds familiar, no?), he pulled similar stuff on my children.  My son was 8, my daughter was 4.
I felt trapped, because I couldn't tell them the "truth" about dad, as I knew (as you know) that would put them squarely in the middle of a very adult situation.  I also knew (as you know, but maybe you need to hear again) that talking about the ex in a "bad" way, (which is the only way it would sound to tell the truth about him...it's pretty bad) would only hurt my children more.  

Some of my siblings (not divorced) would say: "but how can you protect him this way?"  I suppose that's what it looked like, and why it was so hard for me.  But it isn't about protecting him....at all. It's about reassuring your child that indeed, this is NOT her issue, not for a moment.  To tell her the real story, would be to stoop to his level, and confuse her further.  But you know that.

The other thing is that the person who draws the child into it the most, whether it be to "badmouth" or present thier side of things, will most likely be the person the kids come to hate the most.  Not right now, as your daughter is only eight, but later, and in the long run.

My kids are teenagers now, and they know what goes on, and they are smart enough to be figuring out these things about dad for themselves. It is sad, they are  beginning to resent him, and it makes me feel sad for them that they don't have a dad who puts them above his own self interests, but at least now they are seeing who he is.  It took a while.
I still don't see how it helps me in any way, though, to see how dissapointed they are that he is a fake.  I guess I feel better because they can start to protect themselves against that type of person.

That said, don't be surprised, if the "daddy and daughter" sweetness he is plying her with now, turns nasty and mean as soon as you finalize the divorce.  You know he is playing an N game, but she may be shocked when he changes the rules.

Which is why you might consider counseling for her now.  Not so your daughter will see your side (give THAT up....sounds like you know better anyway) but so she has some other party to share with already when the tides turn with her dad.

About joint custody: I have that with my ex, and he uses that to treat his children as commodities to broker deals with, weapons to punish me with, and tools to stay connected to and with me way beyond just co parenting.  You know how hard it is to coparent with a Narcissist.  Even though he cheated on me repeatedly, several different mental health professionals have told me (we've been divorce 8-9 years): leaving a narcissist is the biggest F YOU you could possibly give them.  He will forever be bitter and try to punish you for that! And he will use your children to do so!  WOW.  They were right then and now.  I am learning to disconnect, emotionally, as much as I can from him, but it's tough as now that his new wife cannot have children, he has upped the ante and drags me to court regularly  (also, my kids are now speaking up for themselves, which is infuriating him more).

Is there anyway you can limit his visitation? I know it's hard, at the moment, career wise, but things do change, and custody orders are tough, very tough, to change, especially with an ex A**h***.
Please, whatever you do, DO NOT sign into the agreement, anything about staying in the same city, county or state as your ex while your child is a minor.  THIS, I will regret forever. (long story.....trust me, don't do it).

The ONLY time I have seen joint cusody work, is between two very kind hearted adults, who TRULY put their bad divorce feelings aside and put thier 8 year old daughter first, always first, in anything they do as co parents.  As a  result, the child mostly lives with the mom, but feels completely comfortable with dad, and has openly discussed with both parents, that one day, she may want to go live with dad instead, and just visit mom 4-5 times a week (one or two overnights...her choice...reverse of what it is). Mind you, this is ONE divorced couple out of many that I know.  

But we know you are not dealing with another adult.  So don't sign anything that traps you in a place, or in a deal.  Get your daughter some help....

And by the way, maybe I should have started with this:
you are AMAZING.  I think your composure and intellegence about this situation is inspiring.  THIS is why your daughter will be ok...kids only need ONE good parent (two would be great....but you'll more than make up for her rotten dad).

Bless you...sending you light and strength.

mudpuppy

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2005, 10:58:16 AM »
Hi everybody,

I just had a question for everyone.

Why is it just assumed that telling your kids about their father's despicable behavior is harmful to them? I'm not saying it isn't, but there seems to be an assumption that it is a fact and I just wonder if it is.

My experience is with adults so I know it is vastly different, but I can tell you this. I sat back and was Mr. Nice Guy and assumed no one would believe the BS my brother was spewing about me.
Well guess what? A lot of people did and still do believe it. And part of the reason is I didn't counter every lie with the facts.

It seems like your kids are already being used and manipulated. Are you sure telling them what a manipulative creep their fathers are would harm them? Is it possible an eight year old can understand more than we think? Is it possible your kids are being subtly abused already with no way for them to protect themselves because they don't know the truth?

I don't know the answers to these questions regarding kids. I hope someone will explain it to me, because I'm not sure the assumption is correct.
I hope I don't sound judgemental or snotty, I just hate to think there is no antidote to brainwashing other than a vague hope that time will heal the damage done by the lies.

mudpup

longtire

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2005, 11:16:40 AM »
Hopeful guest, you are welcome here.  Keep doing what you are doing.  It is the best course of action out of a bunch of not so great choices.  It WILL pay off in the end with a daughter who trusts you and feel safe with you.  It is tempting to blow the lid off things and say exactly what is going on.  You recognize that your child daughter cannot deal with that.  Perhaps at some point in the future your grown-up daughter will be able to talk with you about it.  She will see his behavior for what it is a LONG time before that, though.  I agree about setting up some counseling so she has someone outside her family situation she can talk with.  You are not supporting his bahavior by not talking about it with your daughter, you are allowing him the time and rope to hang himself with others, your daughter included.

It is clear that you are doing a great job as mom by the way you put your daughter's well being above your own desires in a very difficult situation.  This situation will pass.  These circumstances will pass.  It can't last forever, especially with a N in the picture  Consistency is not their strong suit. :) Keep building your relationship with your daughter for that time.  Keep letting her know that she still has both parents and that you are looking out for her and what she needs to take care of her.  Keep thinking about that day 10 years from now at her high school graduation, when the N doesn't show up (unless it makes him look good somehow).  An N won't be there for her.  You can be.

In the meantime, keep venting/ragin/posting here and get the support and validation from here and other safe places as well.  Have you considered therapy or counselling for yourself?  Anything that helps lighten your load.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

Anonymous

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2005, 11:21:46 AM »
Hopeful, the more I read this:
Quote
I later asked her what he said, and she said that he told her not to tell me, but that when he gets her tomorrow, he's going to let her stay up late at night, watch movies with him and keep her home from school.

the more inappropriate I find his behaviour. An adult and an 8 year old  staying up to watch movies and keeping her off school? It could at the least be making her a real 'Daddy's Girl' in the most manipulative sense. She isn't a substitute for you and she isn't a pawn to be used and abused by him. This is abuse.

But the good thing is she's telling you. Maybe she realises that Dad is somehow wrong in what he's doing? And maybe she wants you to set the limits for her (and him)? I think I would want that, at that age. I wouldn't want to feel like I had to make the decisions about what is right and wrong, if you see what I mean. I think I'm kind of agreeing with Mudpup...portia

mum

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2005, 11:28:42 AM »
All good questions, Mudpuppy.  Something we wrestle with all the time.

I think the difference here is that you are dealing with an adult, in body anyway, who has choices  not attached to a parent and the connection that child may feel toward parents.
For your brother to be "exposed" to other adults, who also have adult perspectives and reasoning capabilities, is not as dangerous as bringing an 8 year old into an adult battle.

I currently must tell my children what thier father is up to, as they want to know WHY I have to spend thier college money in the court system and WHY dad won't listen when they want to come to my house....etc. But they are teenagers now.  
BUT even when asked, the "truth" backfires, as last week, I told my son that I won the right for him to speak to a counselor (his dad fought it) and that was a simple statement of fact and he said "why do you have to tell me BAD things about dad?"  He is acknowledging that his dad fighting me in court over his own right to a voice is BAD, HE put the judgement on it, I did not.  His statement was a lash out to his dad, in a safe place (with me).  But he is almost adult.  8 years ago, he would not have understood this (not that he totally does now) it seems.

It's tricky.  And the N's set that up.  But kids need to be kids and when ANY adult drags them in, that is the adult who is damaging thier relationship with thier kid.   I'm not sure how it works, but it seems to make sense.  
When I got divorced, one of the parents of my students, a very wealthy woman, with a famous name and famous relatives, took me out to a nice dinner.  She said she did this to tell me one thing (well and she probably felt sorry for me).
Do not bad mouth your ex.  She said she knew her dad was a selfish bastard, a womanizer and had hurt her mother.  She knew this pretty young.  But her mother spent the rest of this girl's underage years telling the daughter the same....dwelling on her ex and his failings as a father, husband and human.  She said it hurt her because her mother never gave her the chance to form her own conlusions about her dad (which she had formed already) and watched her mother do a bitter version of life, spoiling her time with her daughter, with the purpose of trying to spoil whatever time she had with her dad.
She resents her mother to this day, AND her dad, just not as much..


I think it's about showing your kids a loving way to do life or a spiteful way...at least that's it in the long run.  If you focus on what a jerk he is, THEY feel stuck with your bad memories of dad...you are keeping them focused on something painful for YOU.

HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE:They get to have a relationship with that father independent of my feelings about the jerk.  It's very tricky, and I would love for an expert to wiegh in here.  But this is what I have gleaned from my experiences in counseling, observing others, hearing stories.  Yes it's infuritating at times!!  But keeping my focus on that bastard does NO good for showing my kids how to do life.  THEY know I'm not accepting his crap...I divorced him and I protect theirs and my interests legally.
But I don't need to add fuel to whatever therapy they will need as adults.  Geeez. they need at least one parent who focuses on them!

When my daughter was 8 or 9 she asked me why her grandma (dad's mother) hated me so much.  I told her it's because her dad and I got divorced....but why did you, she asked:  I told her married people make an agreement not to lie and daddy lied about having a girlfriend.
Mind you, at the time, I thought: oh, gosh, I've done it now.....why did I fall for this?  But it was 4 years post divorce.
Anyway, my daughter said: Oh, dad seems like a person who would do that.
End of discussion.  She then proceeded to tell me some fun she had with him.
She does not remember that discussion, and recently was very upset when I mentioned his infidelity (why did you tell me that?) She didn't remember.

Touchy subject.....thanks for the question....don't know if I have it all figured out, though.

Anonymous

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2005, 11:48:38 AM »
Welcome Hopeful.

I am constantly battling with my X N in regards to his poor treatment of the children so I know where you are coming from.  

Is there any way that the time spent with Dad could be decreased?  Based on the fact that he consistently keeps her home from school could be one of many reasons to cut back his time.  Just a thought.  I know it's not easy to change the status quo but I think a Judge would frown upon this.

Mud asked why it's not appropriate to tell the kids about X N.  I have a different viewpoint from Hopeful and Mum regarding this.  I used to believe that it would be harmful to them but the more my daughter (7) exhibited confusion over her Dad's behaviors etc, the more I doubted my stance on this.  About 8 months ago I calmly explained to my daughter why Dad left and gave her the facts in a non emotional manner. I basically told her the Dad wanted to live alone.  I also touched on his tendency to be rageful and destructive.....she already knew this.  Kids aren't stupid and she pretty much knew all of this anyway.  For my situation I felt it benefited my daughter and she hasn't asked about or wondered about the demise of the marriage since.  

I'm sure others will think what I did was wrong but I feel in my heart that it was right for my daughter.  I don't bash her Dad to her.  I gave her a glimpse into the type of personality of her Father has and why it's not desirable or acceptable to act the ways in which he does.  So she knows that I know what she already knew.  :wink:   Follow?  I feel like I validated her feelings and concerns regarding her Dad and she now knows that it's not her but it is Dad.  We all know how N's can make you question your own sanity at times.  I didn't want my daughter to fall victim to that.  

Mia

mudpuppy

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2005, 11:56:53 AM »
Hi mum,

I suspect you are right on all counts, it just seems counterintuitive. You tell the truth to a lie and its supposed to defeat it. But it doesn't a lot of the time. Doesn't make sense to me, but then when did people ever make sense? :roll:
So the question I have is, does the same thing apply to adults?
Is it better to just put on a smiley face and and hope for the best?

mudpup

mum

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2005, 12:05:44 PM »
mud: nope, (I think) adults are responsible for themselves.

Anonymous

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2005, 12:25:09 PM »
In some ways I feel it is no different from warning your child about predators in society. It's not something I harp on every day but I have addressed it with the children for their own safety. Yes, he is their Father but a predator nonetheless. By informing them I have prepared them.

I think children need to learn life lessons early and need to know when something or someone is wrong....even if that means pointing the finger at a child's parent.

I don't want to risk either one of my children becoming the child that begins to relate to the N and becomes enmeshed with the N. I don't think that in order for a child to be healthy they have to be kept in the dark about the truth and what is right. I want them to fully know what righteousness means at an early age.

If you find that your X N is *brainwashing* your child you may have no choice but to step in in order to set the record straight. JMHO.

Mia

Hopeful

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2005, 01:24:50 PM »
Thank you so much everybody for each thoughtful and insightful reply!  I'm printing this out and taking it to work so I can read over your words again and consider each point made.

Thank you, Gardner, for the link. I visited and bookmarked the board. I most certainly will visit this board more indepth. I am already impressed by the depth of caring and insights of the people who post here.

Thanks!
Hopeful

Hopeful

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Help in dealing with my child's N father
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2005, 01:38:12 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
Can I ask why you have joint custody? Can this change?


Portia, Thank you for your reply and welcome!

At this point the joint custody is soley due to our working schedules. And actually I do have her a little more often than him, although he'll suddenly go into his "I miss her and want to see her more" phase, but that doesn't last long, because you know, there's always poker parties to go to and such!

With him, if I make it an issue, if I let him know I want her more, then he'll want her more and he won't let me have her as often as I do now. If I'm kind of nonchalant about it and make him feel I'm acquiescing to his needs by having her more than my regular time, then that's okay. It's kind of a pain to have to play this game, but it works, and if it's for her good, then I'll play it and play it well!

Unfortunately, I'm not financially or logistically capable of having her full-time. I prefer not to go to court for full custody. I'd rather virtually have it without calling it that, than put him in an adversarial position in court...which his mom would have the money to back him up, and I'm living on a shoestring right now.

Besides, I'd have a hard time, getting full custody I think. He puts on a good front, and he's smart enough to do the keeping her out of school thing intermittantly. He's just doing it more often these past few weeks, because school is almost out and he's pissed at me.

Hopeful