Author Topic: A string of unfulfilling relationships...  (Read 28720 times)

d'smom

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #90 on: August 28, 2005, 12:17:07 AM »

Does anyone have any advice?  Any nugget will do and I just might try to sever it with him this time.
Do I have to see him face to face to break up?  -because it doesn't work!



hi selkie.

im so glad to hear you are doing better now. i am only writing becuase there are a few things i was reminded of reading your situation, that have helped me at junctures such as this before....... just ideas......

first.. i dont think you do have to break up with him..... you can just kind of...... phase out..... just dont answer the phone so fast..... be busy when he calls more...... just dont be available.   wean him off of you (and you off of him)  he may resist this but, theres not much he can do if you just dont respond and slowly fade out of his life......... chances are 100% he will resist and it will be hard for you but, theres no law you have to be there every single time he wants you to be. right? doing the slow wean is totally acceptable way to 'break up'.




It's the repercussions I am terrified of...  Could I kind of ease things off a little now and maybe slowly break up?

i truly dont see why not.  sometimes a direct confrontation is just asking for a mess.

I feel so sorry for him now.  He bought some peaches for me this weekend, and put them in a bowl and put them in my room for me.  It fills me with excrutiating painful pity when I look at them now.  I don't know what has come over me but I am in floods of tears because of this bowl of peaches!!!!!!!!! :cry:

:?:

-He had such a rough time growing up.  His father punched him in the face constantly. 



OK : this was a big thing i had to learn with my daughters father. i can love him very much. i can feel sympathy, empathy, caring, ten million wonderful things, and i can and will love him, as i do, until i die, which i will  (hes not an n, just difficult) BUT NONE OF THAT MEANS I HAVE TO EITHER BE HIS DOORMAT OR ACCEPT UNHEALTHY BEHAVIOR.

i can love him until the cows come home, and still draw the line at unacceptable *behavior*.

you can love this person totally, and feel total sympathy for everything hes been through, but that will *never* mean you have to let him treat you in a way that you are not ok with...... and no matter what hes been through, if he cannot pull it together to treat you properly, -consistently- not just when he is afraid he is losing you, he is not ready to be in a relationship anyway...... mho.

stopping seeing him doesnt have to mean you dont care for him...... it just means this isnt working for you,  and you want something different for your own safety and health!

if he really loves you..... you know what..... he will support that. honest to g-d.


 

Can I not explain by email? 

dont explain! just dont be there.

take care and very very very best of luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i think your doing great in a really bad spot.
d'smom





Chicken

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #91 on: August 28, 2005, 03:46:55 PM »
good evening all!

Thank you to Longtire, Bunny, Mum, D'smum and Spyralle for your support and advice.

Well, I am still in contact with my Ex, he phones a lot everyday but I have managed to keep him away from visiting me.  I didn't exactly break up with him yet, well I did and then he sort of roped me in again.  I don't think I can handle an absolute clean break right now.  I am not making him any promises. 

I am torn in two with how to deal with the situation. 

Thoughts/Triggers that keep me with him

  • I feel I will always feel anxious in a relationship, so this is something I just have to work through
  • i feel like I need someone like him, someone who needs me badly, who would never abandon me, anything less than this, would make me feel insecure and unloved.  I need to be the one in control of the situation (though I would never abuse that power)
  • He talks about our future together and how amazing it would be, he is talking about living together and describes the flat and our lives...he paints a happy picture

I know the above is completely messed up.  This is me right now, this is where I am at.  I know it's distorted and twisted.  It is an unhealthy place to be.  yeuck!

Bunny said: Your counselor wouldn't judge you for feeling ambivalent about your boyfriend. She would never ask you to choose between him and her. She wouldn't judge you for taking a step back - ALL THERAPY CLIENTS DO THIS. She totally understands (or should) your unconscious reasons for going backward. Please be easy on yourself.

I realise this now, though I thought I would have to give him up in order to continue.  I guess we have a lot to work on now that he is half in, half out of the picture.  If I could only learn how to cut that cord that binds us together, it's the last step.  I told my counsellor that I want him to punch me in the face this time so I can have a reason to hate him again thus having a fresh opportunity to leave.  It's very very difficult for me to leave him on good terms.  I actually don't think it's possible at all, as I buckle when he pleads.  I am not strong enough.  Maybe I will learn how.  The main thing right now is keeping him at arms length I guess.

Mum said: I think you know this to be true. Yes, it is a good thing. As strange as it sounds......just throw yourself on the jagged edges of this pain. Be brave. You will not die.......well, actually, your old self may (the one you are so dissapointed in).
You are already MILES AHEAD of most people.  Please believe that. Why do I think that? Because you are soooo very brave. You are looking this monster (fear) in the face and not running away again. (into his arms....into blaming your past, whatever escape fits).

I think you are amazing. You are doing the hardest work of your life right now. This struggle will save you. You are powerful. You can do this.


Mum, I wish I had the strength to do this.  I feel like I am not doing it the right way.  I should dump him and stick to it and stop giving him mixed signals.  He can see me struggling and he is using it against me...  not on purpose, but he knows I am weak and he is finding a way to get to me through that weakness...  arrrrrgh!

d'smom said: first.. i dont think you do have to break up with him..... you can just kind of...... phase out..... just dont answer the phone so fast..... be busy when he calls more...... just dont be available.   wean him off of you (and you off of him)  he may resist this but, theres not much he can do if you just dont respond and slowly fade out of his life......... chances are 100% he will resist and it will be hard for you but, theres no law you have to be there every single time he wants you to be. right? doing the slow wean is totally acceptable way to 'break up'.

d'smom, this is exactly my plan.  I realise it's not the real strong woman, brave heroine way to do it, but it's the only way I can avoid the pain that triggers me going back to him.  i have to be just as strong and disciplined in doing it though, because as soon as I realise I am dumping him, I panic and run back to him, so I have to do it so slowly that even I don't notice.  He really is a manifestation of me you know.  He is that clingy, scared, panicky, helpless, dependant side of me, he represents my wounded child.  So long as I keep him happy, I am keeping myself happy, because he is a part of me in a sense...  oh God, I must sound so mental!  -but I know what i am saying! :?

Does anyone understand this?  It's the mirror aspect of a relationship.  it just goes to show that you do not meet the healthy ones until you heal yourself...  it's as simple as that.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 03:58:12 PM by Selkie »

amethyst

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #92 on: August 29, 2005, 01:02:57 AM »
Hi Selkie, I absolutely understand. I was addicted to someone like that. I felt so sorry for him, had so much pity for him. I could read Janet Geringer Woititz's  "Adult Children of Alcoholics" (which really should be titled "Adult Children of Any Kind of Dysfunction," lol) until my eyes burned and it didn't help. She states (I am paraphrasing) that Adult Children confuse pity with love and tend to love those that they can pity and rescue. Didn't make a dent. I was too enmeshed and addicted. I relapsed several times. 

I finally understood, years after I bottomed out on the relationship and was able to end it, that by trying to nurture the man I was addicted to, I was trying to nurture myself. You said it perfectly. "He really is a manifestation of me you know.  He is that clingy, scared, panicky, helpless, dependant side of me, he represents my wounded child.  So long as I keep him happy, I am keeping myself happy, because he is a part of me in a sense...  oh God, I must sound so mental!  -but I know what i am sayin"

You sound perfectly sane and what's more, you are on to yourself about the dynamics of the addiction. I have heard similar stories from fellow AA members that relapsed and started drinking again. After they got sober again and came back to meetings, they said they drank but couldn't enjoy it or justify it because they "knew too much" after having been in recovery. I finally got on to myself about the addictive relationship I was in...and I was appalled that I had put all this work and effort into it when it would have been so much easier just to nurture myself rather than indulging in all the trouble and tsuris and angst the relationship brought me. I finally went easier on myself when I realized that I had needed a mirror to finally see and understand the part of me that needed nurturing.

I always sound a little goofy when I talk about enmeshment and mirroring. I hope my post is understandable. 

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 01:04:50 AM by amethyst »

Chicken

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2005, 02:56:48 AM »
Amethyst,

You're post makes so much sense, thank you!  I am so glad I found this board because it has lead me to people who understand me at a deep level...  oh the relief! 

Sometimes I wonder if I nurture him, am I indirectly nurturing myself?  I guess it doesn't work like that, and I am forgetting that I am not nurturing myself by staying with him.  In order to nurture myself, I need to let him go.  He served his purpose, he held a mirror up to me.  I learned so very much by being with him.  Meeting him, brought my problem and the specifics of it out into the open.  I knew I wasn't happy in relationships, but had no idea, wasn't sure if it was their fault or mine, it was all a tangled state of confusion... My happiest times in life have been when I'm single.

Amethyst said:I have heard similar stories from fellow AA members that relapsed and started drinking again. After they got sober again and came back to meetings, they said they drank but couldn't enjoy it or justify it because they "knew too much" after having been in recovery.

Amethyst, did you go to AA?  Have you been to CoDA?  Did you find it helpful?  Can you explain exactly what goes on in those meetings and do you think I will find it benficial?  There is a meeting I can go to tonight, I didn't go as planned yesterday.  I bottled it. 

x Selkie x

amethyst

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2005, 05:49:43 AM »
Amethyst,

You're post makes so much sense, thank you!  I am so glad I found this board because it has lead me to people who understand me at a deep level...  oh the relief! 

Sometimes I wonder if I nurture him, am I indirectly nurturing myself?  I guess it doesn't work like that, and I am forgetting that I am not nurturing myself by staying with him.  In order to nurture myself, I need to let him go.  He served his purpose, he held a mirror up to me.  I learned so very much by being with him.  Meeting him, brought my problem and the specifics of it out into the open.  I knew I wasn't happy in relationships, but had no idea, wasn't sure if it was their fault or mine, it was all a tangled state of confusion... My happiest times in life have been when I'm single.

Amethyst said:I have heard similar stories from fellow AA members that relapsed and started drinking again. After they got sober again and came back to meetings, they said they drank but couldn't enjoy it or justify it because they "knew too much" after having been in recovery.

Amethyst, did you go to AA?  Have you been to CoDA?  Did you find it helpful?  Can you explain exactly what goes on in those meetings and do you think I will find it benficial?  There is a meeting I can go to tonight, I didn't go as planned yesterday.  I bottled it. 

x Selkie x

Hi Selkie, Yes, I have been in AA and Alanon for 18 years. Also have been to CoDA and just responded to that in your other thread.
I am sure you will find the meetings beneficial. Everyone is in the same boat, there is no leader, nobody is better or "more recovered" than anyone else, and people don't give advice (or shouldn't), they just talk about their own issues in relation to a topic or two. After a couple meetings, I realized that we codependents are all the same in that we are all wounded and working to heal. One of the things they will probably tell you is to take what you like and leave the rest, just in case there is someone there that triggers you. (It happens rarely, but it can.)  If a certain meeting doesn't resonate with you, you can just keep going back and trying others. I have found all meetings to be warm and welcoming.

The other thing I will say is that one never graduates from recovery. I have had people say,"Wow. Eighteen years and you still need meetings?" like I should have graduated or something.  :P The way I see it, my recovery is only as good as how I am working my program, and I just do it a day at a time. I might not "need" the meetings quite the way I did in the beginning, but I want to go to them as much as ever because I always come out better than when I went in.

 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 08:03:42 AM by amethyst »

Chicken

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #95 on: September 02, 2005, 02:36:24 PM »
Hello All...

Well I am back on the straight and narrow, the road to recovery...  I went to my counsellor the other day (I told her last week I would dump my Ex before our next session) and I was a bit ashamed and embarrased that I didn't fulfil my promise to myself and I had to tell her that he was still in the picture.  I proceeded to try to convince her (and myself) that I am in the process of weening myself off him and planning to slowly break up with him, meanwhile, back at the ranch I was clinging to him. 

So I decided to bite the bullet and end it with my EX.  He seems ok, we still talk on the phone and I am there for him if he needs to chat, but we don't see each other in person. 

When I was back with him, I realised that I didn't love him.  I didn't want to be in his company.  I felt bad about my self for taking him back and was embarrassed in front of my friends and flatmates to be seen with him.  I felt like I knew too much now and couldn't let myself relax and enjoy him, I saw the reality of the situation and it made me really ill to be with him.  There was a constant dialogue in my head whilst he was around...  I was down and depressed.

Ever since i left him, I have felt at peace.  I haven't felt any doubt about my decision, and though I feel incredibly lonely, I know I don't crave him.  I no longer associate him with love, comfort and peace.  I am finally in one mind!  I was exhausted with the to and fro-ing of deciding whether or not to go back...  there is none of that now thank God!

I am still continuing to educate myself about abusive relationships and what causes them because it is the only thing that can keep me in the reality and keep me out of the "blindness" of my relationships. 

I am reading "games people play" by Berne and it is incredibly eye opening...
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 02:42:00 PM by Selkie »

spyralle

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #96 on: September 02, 2005, 02:51:41 PM »
((((((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))))))))))

You said the other day that you were envious of me...  Now I feel the same about you x

I am so glad that you feel more at peace and have let yourself make the right decision.  I often think that if I were to see and speak to the ex that I crave so much I would probably feel the same.  Once it is all out in the open that smokescreen must vanish.  So your posting has been an inspiration to me this evening.  it's so nice to hear you say that you are in 'one mind'.

i am also glad that you are reading games people play.  It really makes you think about what you are getting into when you are locked into a 'game'.

I am so proud of you

Spyralle x

amethyst

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #97 on: September 02, 2005, 10:49:20 PM »
Hello All...

Well I am back on the straight and narrow, the road to recovery...  I went to my counsellor the other day (I told her last week I would dump my Ex before our next session) and I was a bit ashamed and embarrased that I didn't fulfil my promise to myself and I had to tell her that he was still in the picture.  I proceeded to try to convince her (and myself) that I am in the process of weening myself off him and planning to slowly break up with him, meanwhile, back at the ranch I was clinging to him. 

So I decided to bite the bullet and end it with my EX.  He seems ok, we still talk on the phone and I am there for him if he needs to chat, but we don't see each other in person. 

When I was back with him, I realised that I didn't love him.  I didn't want to be in his company.  I felt bad about my self for taking him back and was embarrassed in front of my friends and flatmates to be seen with him.  I felt like I knew too much now and couldn't let myself relax and enjoy him, I saw the reality of the situation and it made me really ill to be with him.  There was a constant dialogue in my head whilst he was around...  I was down and depressed.

Ever since i left him, I have felt at peace.  I haven't felt any doubt about my decision, and though I feel incredibly lonely, I know I don't crave him.  I no longer associate him with love, comfort and peace.  I am finally in one mind!  I was exhausted with the to and fro-ing of deciding whether or not to go back...  there is none of that now thank God!

I am still continuing to educate myself about abusive relationships and what causes them because it is the only thing that can keep me in the reality and keep me out of the "blindness" of my relationships. 

I am reading "games people play" by Berne and it is incredibly eye opening...

((((Selkie)))) Way to go!! Yay!! Congratulations!!!!

d'smom

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #98 on: September 03, 2005, 12:04:18 AM »
though I feel incredibly lonely, I know I don't crave him.  I no longer associate him with love, comfort and peace.   



just want to send you the best! im so  happy. i know its one step forward two back always but i think this is a great big step. and you know you can care for  him as a person without  being with him.

------------<<----<--<{@

im sending a rose for your anniversary of loving yourself :>  >>



longtire

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #99 on: September 03, 2005, 12:55:05 PM »
Great for you, Selkie!  :D  That's a real milestone of progress.  Keep up the good work and be true to yourself.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

Chicken

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2005, 04:56:50 AM »
Longtire, Amethyst, Spyralle, D'smom,

Thank you so much for your support and good wishes. 

I am dying as I type this, I feel so disgusted with myself.  I feel like I have not only let myself down but I feel like I have been stringing you along in the belief that I would never get back with him.  I really did feel like I wouldn't ever get back with him but I allowed him to come around yesterday.   :(

When I do finally get rid of him, it'll be like the boy who cried wolf.  I feel so disgusting that I want to get sick.  Everytime I am in his presence I fall deeper and deeper into a pit of self hatred, confusion, and general "wierd stuff".

I am loosing my hold on my own life and I really think it is because I am tangled up with him.  I feel like I am being punished by the Gods also.  I am being spooked constantly...Let me explain...

I used to work with my EX, he was my manager.  We had an argument at work one evening (which was honestly (!) entirely his fault) after which he told me to leave the establishment.  I then went to the General manager above him, and told him what happened.  I told him that it's best I left that job permenantly as I felt like I was making a spectacle of myself.  Everyone was talking about us.  My EX is very loud and was unable to hide the fact that we were having problems, he would shout and scream at me in front of my collegues.  Hours later he would be all lovey dovey to me.  I tried so hard to maintain a professional approach and always left my personal problems at the door.  All the staff hated my EX with a passion and never talked to him, but they liked me.  I always felt like I was caught in the middle.  He would feel left out if I chatted to them for too long and I felt like they didn't approve of me talking to him.  My relationship with my EX was secret to a certain degree.  I used to tell everyone that we had broken up, but failed to tell people when we got back together.  I just didn't want everyone involved in my relationship.  The on again off again thing was just a fiasco, and I felt that I was making a fool out of myself.  Anyway, I lost that job a month ago.

I have my own business and this is just part time work to support my income while my business is growing from a bud.  I need this money badly and have had to juggle bank accounts to pay my rent.  Anyway, I have been applying for a lot of work since and went for a trial shift the other night to a place.  The manager of this place liked me and offered me the position at the end of the shift.  He said he would call me the next day.  He didn't call me.  It's now three days later.  I was talking to my EX on the phone just now and he said that "maybe it's because of my age" and "maybe you need to work on yourself" and "well you're not well and I believe people can sense that"  I honestly believe that I didn't get the call because I am still with him.  I feel like I don't deserve good things in life because I am not doing good things for myself.  Is this possible?  or am I being so unbelievably paranoid and catholic?  I am a non practising catholic, but it is still engrained in me somehow...  I kind of have that belief that Life will reward me if I get rid of him, if I keep him, everything will fall to pieces.  I think this is why the employer didn't call me.  Is this crazy?

I am fuming!  i am fuming because I am so damn brainwashable.  I believe he has been brainwashing me and keeping me down, keeping a lid on me, sapping my energy and depleting me of my power.  I don't know how he is doing it...  It seems like just being in his energy is doing it.  I feel like I am becoming him and he is going to steal me, oh my God!  what the hell am I doing????!!!!

Let me describe him:  He plays the victim, he is always "depressed", he is a tortured kind of person.  He is angry (ALL OF MY BOYFRIENDS HAVE BEEN VERY VERY ANGRY!) he treats people on the street like sh*t.  He treats waiters/waitresses like sh*t.  He has a very abrupt way of talking to people and never considers peoples feelings, he is extremely controlling and overbearing.  He never respects peoples boundaries.  He does what he wants regardless of people's protests.   He is selfish....  oh I could go on but need I say more.  The reason I am bringing this up is I feel like I am taking on some of his characteristics unknownst to myself and I am being brought down.  I felt like it was ok to be with him these last few weeks as he has been wonderful and caring and none of the bad behaviour has surfaced.  So why am I feeling like this when he has been well behaved? 

Anyway, I told him this morning that I want to end it (again) 
Don't congratulate me...  I don't deserve it!  I have to take it one hour at a time as we often break up a few times a day.  I really wish he would protect himself and keep away, why do i have to do all the work for both of us?  I know if someone broke it off with me I wouldn't constantly try to get them back.  A guy dumped me a year ago and I erased his number and never contacted him ever again.  Why doesn't he have a little respect for himself? 

Sorry for the long post...  I really needed to get it out of me...  I am sick, much sicker than I think.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2005, 04:58:49 AM by Selkie »

d'smom

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #101 on: September 04, 2005, 07:49:01 AM »
I am fuming!  i am fuming because I am so damn brainwashable.  I believe he has been brainwashing me and keeping me down, keeping a lid on me, sapping my energy and depleting me of my power.  I don't know how he is doing it...  It seems like just being in his energy is doing it.  I feel like I am becoming him and he is going to steal me, oh my God!  what the hell am I doing????!!!!

I felt like it was ok to be with him these last few weeks as he has been wonderful and caring and none of the bad behaviour has surfaced.  So why am I feeling like this when he has been well behaved? 

Anyway, I told him this morning that I want to end it (again) 
Don't congratulate me...  I don't deserve it!  I have to take it one hour at a time as we often break up a few times a day. 



im not surprised selkie. this could take months. the reason your 'feeling like this' when hes 'well behaved' is becuase this behavior is kind of an act. you are starting to figure that out now that the jerky him is actualy the real him, or at least its enough of him that you dont want to deal with it.  its disgusting that he wont respect your bouindaries but it -isnt- any surprise!!!!

i cut out these quotes for you:   it might help you in a moment of insanity to do some reading on real actual brainwashing.....  it has a lot of resemblance to what narcissists do. i think its a huge overlap.  see if you recognise some of these techniques. just sift through the cult stuff and replace the word 'cult' with 'n'.   





from  <http://www.ex-cult.org/fwbo/terms.htm>

"For a while, an ex-member may exist in a sort of limbo between the cult world and the outside world, unsure which to believe in. To the extent that the cult belief system retains any degree of respect or credibility within an ex-member's mind, then to that extent leaving the group will seem like abandoning the ideals and aspirations of the group's belief system, and therefore like a failure.

On the other hand, to the extent that the cult belief system fails to retain credibility and is eschewed, to that extent an ex-member will tend to feel shame at their foolishness and gullibility in having once adopted beliefs and aspired to ideals which they now regard as unrealistic.

So either they are a failure, or a gullible fool. Either way their self-confidence takes a knock, and they may find it difficult to have any faith in their own judgement, or in their ability to make sensible decisions. For a while, they may not know what to believe, or who to trust...."


from <http://www.freeminds.org/psych/thought_reform.htm>


"......With drugs, physical pain, torture, or even a physically coercive threat, you can often temporarily make someone do something against their will. You can even make them do something they hate or they really did not like or want to do at the time. They do it, but their attitude is not changed.

   This is much different and far less devastating than that which you are able to achieve with the improvements of coercive persuasion. With coercive persuasion you can change people's attitudes without their knowledge and volition. You can create new "attitudes" where they will do things willingly which they formerly may have detested, things which previously only torture, physical pain, or drugs could have coerced them to do.  The advances in the extreme anxiety and emotional stress production technologies found in coercive persuasion supersede old style coercion that focuses on pain, torture, drugs, or threat in that these older systems do not change attitude so that subjects follow orders "willingly." Coercive persuasion changes both attitude and behavior, not just behavior.


THE PURPOSES AND TACTICS OF COERCIVE PERSUASION


 .....The essential strategy used by those operating such programs is to systematically select, sequence and coordinate numerous coercive persuasion tactics over continuous periods of time. There are seven main tactic types found in various combinations in a coercive persuasion program. A coercive persuasion program can still be quite effective without the presence of ALL seven of these tactic types.

TACTIC 1. The individual is prepared for thought reform through increased suggestibility and/or "softening up," specifically through hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: A. Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills; B. Excessive exact repetition of routine activities; C. Decreased sleep; D. Nutritional restriction. [or promise of 'love']

TACTIC 2. Using rewards and punishments, efforts are made to establish considerable control over a person's social environment, time, and sources of social support. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. (In the forerunner to coercive persuasion, brainwashing, this was rather easy to achieve through simple imprisonment.)

TACTIC 3. Disconfirming information and nonsupporting opinions are prohibited in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed.

TACTIC 4. Frequent and intense attempts are made to cause a person to re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control, and defense mechanisms as well as getting them to reinterpret their life's history, and adopt a new version of causality.

TACTIC 5. Intense and frequent attempts are made to undermine a person's confidence in himself and his judgment, creating a sense of powerlessness.

TACTIC 6. Nonphysical punishments are used such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques for creating strong aversive emotional arousals, etc.

TACTIC 7. Certain secular psychological threats [force] are used or are present: That failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief, or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequence, (e.g. physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc.)......."......




i think these people definitely brainwash us with these techniques...... it has to do with our innermost beliefs. either we believed in something 'good' which means we shouldnt leave and were crazy to think something is wrong, or we believed in something 'bad' meaning we were foolish and taken in by lies. its hard to know which is which and you swing back and forth figuring it out.

either way go easy on  yourself, this could take a very long time. just take little tiny baby steps, and keep at it.
d'smom










vunil

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2005, 01:05:11 PM »
Selkie, you are definitely in a cycle of abuse.  I think I posted about it before, but it is worth looking up the concept on the net, maybe reading about it in some books.  Your situation is classic.

When you write of him, he doesn't sound remotely appealing!  But something must appeal to you in him. Maybe exploring what that is would be helpful, in your therapy, your codependency meetings, here, wherever.  There is some reason you are involved with someone you find pretty fundamentally yucky, at least consciously.  Do you like the idea of rescuing him? Is it fun to feel superior to him?  Is there a high when he comes back after you break up?  Is fighting secretly fun and sexy?  Is fighting a way for you to yell at past people in your life-- is he a proxy for that?  Is it easier to be with him and feel distant from him than to work on your own issues (i.e., does he keep you psychologically busy)?  Is it easier to be with him than to try to find someone who you don't feel superior to who might genuinely develop intimacy with you? 

Maybe just working through what you like about him will lead to some resolution. In the meanwhile, check out that cycle of abuse. It dovetails nicely with everything d's mom wrote, just with the added part of the roller-coaster of the breaking-up/making-up, which at some level you like because you keep doing it.

Oh, and I don't think berating yourself is going to do you any good!  If anything it makes it all worse, more heady than it needs to be.  Just for perspective-- you didn't marry him last night.  You slept with him (I'm guessing).  So what?  Sometimes people like to sleep with other people.  Give yourself a break. Making it a BIG DECISION undercuts all the work you have done and isn't true anyway-- you didn't abandon all of your previous thoughts/feelings. You just slept with him.  That's all.  In the morning you changed your mind.  You aren't the first person to do that  !  It's not a big thing. It does not condemn you to lose all future jobs and to become him.  I promise.

spyralle

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2005, 02:34:05 PM »
(((((((((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))))))))))))  This nut job is the sick one.....  Not you sweetheart.  You are caught up in this cycle sure, but please stop whipping yourself.  You have said to me many times that you wish I could see what a s**tbag my ex is.  Try and look objectively here at his horrible hysterical behaviour....  He is no where near worthy to be anywhere near you.  BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU SICK........!!!!!!!

I know just what you mean about feeling as if you have taken on some of his characteristics.  I feel the same I think I ended up more like my ex and him more like the way i was....  Yuck makes me want to shower in boiling water...  I am a non practising Catholic too so I know where you are coming from with all that supersticious stuff.  I was trying to explain that about my mum last night.  It's trying to balance what you do with what will happen, but you know what lets do what we want and hang the consequences.  i am beginning to believe that if we are true to ourselves, and learn to love and respect ourselves without deliberately harming others then surely that is enough.

And I will congratulate you because you are posting here and holding on in this battle... and you know what else...you are going to win to.... So There.... x

Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxx

longtire

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Re: A string of unfulfilling relationships...
« Reply #104 on: September 04, 2005, 06:27:48 PM »
I am dying as I type this, I feel so disgusted with myself.  I feel like I have not only let myself down but I feel like I have been stringing you along in the belief that I would never get back with him.  I really did feel like I wouldn't ever get back with him but I allowed him to come around yesterday.   :(
Selkie, enjoy the good times when things are going well and you are making visible progress.  Try not to beat yourself up when you are making a cycle and the progress is less visible.  I think of it like going around the dark side of the moon to get the momentum you need to slingshot back to earth.  It is lonely and dark "over there" but sometimes it is the only way to get up enough energy when you have been depleted for so long.

Reading vunil's post made me wonder whether you might be using him as an excuse to beat up on yourself?  Were there other situations growing up where either your parentsor others picked on you and told you (no matter how non-verbally) that you didn't matter or were to blame for "things" that you had nothing to do with?  Just a thought.

Quote from: Selkie
When I do finally get rid of him, it'll be like the boy who cried wolf.  I feel so disgusting that I want to get sick.  Everytime I am in his presence I fall deeper and deeper into a pit of self hatred, confusion, and general "wierd stuff".
If you only feel that way around him, then I think it is really his stuff he is projecting onto you.  In other words, that is the way he always feels and so he tries to be around people who will shoulder that burden for him so he doesn't actually have to feel his own life.  It sounds like you are not sure of your boundaries.  Maybe you could start lists of things you do like and you don't like.  Maybe you could start rating things for how much you like them:  this mornings tube ride, the color of that woman's blouse, today's weather, etc.  You don't ever have to justify your rating, you can just state it, even if it just to yourself.

Quote from: Selkie
I kind of have that belief that Life will reward me if I get rid of him, if I keep him, everything will fall to pieces.  I think this is why the employer didn't call me.  Is this crazy?
I think that is exactly the effect that these people have on others.  It still seems like you are protecting him by making up curses and gods etc. when the simple explanation that this is what he does to people will suffice.  I have done this one quite a bit myself, so it seems familiar.  As to the manager not calling, I think you should call him back to find out what happened.  He at least owes you an apology even if he doesn't hire you.  Maybe, though, it doesn't have anything to do with you.  Maybe he had emergencies and fell behind in getting back to you.  I know this has happened to me on more than one occasion.  On the other hand maybe he is afraid of confrontation and will just passive-aggressive his way out of problems.  If that's the case you may be better off NOT working for him.

Quote from: Selkie
Let me describe him:  He plays the victim, he is always "depressed", he is a tortured kind of person.  He is angry (ALL OF MY BOYFRIENDS HAVE BEEN VERY VERY ANGRY!) he treats people on the street like sh*t.  He treats waiters/waitresses like sh*t.  He has a very abrupt way of talking to people and never considers peoples feelings, he is extremely controlling and overbearing.  He never respects peoples boundaries.  He does what he wants regardless of people's protests.   He is selfish....  oh I could go on but need I say more.  The reason I am bringing this up is I feel like I am taking on some of his characteristics unknownst to myself and I am being brought down.  I felt like it was ok to be with him these last few weeks as he has been wonderful and caring and none of the bad behaviour has surfaced.  So why am I feeling like this when he has been well behaved?
It's called a "hoover" like the vacuum cleaner brand.  When they want to suck you back in again.

Quote from: Selkie
Anyway, I told him this morning that I want to end it (again) 
Don't congratulate me...  I don't deserve it!  I have to take it one hour at a time as we often break up a few times a day.  I really wish he would protect himself and keep away, why do i have to do all the work for both of us?  I know if someone broke it off with me I wouldn't constantly try to get them back.  A guy dumped me a year ago and I erased his number and never contacted him ever again.  Why doesn't he have a little respect for himself?
People on the N side of the spectrum are not (consiously) burdened by conscience or shame over their actions.  They live in a fantasy where they are better than everyone else, so they believe they don't need to take others into account.  I'll bet each time you tell him it is over gets easier, doesn't it?  It may just be too hard for you to do that all at once right now.  Keep practicing and one day it'll stick.  Probably without you even realizing it right away.

longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)