Author Topic: faith and self  (Read 3079 times)

daylily

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faith and self
« on: June 19, 2005, 03:42:23 PM »
I'm starting a new thread because I don't want to divert the discussion within another thread, and this is some distance off the original topic.

Another participant recently wrote:

Quote
Oh and dont even get me started on my christian soap box, martyr martyr  martyr. I dont mean to offend any christians in here, but I grew up catholic and pretty much hating myself, born sinner, shameful to be human, and all that. I think it is against the christian law to be "selfish" or what they should really say, it is against the law to be POWERFUL because then we might not NEED the church.


While I'm not exactly offended, I do want to point out that there is another way of looking at Christianity in general, and Catholicism--with its doctrinal emphasis on "works" as well as "faith"--in particular.  Many theologians and psychological theorists have argued that it is only through service to others that we can realize ourselves.  I don't think by "service" these thinkers have meant an unhealthy subordination to another's will.  On the contrary, I think they mean an entirely healthy subordination of the individual ego to an idea, or ideal, of love.

In Man's Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl wrote:  "But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue....As we see, a human being is not one in pursuit of happiness but rather in search of a reason to become happy, last but not least, through actualizing the potential meaning inherent and dormant in a given situation."  One could easily substitute "salvation" for "happiness" in the above passage and have a fairly convincing explanation of salvation-through-works.

My point is simply that while many people have absorbed guilt and repression from Christianity, I believe that religion contains some gentler, more healing truths as well.  I was raised Catholic, long enough ago to have encountered some truly frightening nuns.  Too much attention was paid to getting us to kneel on cue, not enough to explaining what we were kneeling to.  It was not until I got older and read some of the great Catholic thinkers for myself that I got an idea that a very human, useful love is at the core of Catholic theology.  The Church is a human institution, despite its protestations to the contrary, and it bears some very human blemishes of arrogance, ignorance, and self-protection.  But underneath these flaws--sometimes far underneath--there is a core of love.  What is the Incarnation but the ultimate subordination of ego to love?  And how can any Christian religion truly teach that it is "shameful" to be human when, by definition, its core belief has to be that humans have been redeemed by God Himself?  And if one calls oneself a Christian, of any denomination, doesn't that also imply a responsibility to learn from the greatest example of love ever offered?  It is Christ's human moment, the moment in Gethsemane, that renders the whole story so meaningful.  In that moment, He knows both who He is and what He has been called to do.  He admits that He has a choice, and He chooses to serve.

I fear that many people will misread me as an apologist for the Catholic church.  This is not true.  I struggle with the idea of whether I should continue to call myself a Catholic when I disapprove so completely of the church's handling of recent events.  However, I remain at least nominally identified with the Church because of what lies beneath its harmful, even sinful, surface.  

Finally, I do want to say something about the idea of individual power.  In many ways, power is the enemy of faith, because it puts the ego at the center of consciousness.  I would say that most creeds seek to put God at the center of consciousness.  Some people find it enormously comforting to believe that there is something greater than, and beyond, the self.  In other words, perhaps it is at least as true that over-reliance on individual power means that we don't "need" God as it is that we don't "need" the Church.  Humility is not the same thing as dependence, in my opinion.  The sin of pride is not about failing to subordinate oneself to others, but about thinking one is completely self-sufficient and self-created. One can believe in God as greater than the self without losing one's individual will.

I'm reminded of the Serenity Prayer, so often invoked by 12-step programs:  "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."  What I particularly like about this prayer is that it does not in any way excuse the individual from responsibility or the need to act.  But it recognizes at the same time that wisdom, and even grace, may come from a source outside the individual.

I started and deleted this post several times.  I feel very strongly that service is not subordination, symbols are not lies, and love is not weakness.  I've tried to say what I wanted to say without attacking anyone else's experience.  I hope everyone else here will do the same.

Best,
daylily

Anonymous

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faith and self
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2005, 04:21:49 PM »
daylily,

You are quite a thinker and skilled writer - as you already know!  I'm Jewish. however I have always been fascinated by Christian iconography. I am really drawn to European religious art and find it very emotionally powerful. So I'm more into the imagery and don't know much about the practiced theology or church services. And this is all beside the point. My experience is that whether a person is Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, or whatever, they will have to deal with the leaders (dead and alive) and doctrines of that institution and accept them, make some adaptations, or reject them. But it's not necessary to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The essence of most religions(imo) is to have some moral values, some ethical behaviors, and stay within those bounds. If this is done because of humility, submission, following commandments, going according to revered philosophies, all that is ok.

bunny

Stormchild

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faith and self
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2005, 06:09:33 PM »
G.K. Chesterton: "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult, and left untried."

I think you have captured the essence of that difficult ideal, daylily.

What is often substituted in its stead deserves the censure it receives, but is also all too often not recognized for the poor imitation that it really is.

Thank you for making the comparison.

mum

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faith and self
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2005, 07:22:21 PM »
Daylily. What a wonderful post.  Thank you for expressing yourself so beautifully (as usual).
I think the issue, for me,  with religious training, is that God cannot be  one size fits all.  The concept of God is at once individual and universal.  I grew up Catholic and a lot of what I learned, my inerpretation as an individual, did cause me to lose myself, lose my power.
 
Quote
Finally, I do want to say something about the idea of individual power. In many ways, power is the enemy of faith, because it puts the ego at the center of consciousness. I would say that most creeds seek to put God at the center of consciousness. Some people find it enormously comforting to believe that there is something greater than, and beyond, the self. In other words, perhaps it is at least as true that over-reliance on individual power means that we don't "need" God as it is that we don't "need" the Church. Humility is not the same thing as dependence, in my opinion. The sin of pride is not about failing to subordinate oneself to others, but about thinking one is completely self-sufficient and self-created. One can believe in God as greater than the self without losing one's individual will.

I think the biggest lie we are ever told is that God is seperate from ourselves. If God is to be the center of consiousness, and consiousness exists in each individual mind and soul, then there is no God outside of ourselves. It is not pride but just the opposite to feel God at the center of ourselves.  The "sin" if you will, lies in believing that we are seperate from God.  This belief is at the center of all human suffering.
Ego is NOT feeling God and love as our motivation and intention in life.  True power, as true love, does not present itself in any other way than just that. Loving intention and caring for others is how this plays out.  Loving God in ourselves, seeking to align that purity at our core with the struggle of being human, that is what it looks like in humanity.

I never quite understood the doctrine as a child, that had us repeat "God is in all of us" and also, that God was a seperate entity.  Didn't make sense to me.

You will  find no arguement to your assessment that at the core of every religion, is love.  I would go so far as to say that God IS love...oh wait they told us that in CCD as well!!
Religion, made by man, cannot be perfect as man is not.  It is our nature to be fallible, and our salvation is to try to come back to pure love/God.
"He" is not "out there" for me to prostrate myself before.  God is internal, for me to be humbled by repeatedly, as this is also at the core of everyone, however damaged by the human experience they are.  Loving ourselves IS loving God.  Getting back to love......That is what life is for.  How we get there, is the drama called life.
It's a blast, isn't it?

guestyr

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Re: faith and self
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2005, 02:12:17 PM »
GASP ITS COSMIC JOE;)
AH A CHANCE FOR COSMIC JOE TO RESTATE AND MAYBE DEVELOP
SOME OF HIS COSMIC STUFF J
The purpose of the soul is to know itself as an eternal individual spiritual entity
Consisting of soul, mind, and will….that can be fully attuned to the whole
And yet is not the whole….
And when mind and will exercise faith in their creator then the spiritual entity
Is a fully realized co-creator with other individual spiritual beings

Happy ah etymologically I believe from word meaning to fit..
So happiness is fitting fully as an attuned part of the whole
By considering the needs of others before one’s own
Thru faith and obedience to the creator

Ah then of course reincarnation as part of the process
Jesus as the first begotten of the dead
And not neglecting that tho there probably is a hell
It is not eternal rather the greek methinks means more for long ages
..
and the practice of such is based on considering the need of others before one’s own
..now this also has discernment as to how best discern direction and needs…


Quote from: daylily
I'm starting a new thread because I don't want to divert the discussion within another thread, and this is some distance off the original topic.

Another participant recently wrote:

Quote
Oh and dont even get me started on my christian soap box, martyr martyr  martyr. I dont mean to offend any christians in here, but I grew up catholic and pretty much hating myself, born sinner, shameful to be human, and all that. I think it is against the christian law to be "selfish" or what they should really say, it is against the law to be POWERFUL because then we might not NEED the church.


While I'm not exactly offended, I do want to point out that there is another way of looking at Christianity in general, and Catholicism--with its doctrinal emphasis on "works" as well as "faith"--in particular.  Many theologians and psychological theorists have argued that it is only through service to others that we can realize ourselves.  I don't think by "service" these thinkers have meant an unhealthy subordination to another's will.  On the contrary, I think they mean an entirely healthy subordination of the individual ego to an idea, or ideal, of love.

In Man's Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl wrote:  "But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue....As we see, a human being is not one in pursuit of happiness but rather in search of a reason to become happy, last but not least, through actualizing the potential meaning inherent and dormant in a given situation."  One could easily substitute "salvation" for "happiness" in the above passage and have a fairly convincing explanation of salvation-through-works.

My point is simply that while many people have absorbed guilt and repression from Christianity, I believe that religion contains some gentler, more healing truths as well.  I was raised Catholic, long enough ago to have encountered some truly frightening nuns.  Too much attention was paid to getting us to kneel on cue, not enough to explaining what we were kneeling to.  It was not until I got older and read some of the great Catholic thinkers for myself that I got an idea that a very human, useful love is at the core of Catholic theology.  The Church is a human institution, despite its protestations to the contrary, and it bears some very human blemishes of arrogance, ignorance, and self-protection.  But underneath these flaws--sometimes far underneath--there is a core of love.  What is the Incarnation but the ultimate subordination of ego to love?  And how can any Christian religion truly teach that it is "shameful" to be human when, by definition, its core belief has to be that humans have been redeemed by God Himself?  And if one calls oneself a Christian, of any denomination, doesn't that also imply a responsibility to learn from the greatest example of love ever offered?  It is Christ's human moment, the moment in Gethsemane, that renders the whole story so meaningful.  In that moment, He knows both who He is and what He has been called to do.  He admits that He has a choice, and He chooses to serve.

I fear that many people will misread me as an apologist for the Catholic church.  This is not true.  I struggle with the idea of whether I should continue to call myself a Catholic when I disapprove so completely of the church's handling of recent events.  However, I remain at least nominally identified with the Church because of what lies beneath its harmful, even sinful, surface.  

Finally, I do want to say something about the idea of individual power.  In many ways, power is the enemy of faith, because it puts the ego at the center of consciousness.  I would say that most creeds seek to put God at the center of consciousness.  Some people find it enormously comforting to believe that there is something greater than, and beyond, the self.  In other words, perhaps it is at least as true that over-reliance on individual power means that we don't "need" God as it is that we don't "need" the Church.  Humility is not the same thing as dependence, in my opinion.  The sin of pride is not about failing to subordinate oneself to others, but about thinking one is completely self-sufficient and self-created. One can believe in God as greater than the self without losing one's individual will.

I'm reminded of the Serenity Prayer, so often invoked by 12-step programs:  "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."  What I particularly like about this prayer is that it does not in any way excuse the individual from responsibility or the need to act.  But it recognizes at the same time that wisdom, and even grace, may come from a source outside the individual.

I started and deleted this post several times.  I feel very strongly that service is not subordination, symbols are not lies, and love is not weakness.  I've tried to say what I wanted to say without attacking anyone else's experience.  I hope everyone else here will do the same.

Best,
daylily

b/k

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faith and self
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2005, 04:46:30 PM »
Hi there.

Cosmic Joe wrote,
Quote
Ah then of course reincarnation as part of the process
Jesus as the first begotten of the dead


Cosmic Joe, I'm not sure if you are saying that you believe Jesus was reincarnated.  I don't want to say anything til I know your stand.  Thanks.

Butterfly

COSMICreply2butterfly

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faith and self
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2005, 05:20:34 PM »
yes i mean i think jesus, the last adam,
had previous incarnations...
even before the adamic line that began with adam..
one a few traditional christians occasionally consider
is melchisedec..
now mind u when in hebrews it says jesus came
as it says in chapter 9

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

i think the greek for ONCE IN THE END can mean one final last
time at the end...
as for that other passage in hebrews
appointed once to die and then comes judgement
that is fairly clearly in context once to die to sin
..to the fleshly rule over the soul....

besides melchisedec
joshua the high priest
after babylon
read minor prophet book zechariah on this

tho both i and cayce
wonder some about the material
i think most of the edgar cayce material
is good
google.com edgar-cayce:)

b/k

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faith and self
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2005, 06:41:14 PM »
Hey Cosmic Joe,

Thanks for your reply!  Isn't it so fascinating that Scripture can be interpreted in so many ways?!  Sure, we are always in search of truth about God, the universe, ourselves, others, etc.  You name it.  I agree with what you said about humans as spiritual being always seeking to be "attuned to the whole".  By nature, we understand things best when they come in wholes, as oppose to fragments.  So our minds are constantly finding ways to fill in the gaps in every dimension of our thoughts.

Here's a question:  Do you think it is more important to find or create your own reality or more important to seek the truth of reality?  Which one do you think is valid?  For argument sake, I think it's irrelevant whether you believe the sun will rise tomorrow or not.  It will rise whether you believe it or not.  Perhaps, the whole idea is to do everything you can to tune in to that reality.  Absolutely, what each person believes is very important.  But, I see so many religions created in the world.  And each one seems to claim their religion embodies the truth of God, etc.  But, I think what it all boils down to is whether we are widening our field of vision and tuning our hearing enough to see and hear truth that is present all around us.  It is often hidden in plain sight, isn't it?

Pardon my generalization.  I know, a lot can be said about this.

Have a happy Thursday all,
Butterfly

O COSMIC JOE ONE

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faith and self
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2005, 03:28:15 PM »
WELL AS A KIJND OF ANSWER TO YOUR QUERIE
THAT I HAVE AT END OF THIS POST..
tis said there are many paths that lead to god
..now there i think are very grievous misspins
on that and then mine :) the correct one obviously..

namely beware their are paths chosen selfishly
and foolish that for awhile take one further away
from where the coulda been
and their are paths that are more wise and true
that lead to the one reality
wherein one as an individual eternal spiritual entity
is fully attuned with that ultimate reality
whereby perfect love has caste out all fear
such that one goes past the fear of god
as the beginning of knowledge...
as achieves full understanding...
now mind u
even an enlightened being as myself:P

when active in the finite material flesh body
does not have access the all the consciousness
of the divine christ mind
rather is supplied if the faith is proper
of the info necessary to deal with what is at hand...
in the way that reveal divine love...
and with pms
namely prayer meditation and service
when in mediation
has stilled the material flesh body
can access the full consciousness of the divine mind
perhaps
but methinks fer sure
all believers who go beyond the kingdom of heaven
and enters the kingdom of god
where all believers become christed
and are sons of god
and perhaps even in the kingdom of heaven..the messianic realm
that comes out of the kingdom of god...
there all believers
as sons of god
are in their glorified soul body
not a physical material flesh body
but a physical body of a different order :)

Quote from: b/k
Hey Cosmic Joe,

Thanks for your reply!  Isn't it so fascinating that Scripture can be interpreted in so many ways?!  Sure, we are always in search of truth about God, the universe, ourselves, others, etc.  You name it.  I agree with what you said about humans as spiritual being always seeking to be "attuned to the whole".  By nature, we understand things best when they come in wholes, as oppose to fragments.  So our minds are constantly finding ways to fill in the gaps in every dimension of our thoughts.

Here's a question:  Do you think it is more important to find or create your own reality or more important to seek the truth of reality?  Which one do you think is valid?  For argument sake, I think it's irrelevant whether you believe the sun will rise tomorrow or not.  It will rise whether you believe it or not.  Perhaps, the whole idea is to do everything you can to tune in to that reality.  Absolutely, what each person believes is very important.  But, I see so many religions created in the world.  And each one seems to claim their religion embodies the truth of God, etc.  But, I think what it all boils down to is whether we are widening our field of vision and tuning our hearing enough to see and hear truth that is present all around us.  It is often hidden in plain sight, isn't it?

Pardon my generalization.  I know, a lot can be said about this.

Have a happy Thursday all,
Butterfly

b/k

  • Guest
faith and self
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2005, 06:04:58 PM »
Cosmis Joe wrote:
Quote
tis said there are many paths that lead to god
..now there i think are very grievous misspins
on that and then mine  the correct one obviously..


Yep, I was afraid my general previous post lends itself to misinterpretation.  My fault.  I could understand how you came to this conclusion with what I wrote.  My belief is quite the contrary to the above.  What I was getting at is that when we are so focused on defending our own understanding of truth and so sure of ourselves, we miss the truth, b/c we only see and hear what we want.  As I see it, truth is like the ocean, the wisest person ever to walk this earth has only but swallow a gulp of the ocean's water.  Realizing this puts me in awe and reverance to the Creator of this universe and beyond.  As there is only one right key to fit in the lock, so there is only one way to eternal unity our Maker.  The amount of knowledge we have is only but a grain of sand.

tit4tatMISINTERPRETS:)

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faith and self
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2005, 12:56:53 PM »
OH MY WHAT A TANGLED WEB TIS MADE OF SIMPLICITY AT TIMES:)
AU CONTRAIRE SP? MY DEAR
METHINKS MAY BE MORE THAT YOU MISINTERPETED
THAN I MISINTERPRETED

TAKIN FROM RAYMOND'S WIFE...
JUST SO U KNOW :o)

BUT THIS CAN SUFFICE ON THIS TANGLED UP
THINGY FOR NOW OR ONE CAN CONTINUE PERCHANCE
TO LOOK AND RAVEL AND UNRAVEL...
BUT BY THE BY MIGHT U BE MORE SPECIFIC AS TO SOME
OF THE PARTICULARS OF YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM

...SAY IN REGARDS TO JESUS AND REINCARNATION]
AND HMMM ATLANTIS AND HMMM LEMURIA
NOT TO MENTION ARCTURUS AND BEYOND :)

Quote from: b/k
Cosmis Joe wrote:
Quote
tis said there are many paths that lead to god
..now there i think are very grievous misspins
on that and then mine  the correct one obviously..


Yep, I was afraid my general previous post lends itself to misinterpretation.  My fault.  I could understand how you came to this conclusion with what I wrote.  My belief is quite the contrary to the above.  What I was getting at is that when we are so focused on defending our own understanding of truth and so sure of ourselves, we miss the truth, b/c we only see and hear what we want.  As I see it, truth is like the ocean, the wisest person ever to walk this earth has only but swallow a gulp of the ocean's water.  Realizing this puts me in awe and reverance to the Creator of this universe and beyond.  As there is only one right key to fit in the lock, so there is only one way to eternal unity our Maker.  The amount of knowledge we have is only but a grain of sand.

b/k

  • Guest
faith and self
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2005, 06:25:42 PM »
Cosmic Joe,

This conversation is going nowhere.  So I will leave it at that.  

Take care,
Butterfly