Warning Signs You're Dating a Loser

[Gail]

I'm fairly new and have reading some of the old posts.  Someone recommended an article found on the following website:  http://www.drjoecarver.com/    The article is called "The Loser":  Warning Signs You're Dating A Loser."  Dr. Carver also has another great article on the website called "Love and the Stockholm Syndrome:  Loving an Abuser".

Wow!  I'm so grateful to whoever recommended that site!  Dr. Carver describes 20 different characteristics of a "loser"--someone who is not safe to have a relationship with.  He says if a person has even one of those characteristics, they are risky people.  If that person has three or more, you will almost certainly be damaged in some way. 

These characteristics include:

1.  Rough treatment (He says don't tolerate even one episode--get out immediately!)
2.  Quick attachment and expression
3.  Frightening temper
4.  Killing your self-confidence with put downs
5.  Cutting off support
6.  The mean and sweet cycle
7.  It's always your fault
8.  Breakup panic
9.  Encouraging you to drop outside interests
10. Paranoid control
11. Public embarrassment
12. It's never enough
13. Entitlement
14. Your friends and family dislike him/her
15. Bad stories (telling stories about previous acts of rejection, aggression, insensitivity, etc. without any remorse)
16. The Waitress test (how do they treat neutral people)
17. The reputation (either a bad one or an inconsistent one)
18. Causing you to walk on eggshells
19.  Discounting your feelings/opinions
20. Making you "crazy"

I checked off seven "for sures".  There were more I could have checked about BF, but gave him the benefit of the doubt. 

Enough for me!  I dried my eyes and thanked God that I got out when I did, especially after reading the next article about the Stockholm Syndrome.  This article explains why people love their abusers and why it's so hard to get out of those type of relationships.  Dr. Carver hypothesizes that we actually can have even more of an emotional investment with an abusive person than a nonabusive person. 

I'm printed out "The Loser" article and am going to encourage my children who are dating age to read it.

I'd like to encourage anyone else struggling to understand a relationship gone bad, or one that was never good, to read these articles.

Gail

[Moira]

Hi Gail- thanks for the list! Right on. My ex N is all those and more. i agree totally with the S. syndrome analogy. I now have a complete list of exactly what I want in a future relationship and exactly what I will not tolerate. non negotiable. Moira

[Sallying Forth]

Hi Gail,
I great book on losers is Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. I think it is THE best book out there and helps the victim understand what is happening in the mind of the perpetrator. It also helps you see if the abuser is changing when they get treatment.

[Awen]

Some guys are pretty subtle and it can be really hard to recognize what is going on if:

MOST of the time he is pretty charming, and the putdowns are "only teasing"

He doesn't "mistreat" waitresses, cashiers or female service personnel, he FLIRTS with them (the charm again)

He doesn't talk badly about your girlfriends, but he flirts openly with them or behaves inapropriately with them behind your back (they may be too embarrassed to say anything to you, but they somehow are too busy to talk or see much of you afterwards)

You may not realise that you are dropping outside interests as the ways in which he "encourages" (or forces) you to do so can be so subtle it seems to be entirely your decision. For example you need to go away for a weekend and he volunteers to take care of things for you, but "forgets" to water the plants or your cat gets out or whatever.  Soon you find your girlfriends are too busy to cover for you, or more likely, you don't want to hurt his feelings by asking someone else so next time you decide not to go, etc etc.  You do less and less of your independent activities and never realize how he engineered your eventual isolation

[Gail]

Awen,

Thank you for reminding me to consider some of the subtle clues as to what is going on.  It made me realize that I had more to face.  For example, the rough treatment item.  I did not even consider that applied to my relationship to X BF.  But then, I remembered his "neck rubs".  I often gave him very nice neck and back rubs because he had a lot of pain due to an automobile accident.  Then, unfortunately, I was in a very similar accident about 10 months ago that caused quite a bit of damage to my neck.  When I asked for a neck and shoulder rub because of the pain I was in, he squeezed the muscles really hard.  His rationale was he was "squeezing the blood out to get the muscle to stop spasming."  It was agony and I'd be squirming in pain, telling him to stop.  Needless to say, I didn't ask for many rubs!  Of course, maybe he really thought he was doing the right thing, but still...

It's hard because, in some ways, I want to think badly of him because it makes the end of the relationship easier to bear and I want to be realistic about the negatives.  On the other hand, I don't like thinking this badly of someone I cared for so much and had so many adventures with.  Isn't that part of what makes a relationship with someone with N tendencies so hard--the ambivalence?

Gail

[Gail]

Ah!  I just re-read my post and realized, whether or not he thought he was doing the right thing, it was another example of "not listening"--that same old "voicelessness" thing.  I told him what he was doing was really hurting me, but he kept doing it.  It didn't matter what I said.  And it happened more than once.  Occasionally, I would get a very short "feel good" type of rub, but mostly it was of the squeezing variety that was very painful. 

He also used to occasionally tell me that some woman deserved to be smacked for "disrespect".  I don't remember the particulars, but it might have been something on TV that triggered a comment like that or maybe some situation that we became aware of.   I don't think that he ever struck a woman, but it did make me feel a little uneasy.  I wasn't sure if he was serious or just kidding.

Now, I'm feeling almost panicky wondering why I didn't call him on it.

[Bloopsy]

hey almost all the guys I have ever dated have treated me that way  like in the list. No wonder getting into a relationship feels like getting maimed or something. ick.

[David P]

Hey yoall want to know something? Most of the 'ladies' whom I have dated did some of the things on the list too.
 This problem is obviously not only a male gender thing . Some women are possesive and go for
' ownership' within weeks. I have been bitten hard on the earlobe for no reason, swiped across the face,yelled at in the mall and grabbed and dragged on the dance floor and had a pot of boiling tea poured in my lap.  Dating is a blood sport -methinks!
DP

[Sallying Forth]

He also used to occasionally tell me that some woman deserved to be smacked for "disrespect".  I don't remember the particulars, but it might have been something on TV that triggered a comment like that or maybe some situation that we became aware of.   I don't think that he ever struck a woman, but it did make me feel a little uneasy.  I wasn't sure if he was serious or just kidding.

Now, I'm feeling almost panicky wondering why I didn't call him on it.

I doubt if he was kidding. Lundy talks about that in his book as well. What they say is about what they believe. He was 100% serious.

[Sallying Forth]

Some guys are pretty subtle and it can be really hard to recognize what is going on if:

MOST of the time he is pretty charming, and the putdowns are "only teasing"

Teasing is abusive but when I suffered that as a child (and had not dealt with that pain) I wouldn't think it was abusive.

You may not realise that you are dropping outside interests as the ways in which he "encourages" (or forces) you to do so can be so subtle it seems to be entirely your decision. For example you need to go away for a weekend and he volunteers to take care of things for you, but "forgets" to water the plants or your cat gets out or whatever.  Soon you find your girlfriends are too busy to cover for you, or more likely, you don't want to hurt his feelings by asking someone else so next time you decide not to go, etc etc.  You do less and less of your independent activities and never realize how he engineered your eventual isolation

There's a great book on what you're talking about here. It's called Why Men Love Bitches. It teaches women to define themselves and keep their own identity in relationships. Essentially when I am dropping outside interests I am deciding that I am not worth my own time. And this man I am dating is worth all my time and worth more than me. When a perp sees that he takes more and more. A nonperp might walk away because you're easy and a pushover. I've dated both kinds and seen both results.

[Stormchild]

Hey yoall want to know something? Most of the 'ladies' whom I have dated did some of the things on the list too.
 This problem is obviously not only a male gender thing . Some women are possesive and go for
' ownership' within weeks. I have been bitten hard on the earlobe for no reason, swiped across the face,yelled at in the mall and grabbed and dragged on the dance floor and had a pot of boiling tea poured in my lap.  Dating is a blood sport -methinks!
DP

Dating an abuser is definitely a blood sport.

[Cadbury]

That article is the same one that Bunny posted in reponse to one of my first posts here. I think she had posted it before, but it was such an eye-opener! I was breaking up with my ex N bf then and was shocked to find he honest to God ticked all 20 points on the list. It was awful, but also liberating to know that I wasn't insane. It is coming up to a year ago that I first heard about this place and NPD and what a year it has been! I am still being messed up by him and everything he did and still does, but at least now I can come here and I don't feel so alone, which seems to help.

[Moira]

hi Stormchild! Just read your post and had to tell you your quote" Dating a loser is definately a blood sport" is one of the most spot on observations I've ever heard. Bang on. I'll be using your phrase if you don't mind! Later- Moira

[write]

The other must-read book for women is Patricia Evans The Verbally Abusive Relationship.
The Lundy Bancroft one is THE BIBLE on domestic violence but for women who aren't even sure they're being abused, it's subtle or intermittant and mostly verbal- the Patricia Evans book is perfect for outlining the syndrome and giving advice on what to do.
I know a few women who have only realised they are victims of abuse after reading this book.

[Moira]

Oops Stormchild!  Re; my previous post on your " blood sport" dating comment- damn dyslexia! I meant to say" abuser", not " loser"( although that works, yours is accurate!)