how do you find love (and know when you've found it)?

[vunil]

Ok, gurus--

I have a query for you-- does anyone have stories of healing from N relationships and finding great love relationships afterwards?  I am feeling like I have worked through a lot of my childhood, and I am (HOORAY) not attracted to assholes any more and I even know why I was attracted to them before.  I am feeling very full of love and strong and happy to be a mother (albeit tired).

But not I really crave love-- romantic love.  For the first time in my life I feel truly ready for it (I've had lots of it before, but it was always somehow tainted, usually because I was involved with someone narcissistic).  The problem is, I am feeling very unsure how to find it and how to recognize it when I do find it.  I am not sure what love looks like without all the drama-- it has been years since I had the drama, but also years since I have fallen in love.  I know the drama is stupid and not what I want-- and I am happy to be free of it.  But I am also just wanting to hear stories about this new thing I want-- really specific personal stories (for those willing to share) of good love  

How do I find it?  How do I know it when I do find it?  How do I face any lingering insecurities about it-- because it is a mystery to me, not something I have childhood experience with.  I do not want the marriages people in my family have.  I want something different.  How do I form that?  And how to I accept it when I find it, I who have not been given much love in my family without it being accompanied by other stuff?  I do have wonderful friends, so that is a place to start.  But I think others in my position will agree that we are at a disadvantage with this stuff, having learned so many terrible habits.

thanks, y'all.  Bring on the love stories...

[Brigid]

Vunil,
First I would say that you have already found the best love there is--the love of your beautiful baby girl.  But I know that is not what your talking about, so I'll just make a few comments.  In the last six months, I have been developing a relationship with a man who I believe I could love very deeply.  It started very slowly and casually and remained that way for about 4 months.  During that time we both dated other people, but always had a lot of fun when together and got to know each other better.  About 2 months ago, it became clear that we were both starting to have stronger feelings for each other.  The relationship then became exclusive and more involved.

I believe I have found love of some kind.  It may not be true love, the only love or forever love.  It is too soon for that, but it is a love of someone who makes me very happy.  It is hard to know for sure when in the early stages of a relationship, if it is just infatuation or real love.  I think only time and more experiences together will determine that.

I believe that through all the good therapy and self-reflection I have done for the last 2 years, that I was ready for this relationship and can analyze and process the feelings I have from a healthy perspective.  I started the dating process with some very firm guidelines of characteristics that absolutely needed to be present in a dating partner.  I never allowed myself to waiver from that or to compromise on the "must haves" (or have nots) with anyone I dated more than once.  I also checked people out thoroughly through whatever means possible.  After what I have been through, I could no longer blindly trust anyone I allowed into my life.

I would also say, that when dating at my age, there needs to be a willingness to compromise and be flexible.  We all have gotten to this point with a lot of baggage in tow and can be very set in our ways.  If we want to be in a commited relationship, we need to be able to be accepting of habits and behaviors which may be annoying, but are a part of who that person is--without thinking that you can change it.  If it is not something you can live with, then end the relationship and move on.

Bottom line--I may have found love.  I know I have found a great deal of happiness, contentment, passion and a new lease on life.  That is good enough for now and I'm just enjoying the ride.

Hugs,

Brigid

[mudpuppy]

Hi Vunil,

What do you mean by love?
Flowers every day? Infatuation? Kindness?

I am convinced the only thing that really counts is character.

The only people worth loving are those who will be beside you when you have a lengthy debilitating illness or some disfigurement. Someone who will be beside you when you're old and you have wrinkles on your wrinkles. When things don't go the way they are supposed to. When you make some completely retarded decision that gets you both in a lot of trouble or costs you both a lot of money.
Its easy to find people to love you when everything is great, if you define love as being nice and sweet.
I define it not as an emotion but as a decision, a commitment to put the other person's interests ahead of your own, come what may. To sacrifice yourself for the other person. Then if the other person does the same you have a perfect relationship.

A very smart guy once said 'There is no greater love than this, that a man should lay down his life for another.' I think that applies to romantic love at least as much as any other kind.

There are people like that out there. I know, I got one.

mud

[Moira]

Hi all! A comment on- sorry, having an Alzheimer's moment!- can't remember who said it- the quote about love being about sacrificing yourself for another and putting their interests first. Hope i got this right. Anyway- for me, sacrificing myself for another has always been the slippery slope to hell and a guarantee of losing myself completely and my life. I have never believed that any relationship- including good one- no matter who they're with or the context- is " 50/50". To my mind that's a false Hallmark card sentiment and one, unfortunately reinforced by everything in our society. All relationships have a balance of power as one person will always be in giving more mode and the other receiving more. It should, however, for a healthy relationship- be time limited and situation specific( ie. when one is sick or in a crisis, pain- ie psychic and emotional/spiritual). Always fluid and appropriate so one partner is not entrenched in the supreme giver mode while the other is the constant taker. Same as the concept, again, my opinion and experience- " that love is unconditional". All love has conditions. If one has good boundaries and loves oneself- easier said than done for those of us who have recurring relationships with Ns- there will be instances when someone we love will violate our standards and ethics in a " deal breaking" manner. I.e- for me, if someone is unfaithful- there is no road back for me- major trust issues and doesn't matter if they make even appropriate ammends. Huge trust issue and coming from N family and too many N relationships under my belt- non negiotable. Same as lying- major character flaw and again, huge trust issue. If someone makes me unhappy across the board and my inner voice is screaming at me that this is toxic and I'm lying to myself and losing myself in it- I am listening to it these days and cutting my losses. Even a " friendship[" with such a person can never be healthy because the abuse will continue just more at arm's length. I'm finding I am trusting my judgement again- for the first time in decades with relationships on all levels- and for me this is imperative to heal and achieve the happiness I know I deserve. Anyway- I'll apologize in advance- if I've missed the boat on direct quote! Moira

[mudpuppy]

Hi Moira,

Well, I agree that if you are in a relationship with a selfish person and you sacrifice yourself for that person you will have a very unhappy life as they will use your virtues against you. It is fairly important that you don't lay down on the altar of someone who enjoys human sacrifice.

If however two people are sacrificing themselves for the other then I believe you have the purest love we can experience.

I'm not talking about how to love an N. Vunil didn't ask that. She asked how to recognize true love with someone worthy of and able to give love, and she asked for our personal experiences of it.
My personal experience is that my wife and I sacrifice for each other and we have a wonderful marriage because of it.
I'm sorry you have experienced so many weirdos in your life but there really are people who don't keep track of who has given more to the other or whether everything is being kept on a nice 50/50 balance. There are people who place the happiness and well being of the other person before themselves. When both people do the result is a marriage as God intended it.

mud

[mum]

This is such an interesting topic, and "topical" as well, as I am getting married on Sunday.
The person I am marrying is definately not an N (well, glad I finally figured that one out!).

Vunil, I am not sure what I have to say will help you in any way, but here goes.
I don't think there is one  formula.  I don't think there is a way to figure it out, have all the work done ahead of time, etc etc.
There IS a lot of faith in the "unknown" involved.
        When my fiance and I first fell in love, way back when, in college, right away, we knew something was up that we had nothing to do with.  As if our love was extremely ancient, and inevitable.  When I left him four years later (we were engaged), and didn't speak to him for 22 years, I also knew that I was not "home" in any sense of the word. I had two fantastic children, and I am their home to be sure, but as far as a being "home" in my heart or my heart being home to someone else I assumed it would never exist for me.  Maybe by home I mean safe, pure, without any fear....

A huge part of that, was simply my path....the things I needed to experience, to learn about myself and how to be true to that self. Sure, it involved a few N's....but nonetheless, the learning had to be.  And I learned, and I got to a space, as you did,
Vunil, where I knew why I had made the "awful" choices I had before, and most importantly, I chose to love myself, something I never really did well before that.

When my fiance and I  re-connected, a few years ago, it was again,  "something bigger than us", (God perhaps) and although the story could fill a book, we are "home" again.  I thought about him for almost a year, without speaking to him, but thinking about him, feeling his kindness, seeing his face every day in my mind, not knowing that he was doing the same.  I didn't know it at the time, but we both were creating "us" again, without being aware of it, almost through thought and energy.

I think, Vunil, now you are in such an amazing space, personally, You are opening up to the universe, that you are healthy and strong, not needy, but simply "ready" to share your beautiful life with someone wonderful.
It IS a big mystery how it all happens, but not really....I think it's all about energy, and faith.  You put out energy with your expectations, and life steps up to meet those....and then you have faith, that the universe, or God, is loving, and wants to present you with what you need.  And it will.
Just so you don't think it's all "wishing and hoping" (huge, though), I would add that when you expect something, yet are not SO attached to getting it that you are unhappy in the meantime (oooh, that would just send out contradictory negative energy)...that you will begin to act in accordance with your intentions.  That's the way it works, I think.... if there is such a "way"...

[Brigid]

Mum,

This is such an interesting topic, and "topical" as well, as I am getting married on Sunday.

Congratulations!!!   Have you too been able to work out the living situation or will this continue to be a long-distance romance (marriage) for now?  I'm sure your kids are very happy for you (and them).  I wish you all the best and much happiness.

Many blessings and hugs,

Brigid

[vunil]

Congrats, Mum!  And to Brigid and Mudpuppy for finding real love, the kind I am talking about.  I am so happy to read these stories.  Keep them coming!  What changes did you make to your outlook (besides what you have already shared) to allow this into your life?  Is optimism, healthiness, and positive expectation enough?  I can try for those three   I also think it's good to have high standards for the kind of character you are attracted to, and I think I am developing that, finding myself drawn to people because of their goodness.

But anything else specific you can share would be wonderful.  I am becoming filled with hope...

[mum]

Thanks, Brigid. We will continue long distance until this school year is over...but we didn't want to miss another autumn (our favorite time of year)...and since "autumn" is non-existant where I currently live...we are all pretty excited about it!

Vunil...thanks, too...

Is optimism, healthiness, and positive expectation enough?  I can try for those three   I also think it's good to have high standards for the kind of character you are attracted to, and I think I am developing that, finding myself drawn to people because of their goodness.

I think you have it all....but one more thing: there is something about keeping a "focus" as in "it will happen" mentality that is very helpful if it is done without desperation or attachment.  I think when you keep a clear picture in your mind of what you want you will naturally be attracted to it and visa versa.  BUT, when someone's focus on a goal BECOMES the person, takes over to the point of them not being happy unless they have it....the opposite happens, and I think that is for two reasons. First, no one finds being another person's entire reason for living very attractive. Healthy people like to know that they can continue to be an individual while sharing common love....no one wants to disappear.  Second, happiness in the NOW, or present time, is the only way to truly be happy, and while a goal for future happiness is pretty essential to bringing it about, telling yourself you won't be happy UNTIL....(whatever happens) is just training for present time unhappiness....and since NOW is all there ever is, how will you know what happiness feels like?  And besides, good energy attracts more of the same....  Now I feel that in my present circumstances (not being able to live with my soon to be husband AND my children at the same time) has given me some real live practice in that second reason!!
Then there is one more thing, which may sound entirely OUT THERE (oh, like the rest doesn't?!) or may be related somehow: And that is, that if you keep it in the back of your mind (this wanting love) BUT go ahead with what you are already doing that is wonderful and focusing on that....that love has a way of sneaking up on you!  When you least expect it (at least your not leading with that expectation, anyway).
So that's my little dissertation tonight.
Vunil, I can't imagine with your wonderful brain, great sense of humor and inherent strength and love of life, that you will be waiting too long for this love you seek. You'll see....

[mudpuppy]

Hi again vunil,

What changes did you make to your outlook (besides what you have already shared) to allow this into your life?  Is optimism, healthiness, and positive expectation enough?

Not sure if this was directed to just mum or everybody, but here are my thoughts.
Optimism and all the rest are great. The kind of person attracted to a feeble, pessimistic whiner  probably has some major league issues of their own.
One change I made was to trust my instincts.
Meeting my wife was completely serendipitous. I needed some work done and met her at the office she worked in. But my instincts told me almost immediately there was something different about her. So I pursued her and caught her even though she was definitely NOT looking for a husband, having divorced a real creep a couple of years before.
When I say instincts I'm not talking about emotions OR intellect. There is story after story here of people who ignored their instincts and went with their emotions, to their regret. So I'm not sure what that instinct is; God, our conscience, our gaurdian angel? I don't know. I only know when I follow my instincts I'm fine, when I ignore them I get into trouble. Since I believe in God I tend to think it His guiding me. Others can believe as they choose.
In any event, do not be swept away by emotion nor swayed by your mind. They are both extremely untrustworthy when it comes to love. Listen to that still small voice inside that is always right.

One last thing about self sacrifice. When both people are participating each still gets to do what they love, they just get to do it guilt free.
You're not subsumed by the other person, you're freed, because each knows the other will do whatever they need to to make them happy. So instead of a constant keeping of accounts, each person is free to pursue what they love with the knowledge that they should do the same for the other. But when you're trying to please the other person it puts a check on the natural tendency for two different people to grow apart.
Its one thing to voluntarily give up something because it keeps me apart from my wife knowing she will do the same for me. Its another thing altogether to sit down with a list of things we want the other to give up and strike a bargain. The first is love, the second is a leash.
That's my two cents, and don't forget you get what you pay for.

mud

[Moira]

Hi all! Great responses here to difficult and perplexing question. I agree 100% with statements of trusting your gut( inner voice, intuition etc). Most of my past relationships involved my desperation for a relationship, being in love with the idea of love, rationalizing and denying all red flags and feedback from those who know and love me. No more! I now listen to my voice and if there is even one red flag I'm outta there! Always take into consideration my friend's observations and concerns- rarely wrong. I also joined a group of women for support with co dependence and am finding it helpful. I recently wrote out a complete list of every single positive quality I want in a man- think I had about 25, and every single thing I will not tolerate. Now I'm narrowing down to top 10 mandatory qualities in both categories. Am starting to feel confident that I can find a good man who is worthy of me( still feels a bit uncomfortable and somewhat grandiose to say this, but am starting to say and write it- starting to feel good). Moira

[Brigid]

Vunil,

What changes did you make to your outlook (besides what you have already shared) to allow this into your life?  Is optimism, healthiness, and positive expectation enough?

The changes I made were totally internal--no longer feeling desperate for a relationship, learning to love myself, feeling worthy of real love, being comfortable being alone and understanding and accepting my childhood and healing the pain left by that.  Once I felt good about myself, my outlook on life, where I wanted to go and what my goals were, aside from what any man in my life might bring to the relationship, I was ready to entertain the idea of meeting and dating new men.  As I said before, I developed a list of qualities he must have and not have and always kept those in the back of my mind when meeting someone new.  I was not looking for a relationship, but was open to having one if it came along.  I was very surprised when I realized that I was starting to have feelings for this person aside from just really enjoying his company for several months.  I agree with mum that it happens when you are not looking for or expecting it.

Mud's and mum's description of true love comes from years of experience with their partners and holds more water than where I am right now.  If I could look in a crystal ball and know that I/we would feel the same way 5, 10, and 20+ years from now as we do today, I'd be on the next plane to Vegas to get to the Elvis chapel.  But that only happens if you're Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes (how long does anyone give that relationship?) and everyone else should take their time, let the relationship grow and prosper (or not), and be mindful of possible red flags popping up along the way.  Trust your instincts, listen to your friends and family, observe how he treats others, and don't compromise on those qualities that are important to you.  I don't think there is any more magic to it than that.

Brigid 

[write]

the best love of all- is loving yourself and being committed to find what works in life for you.

I know that seems selfish, after being indoctrinated by other powerful manipulative voices, not least the whole protestant work ethic, but I am inspired by the words of Edwin Markham, a great if often unremembered American.

There is a destiny that makes us brothers; None goes his way alone; All that we send into the lives of others Comes back into our own.

[write]

and this- most wonderful of quotes: again Edwin Markham

By a divine paradox, wherever there is one slave there are two. So in the wonderful reciprocities of being, we can never reach the higher levels until all our fellows ascend with us.

I have long held out that even dealing with the most abusive people it is important to retain our humanity and not stoop to a destructive competetive level.

I spent a happy hour this evening with ex n-h....I am no expert but I feel like we made a breakthrough in not turning our failed mariage into a battleground, but more than that- in realising this relationship doesn't work, let's try to create one that does.