Deciding on divorce (long)

[vunil]

Just a late night musing--  I wonder if something in christianity (which is the religion I practice, although I'll admit to being very open to all religions and having dabbled in many) encourages sacrifice even in cases where it is not necessary or even is unduly masochistic?   Sacrifice certainly seems like a better position to take in many cases than others (e.g., dominant abuse!) and as a message, the idea of giving to others does provide a window into what spirituality is supposed to be, but, I dunno, there is something in the whole thing that also could lead to an abandonment of responsibility to (and understanding of) self.  Not that I think it's on purpose or a flaw or anything like that; it's just that every message has its nuances, and I've noticed in myself over the years and in other christians that one potentially harmful nuance is that sacrifice is preferable to standing up for self in all cases.

Just a musing.  I hope it doesn't offend anyone. I do go to Christian church (although as you may be able to tell I'm not a fundamentalist by any means and would gladly go to other types of religious services, too.  I went to a shabbat service I liked, and would go there;  it's just that I grew up christian and like the comfort of what I'm used to.  I also meditate and do yoga and believe in a lot of eastern religious tenets, too.  So true believers may just find me a religious harlot and not worth worrying about!).  For what it's worth I think every religion has its potentially harmful nuance (just different ones).

I guess an interesting thing for those of us who have been victimized and voiceless to ponder is the extent to which we can be humble as well as strong, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us while also demanding a little of the same back from then.  Now and again

[Portia]

You sound good Longtire.

How is it going with your D? Has she settled into having a room at your house now? 
I'm going to repeat what you said earlier...

I agreed because I wanted to be able to tell my daughter that I had tried EVERYTHING.

I still don’t understand. Maybe it’s me, I don’t have children, but can you tell me why? Why would you sort of want to be accountable to your daughter about your marriage?

I ask because I’ve seen two divorces with my parents and to be honest, I didn’t want to be involved. Do you see what I mean? I’m thinking about your D here, or trying to.

Take it easy with the reading Long. Overloading is easy.

[Brigid]

Hey Portia,
I don't want to answer for longtire, but I do understand his point.  I also think it might be harder to understand for someone who has not been a parent.  I, too, felt it was very necessary for my children to see that I had given every effort possible to keep our family together.  I think that response is two-sided.  One side says that when I took my vows before God, I meant them and would not easily walk away from them.  That I placed a very high priority on the happiness of the family, not just on myself.  That even when faced with all the truths of my exh's lies and deception, I was willing to try to work through it for the sake of the family.  The other side is that I felt I needed to set an example of the value and importance of entering into marriage and that it is something that you do not easily forsake.  I would certainly have been justified in walking away as he was the one to break the marriage covenant, but the kids needed to see how deeply I felt the commitment. 

Most of my motivation for trying to stay together was to save them the pain of having their family come apart and all that goes along with that.  I still worry about the long-term effects of divorce on them, but they are mostly adults now and I need to worry more about me now and just support them as best I can. 

I'm not saying that any of this is necessarily healthy or right, but if you are a parent who takes that job seriously, it is very hard not to put the opinions, feelings, and concerns of your children before your own.  Ultimately, it is not their life, but their lives are affected by the decisions parents make at some level forever more, so it is understandable.

Sorry to intrude.

Brigid

[Sela]

Hi all:

Just throwing my opinion in here, for the sake of another view of things.  For me, I felt I made the decision to marry my children's father and when the marriage was no longer tolerable.....it was my responsibility to make the decision to end it.  I did not want my kids to feel the weight of that decision, or any guilt over it being made.

What is better for children?  Living in an unhappy home, where their parents are displaying the exact opposite of what a good, loving, reciprical relationship should be, or....living with one parent/visiting the other/or whatnot...where both parents are happier and demonstrating how to live a good, loving and  peaceful life?

Tough decision....if things aren't truly nasty/destructive/unbearable.  For me, it was easy....once I faced the reality of it.  I did offer to try marriage counselling but my ex refused.  What was left?

Once separated.....I could see that my children were indeed happier, more relaxed, opening up more and I was too and a better parent for feeling better all around.  I waited a year before divorcing.  I think that was....just in case there was some major turn around and to dispel any possibility of reuniting with my ex.  Each person will do things in their own time, I think.

But the main thing for me......was not allowing my kids to think they had any hand in the failure or disolving of the marriage.  That's not their stuff....it's mine and my ex's.

(I do understand that people wish to make it clear their desire to "save" the family and do all possible to reconcile, if that is a possibility.  But....if there is no "family" to save....we are simply in denial if we pretend there is one.   In our case, there was a marriage licence and children with a disfunctional/uncomfortable/upsetting parental relationship to tip-toe around/view/block out somehow.  They were much better off once that was gone and so were their parents).

 Brigid, I don't think one has to be a parent to understand what is and is not good for children.  I think one has only to have common sense and a desire to understand (maybe a few personal experiences.....as a child.....or even caring for the children of others..as an adult...and seeing how they react to different situations..and reading can help us learn too).  I think it was very honourable of you to do all possible to keep your family together because you probably thought it was best for everyone.  You meant your vows and did not walk away easily, which is also admirable.  I meant mine too and it was hard to admit that my ex....did not.  So the question started out as:  can one person keep vows while the other doesn't?  The sake of the family is the big question isn't it?

If there is a family, that is.  In my case....it was a mother, children, and a disruptive father.  He spent more time with his kids, once we were separated, than he ever did when we were married.  His goal in marriage seemed to be.....to be the most obnoxious hotel guest born....and he did a great job of it too!!  It's a tough call for anyone to make.  The best I can suggest is Longtire--take your time and make a decision you are comfortable with, have thought through well, and can live with.  Then, there will be no need for your daughter to agree or disagree.   It's not her decision to make.

Take care ((((all))))

Sela

[longtire]

Well, this issue seems to have brought up a lot for people. Let me see if I can better explain where I was coming from, at least.

I'll start at the end.  Today I believe that there is no way for me to "fix" or even tolerate this relationship.  It cannot be saved except by miracle(s) and I'm not asking or holding my breath for one.

At the time, more than a year ago now, I wanted to be able to look my D in the eye and telr her with no reservations on my part that I had tried my best to make things work out with her mother.  My expectation is that my D wants a home with both parents in it, with the unspoken assumption that she wanted us to get along also.  We had the first, but the second wasn't happening at all.  I wanted to do this for my D, not to make her responsibile in any way for my decisions and behavior.  If there was any chance that my W and I could work things out and provide that happy home together for my D, then I wanted to find out.  Well, I did.   I wasn't necessarily trying to keep the family together, but trying to find out whether there was any hope at all.  I was still coming out of my brain fog, so you'll just have to accept that I was NOT thinking clearly at the time, and THAT is a huge understatement.   It is clear to me now that there never was a relationship of marriage or even caring between S and I.  She used me right from the start and I didn't have the ability to discern it until recently.

As for Christianity promoting these ideas...  I don't think that was the case.  In this case it was me totally projecting all kinds of my old crap onto God/Religion as a way to avoid really delving into it and dealing with both God AND my stuff.  I was not only projecting "no divorce," but ALL kinds of other generalizations about people, the world and the universe.  Sheesh, I'm generally pretty aware but this was a real long dive off the shallow end for me.  I absolutely had all the wrong ideas.  It seems likely to me that a lot of other people might be doing the same projecting onto God/Religion for much the same reasons.  The good news is that I realized that God has been trying to tell me that he didn't support this marriage for a very long time by not answering any of my prayers to "fix' it.  Now that I know what to (not) listen for, I'll be much more aware from now on.

One of the things that I was projecting was that I was somehow not worthy or good enough to deserve (positive) attention, caring, blessings, happiness, etc.  What crap!  That was all my parents' messages.  It was never me!  That is why I was so confused growing up, because their messages didn't fit with what I knew inherently.  For the first time in my life, I really believe that I deserve good things, and that I will have all those good things.  I don't have to be perfect or struggle mightily just to "earn" a few crumbs.  Still, old habits die hard and it will take some time to really get used to this new way of seeing myself.

I've been down some tonight.  I had made tentative plans to have supper with my D tonight, but she hasn't been returning my calls the last coupld of days.  There is still a part of my old brain that jumps in with all types of terrible scenarios, but I am fighting it by reminding myself that none of those things has ever actually happened and that I trust my D and my relationship with her.  In the current situation, the thing that comes up most often is that her mother is subtly feeding her "plausibly deniable" criticism of me.  I'll remind myself of the trust as many times as I need to.  If I'm still here and trying then I'm obviously more stubborn than that old part of my mind. 

[vunil]

Longtire, I think you are very brave.  Part of taking this step was facing nights like this and I think you are handling all of it with grace and understanding and lots of self-insight.  I can confirm that you deserve the best   Keep believing that.  I'm sorry anyone led to believe otherwise.

[bunny]

longtire,

Not too long from now, your daughter will move out so you can't sacrifice everything to her. She'll be gone, living her own life. Your job is to role model how an adult makes decisions and creates a decent life without being a bastard about it. You're fulfilling that role model. You are a grown man, someone who is strong and taking care of himself, in her eyes. She probably takes that for granted and will come to you when her generous nature trumps the selfish nature. When I was her age, the last person I gave a thought to was my father!I seriously doubt your wife can make inroads into the foundation that's already there.

bunny

[Portia]

Hi Longtire,

I lived with my step-father and mother from a young age and saw my father every weekend.

My mother was always anti my father. Subtly, she let me know ‘everything’ was my father’s fault.

I didn’t buy this crap, even at a young age. Say age 7. I pretended to go along with it (to appease mummy and remain loved myself), but I didn’t believe her. Why should I? I had my own brain and my own opinions of my father. As far as I could see, he wasn’t the awful man she made him out to be! He was my ‘real Dad’ and that’s all that mattered to me. You can’t decide not to have a Dad, so you accept your Dad.

And what mattered most of all, even later at age 16, was how he treated me, right then, in the present. What had happened in the past between him and my mother, or him and me, didn’t matter. At 16 the present is most important. At 16 the future and the world await us and we’re preparing to make our mark. We’re not thinking about our parents, we want them to be there to support us when we need them. If we’re healthy, we take it for granted that they don’t need us.

Teenagers are pretty selfish! They need to be because otherwise life would simply be too frightening at that age. Your daughter will come to you as soon as she needs you Longtire.


PS. Hi Brigid and Sela. Thanks for your posts. I sometimes wonder too about not having my own children and being able to empathise with parents. But I sure can empathise with children. Which is kind of why I don’t have any. I’m only just about capable now of being a parent and even then, it’s the most exhausting, demanding, 24/7 job there is. Okay it has the ultimate rewards too. But wow, the responsibility, the commitment necessary, the unselfishness, the financial costs! I guess it helps that I’m fairly commitment-phobic? Anyway, it’s academic now, there’s no way I could be age 60 and have a 17 year old offspring, not as a first child. It wouldn’t be fair, on either of us! Not forgetting…..I might have to have sex to get pregnant!  :DRuns away….

[Brigid]

Hi Portia,

I don't think you have to be a parent to empathize with the struggles of raising children as long as you have some memory of your own growing up years.  What I do think is hard to imagine, is the lengths to which you will go to protect and defend your child.  I certainly never thought I was capable of being that protective of another human being while I was still childless.  Obviously, there are parents on either end of the spectrum who either don't give a rat's behind about their kids, or those who will do anything to save their child--including things which are not in their best interest.  It is sometimes hard to find the right balance and step in when necessary and step out when necessary.  Everyone will screw up now and then.

I might have to have sex to get pregnant

Not necessarily, but that is kind of the fun part of the whole equation. 

Brigid

[Mati]

longtire

I thought this would be of interest to you from Richard 21CP 'Tears and Healing'


"Marriage is a mutual promise. When one spouse completely fails in keeping the vows, it puts the other in an impossible position. Even the Catholic Church, bastion of conservative thought, acknowledges that when spousal behavior is absent, so is the marriage. Not everyone will support this approach, but loving people will. We each need to find some people like that – people who can support our choices to make changes and try to build a loving and love-filled life. For those of you who are Christian, remember, He never asked you to be perfect; he knew we could not be. He only asked that you believe.]
Staying to be “Faithful”

We of course feel a sense of obligation to our spouses, and to those with whom we have long-term intimate relationships without marriage. Our wedding vows promise to love until death do we part. Our culture encourages us to think of marriage as something that can be lifelong; that should be lifelong.

There are two problems with this fairy tale approach to marriage, and both of them work to lock us in even when the marriage is literally tearing us apart:

The first problem with these ideas is that they don’t take into account that marriage must be a two-way process. The idea that each partner is committed to love and care for the other no matter what is just not realistic. Some mountains are just too high to climb. We are human beings, and we have a right to depend on some commitment to us, just as our partners have that right.

We cannot force ourselves to continue on in a relationship in which we suffer trying to meet our partners’ seemingly endless needs, yet our partners are unable or unwilling to help us meet ours. A relationship cannot work if it becomes predominantly a one-way process.

The second problem this causes is that we fail to realize that our spouses must be first and foremost responsible for themselves. We allow ourselves to be trapped in the idea that we must be responsible for what our spouses do and what might happen to them. The truth is that we can never be responsible for another adult, nor should we try to be.

Our spouses must own their problems. They must bear the consequences of their own choices. They must suffer the pain of their own illnesses. This is not our burden to bear. I stayed with my wife through a time where I knew full well that I hated the relationship, needed more for myself, and saw no hope. Yet I thought she would die if I left her, and that her death would be my responsibility.

Ultimately, she almost did die even though I stayed with her. But it was never my burden to keep her alive. It was not my job to enable her to live with her pain and her illness even while she avoided trying to heal. I sickened myself and her by taking that on.

We must allow our spouses to own their own lives, their own behaviors, and the consequences of those."

 

[Moira]

Hi Mati! Good post! A few comments on ye old institution! I was raised Catholic- " recovered" nicely!! Before I continue, let me say I in no way am slamming the church- I think people have the right to pursue whatever faith/beliefs work for them. I ended a marriage at a very young age because of incompatability and I didn't want to be a parent at 19. The church required me to then pay $2000.00 to Rome- no less! and the pope signed the anulment paper- to " erase" my marriage from the proverbial books! Also still belief that divorce is wrong and God doesn't exactly approve! Lots of priests still reinforce that once you've made your bed- so to speak!- you lie in it. There are allegedly heavenly rewards for " sacrificing" yourself in a bad marriage- the ever popular martyr concept. I'll close by saying also that the concept of romantic love is relatively new- 17th century. And I don't believe ANY relationship is ever " 50/50". I also don't believe in " unconditional" love- unless we're talking children and animals!. All adult love and other relationships have conditions. Otherwise all of us here would be total doormats and " unconditionally" accept all abuse and betrayal. I can't sacrifice myself by " unconditionally" loving someone who is a pathological liar, steals, is a substance abuser, an adulterer etc.

[longtire]

Mati, thanks for the reminder.  I've read and reviewed "Tears and Healing" several times over the last several months and it has been a real help.  I read this book before I even (consciously) realized that my wife had BoPD!

I'm hanging in there for my daughter.  It hurts sometimes, but that is nothing new to being a parent.  I'll be there for her when she needs me.  In the meantime, I'll be living my life and showing her how a healthy adult makes decisions and lives their life with joy.

I got an EMail from my wife after about  six weeks without.  She is asking about exchanging mail and, GASP!, each of us getting more money!    The joint account has been building a surplus, so I'll probably go along with it at this point.  I'm working to get myself a backup credit card, and once that is done will have my checks deposited into my own account and only transfer funds to the "joint" account to cover bills, etc.  I expect that I'll tell her that I want the divorce and would like to save money by working most of it out between us rather than giving it to the lawyers.  I say expect because of my ping pong ball experiences in the past, but I am not feeling like that will be as much of a problem since I have worked through a lot of stuff since then.  I'll see if we can work things out between us, but won't be the least bit shocked if that opens the floodgates of projection.  Who knows, maybe she is just waiting for me to say I want a divorce so that I'm the "bad guy" and she can claim victim status while letting loose on me.  I'm not exactly looking forward to that, but AM looking forward to being legally single again.

Oh, and Portia, I also agree that having been a child yourself, you can understand and empathize with parents. I hope that in talking with my daughter that she now sees how much happier I am and I can "blame" her mother for that!  Seriously, one of the things that I will not do is badmouth her mother.  It is important to me that my daughter feel like she has full access to her mother to the extent she wants it without feeling like I make that realtionship more difficult.