Could it be me?

[Mati]

This last year or two have been really difficult. First of all, I came out of the fog to see that my H had been psychologically abusing and deceiving me for 23 years, and then, just as bad, I started to look around my family and see that there are so many of them with n traits. First I saw that one of my sons is most likely an n, then I see my D is also n as well as having other personaility disorders. My father was most problably n and my ex m-i-l who caused me endless trouble. There is also my mother who may be n too. Or maybe something else. She has always been cold and hard towards me and has always been critical and never expressed any affection. It is such a shock to the system. And I keep having the thought come into my mind that might it be me, looking to blame others and they are OK but I am not?

Well I am coming out of my fog because I have put myself into therapy. Maybe that shows that it is not me. And I have been working very hard to improve relationships in the family since I left nH. But they have not been improving. My son and daughter have been piling a load of **** on me just at the time when I needed support from them. They have chosen this time to bring up a pile of childhood  issues and I have been apologising all over the place for being a useless mother. I know they are justified in some of the things they say but some of it seems to me to be over the top and intented to hurt me. I cannot understand their lack of epathy that someone who is trying to recover from a marriage breakdown is not in the right state to deal with this. And then I start to worry that I am not accepting responsibility.

I have been endlessly patient with them both (son and daghter) and have said all of the time that I am willing to deal with their complaints about me and to say sorry and put things right. With my son, I seem to be in this permanent guilty state which he uses to fleece me of the little money I have. I know that I should stand up more and not give in but I do not feel very strong at present. I just seem to be appeasing them all of the time. Now I have realised what my son is doing, I am starting to have boudaries and will not so easily part with my money when he gets himself into scrapes. He has more income than me but last weekend when he had promised to take his brother to the cinema for his birthday, he said that he had missed a direct debit in the bank and had a pile of charges and could not take his brother to the cinema now so rahter than non n son being disappointed I ended up taking them both and speding a lot of money. I realise now that I should have only taken the brother and left the other one at home to accept the results of his irresponsibility. Well I live and learn. Now I must deal with my daughter who is also take take take. All of the ones in the family that I am looking at, have the same traits of feeling entitled, feeling victimised, and refusing to let me have issues with them whereas they feel entitled to throw things at me all of the time. I am sick at the moment with ME so bad that I am generally in bed, and I also have a swollen knee, carpel tunel syndrome and chronic anal fissures.  Not that these members of my family notice. They do not believe that I have ME for a start. I get no help or visits from them.

Well I am learning and this board is helping a lot, having others to bounce things off to test my thinking. It does not take much for me to doubt and blame myself.

[Brigid]

Mati,
I'm sorry for all that is going on now.  I'm sorry, but what is ME (I'm sure you've explained before, but my memory isn't what it used to be  )?

And I keep having the thought come into my mind that might it be me, looking to blame others and they are OK but I am not?

I get this.  As the light goes on to the craziness we have lived with throughout most of our lives, we do begin to wonder how we could have been surrounded by it and not seen it.  Then we start to think that there couldn't be that many crazy people in one person's life and it must be us rather than them.  But when I examine myself and my values, morality, character, empathy for others. . . I know it was them.

Well I am coming out of my fog because I have put myself into therapy.

Great!!  This is the best thing you could do right now.  You need a professional to look at the situation from the outside and help you get past the blaming of yourself and healing all those deep internal injuries.

Now I have realised what my son is doing, I am starting to have boudaries and will not so easily part with my money when he gets himself into scrapes.

Also great.  Hopefully your therapist can help you get better with this.  Once we have taken responsibility for a transgression, sincerely apologized for it and made restitution if necessary, it should be forgiven.  Your children will continue to be very miserable people if they do not move past this stuff, forgive you and find a way to have a happy life rather than blaming you for their misery.  They obviously need therapy too.

It does not take much for me to doubt and blame myself.

I get this too.  It comes with the territory of recovering from all the trauma from the nh's--discovery of the lies, deceit, hiding who they are, realizing they never really loved us--and on and on it goes.  I don't trust my ability to make decisions these days, easily get stuck on things about which I am not knowledgeable or comfortable, worry constantly about how the kids will be affected, worry about my future, and lack the energy to make necessary changes.  Things are starting to get better for me, and as my attitude improves, my energy increases, decision-making gets easier and my future looks more positive.  Its amazing the spiraling affect these varying moods can have. 

I hope you can start to feel better physically so you can get stronger emotionally.  Continued blessings as you work through the issues with your children, but I hope you will spend more time concentrating on you right now.  Continuing to worry about how they relate to you now is probably only going to keep all of you in the unhealthy relationship you now share.  The best thing you can do is to become a positive role model for them with the hope that they will follow your lead and get some help.  Become a strong, healthy parent who is capable and unwilling to be a doormat.  But in the end you must become healthy for your own sake and they will make their own decisions.

Hugs,

Brigid

[bunny]

Mati,

With more therapy I bet you will get even better at limit setting. For instance, you will tell your kids that the apologies are over. You've apologized as much as you feel is necessary and now they can take it or leave it. At some point, children are responsible for their own life course and can't blame their parent anymore. I still blame my mom for lots of things but I don't throw it in her face, because her time for fixing me is long over. And I don't expect her to apologize either. Just keep up the therapy and I think a lot of positive things will happen. It takes time so give yourself a break.

bunny

[mudpuppy]

Hi Mati,

All these Ns and their enmeshed hangers on form a parasitic system. They're sucking the life out of each other, and as long as you were there, they were sucking the life out of you.
When you decided to leave the system and made even feeble attempts at preventing the parasitism you threatened their system. And your leaving the system also forces them to confront the way they are, something they know deep down is wrong but are quite busy denying.
This makes you the scapegoat. Even the slightest rebellion is used as a convenient excuse to try and hammer you back down to the group norm.
When you are enmeshed in a group of stinkbugs like that, you become the group enemy when you leave; you're an apostate to them.
This is handy for measuring your progress.
If they are demonizing and slandering you, you are doing the right thing.
If they are satisfied with you and giving you small rewards you are slipping back into their sick world.

And I have been working very hard to improve relationships in the family since I left nH. But they have not been improving.

If the people you are hoping to improve relations with are truly N you probably won't see any improvement. They take your overtures of responsibility as an opportunity to further enmesh you in their abuse. They see it as a weakness to pounce on.


So in answer to your original question; sure it could be you. If you want respect and honesty and decency and some giving not just taking, then you bet its all your fault, because they don't have any of that to give.
Hope you find some people that do. Maybe you could concentrate on your non N son and see if he is redeemable.
Sorry you've had such a tough time of it.
(((((((((((((mati)))))))))))))))

mudpup

[missm]

Therapy is a great start, and it takes a lot of courage to make the decision to enter it. 

When you grow up with one or more nparents, it is inevitable that you absorb some of their world views.  I know that my nmother told me things like, when someone was meant to me, it was because there was something "deficient" about me that particularly annoyed them.   Or that I was "exceptional" and they were jealous.  This is a very narcissistic viewpoint, and I absorbed it.  It took many years to realize that I was not exceptional or deficient, I was just human. 

The most important thing we learn in recovery is to draw clear boundaries.  Not giving your kids money doens't mean you don't love them, it just means you're not going to give them money.  You can't compensate for any mistakes you made by allowing them to take advantage of you.  I think the most loving thing a parent can do is have clear boundaries.

I've found that as I've come to re-establish my boundaries (this is an ongoing process), I have been able to see the ways in which I've carried on the narcissistic legacy.  But this does not fill me with crippling guilt or remorse, it just helps me to see how very human I am, and so are the people I care about.  The more compassion I have for myself, the easier it is to take responsibility for my actions, and adjust them when necessary.

Have courage, we all struggle with these things.  You've taken a very important first step.  You might also benefit from reading some books on N - my favorite is The Drama of the Gifted Child, by Alice Miller.

[longtire]

Mati, I agree with what the others have said so far.  You are doing all the right things.  It is tough at first, but as you keep doing them, they turn into habits.  Setting up those habits and chonging the old habits is hard work.  I found that it was most important to take extra care of myself during that time.  I didn't have the stamina or endurance that I was used to from before.  Once my habits started changing, though, I ended up with more energy than I had before I started.  Hang in there and do what you need to take care of yourself during this difficult time.  Maintain your rest and eat healthy.  Get exercise if you can, even if you have to force yourself (the case for me ).

It is not just N that sow the seeds of doubt in children.  My family were not N, but closer to Avoidant.  I picked up many of these passive traits, as well as feeling worthless since nobody ever bothered to say that I had worth or that they were glad I was there.  I know how hard it is to change this programming.  I can't imagine how hard it is for children of N's who actively denigrate their children.

Once again, you are doing all the right things.  Making the changes does not feel good.  It is very hard work.  But, it really does pay off in the end.  Every time you make a change it gets easier the next time.  There are backslides and spirals to learn from, but the progress still happens.

((((((((((Mati))))))))))

[seeker]

Brigid said.....................             

" I get this.  As the light goes on to the craziness we have lived with throughout most of our lives, we do begin to wonder how we could have been surrounded by it and not seen it.  Then we start to think that there couldn't be that many crazy people in one person's life and it must be us rather than them.  But when I examine myself and my values, morality, character, empathy for others. . . I know it was them."

I've been reading from this board for a while now, but have never responded.  Don't know how to navigate it yet, but I'll learn.  I can so relate to what you said Brigid.  Thank you for your words.

[Sela]

Well Mati, the craziness keeps spinning, doesn't it?

Could it be you?

I doubt it.  You blame yourself far too easily to be N.  N's don't admit even minor fault.  They are always right (according to them) and always blame you for problems.

Natural consequences.  It's a parenting technique.

Your son makes a promise and then doesn't keep it.  The natural consequence to that is that he has to deal with the person he made the promise to, not you.  You're a loving parent.  Maybe, if something similar happens again, be loving, be understanding, be pleasant, and let the natural consequences of his behaviour take effect.  If he tries to hit you up to bail him out.....be busy, be broke, be sorry, be tired, and let him live with his choices.  This is part of loving too.  It might not seem loving but unless it's a life or death situation....letting them ...allowing them to deal with their own problems/actions/decisions helps them to mature, to grow and to possibly choose better the next time.

They may be treating you as the most handy scapegoat around.    Could you picture yourself as a gazzelle instead?  Leap and bound away from the blame that they are trying to pin on you?  Maybe say:  "I'm trying to heal from a broken marriage and I'm having some health trouble right now.  Now is not the best time to discuss this." and leave it at that.  If they do not respect your boundary, end the conversation.  You are these lad's mother and they won't die by respecting your request.

Sorry this is so hard Mati.  Please don't be too hard on you.  You've done a lot of things right.  Maybe it would help to make a list?  "Some of the things I've done right".  I don't believe for a minute that you haven't.

((((((((((Mati))))))))

Sela

[Sela]

PS:

Hi Seeker.  Welcome.

  Sela

[Mati]

Hello everyone

and thankyou for all of the interesting replies

Brigid

ME is Chrionic Fatigue Syndrome which is not a very good name for it as it is not about fatigue which can be relieved by a good night's sleep.

when I examine myself and my values, morality, character, empathy for others. . . I know it was them.

Yes a good remedy. It is tiring to have to keep having to go through this though instead of having that instant recognition that it is them not us. I expect that will improve with time though.

I hope you can start to feel better physically so you can get stronger emotionally.  Continued blessings as you work through the issues with your children, but I hope you will spend more time concentrating on you right now.  Continuing to worry about how they relate to you now is probably only going to keep all of you in the unhealthy relationship you now share.  The best thing you can do is to become a positive role model for them with the hope that they will follow your lead and get some help.  Become a strong, healthy parent who is capable and unwilling to be a doormat.  But in the end you must become healthy for your own sake and they will make their own decisions.

Thanks Brigid (((())))) I have been worrying too much and my health has gone downhill, but I have made an effort and stopped trying to improve my relationship with them and am just letting things lie. Even one apology (and I have given many) was one more than I ever got from my mother yet I have forgiven her and moved on from my childhood. They will just have to sort themselves out themselves and I am going to put all of my energy into myself. I have got over the grief of not having the close relatioship with them that i would like and look to friends now to fulfill that need.

bunny

For instance, you will tell your kids that the apologies are over. You've apologized as much as you feel is necessary and now they can take it or leave it. At some point, children are responsible for their own life course and can't blame their parent anymore. I still blame my mom for lots of things but I don't throw it in her face, because her time for fixing me is long over. And I don't expect her to apologize either. Just keep up the therapy and I think a lot of positive things will happen. It takes time so give yourself a break.

Thanks for that. It is exactly what i need to say.

mudpuppy

When you decided to leave the system and made even feeble attempts at preventing the parasitism you threatened their system. And your leaving the system also forces them to confront the way they are, something they know deep down is wrong but are quite busy denying.
This makes you the scapegoat. Even the slightest rebellion is used as a convenient excuse to try and hammer you back down to the group norm.
When you are enmeshed in a group of stinkbugs like that, you become the group enemy when you leave; you're an apostate to them.
This is handy for measuring your progress.
If they are demonizing and slandering you, you are doing the right thing.
If they are satisfied with you and giving you small rewards you are slipping back into their sick world.

Yes this is what is happening.

If the people you are hoping to improve relations with are truly N you probably won't see any improvement. They take your overtures of responsibility as an opportunity to further enmesh you in their abuse. They see it as a weakness to pounce on.


So in answer to your original question; sure it could be you. If you want respect and honesty and decency and some giving not just taking, then you bet its all your fault, because they don't have any of that to give.
Hope you find some people that do. Maybe you could concentrate on your non N son and see if he is redeemable

Wow that is so right. I am taking your advice and trying to see if I can connect with the non n son. It is not easy as the family system keeps us apart with the n's being go betweens and his age (late teens) has not helped. Thanks for the hug, mud.

missm

You've taken a very important first step.  You might also benefit from reading some books on N - my favorite is The Drama of the Gifted Child, by Alice Miller

Thanks for that. The book is on my reading list.

longtire

Hang in there and do what you need to take care of yourself during this difficult time.  Maintain your rest and eat healthy.  Get exercise if you can, even if you have to force yourself (the case for me ).Once again, you are doing all the right things.  Making the changes does not feel good.  It is very hard work.  But, it really does pay off in the end.  Every time you make a change it gets easier the next time.  There are backslides and spirals to learn from, but the progress still happens.

Thanks for that. When I look back I can see a great deal of progress but in the middle of it it looks slow.

Sela

Thanks for that great advice. The picture of a gazelle is a good one. And the idea of a list is a good.

Many thinks for all of the excellent advice here. There has been much for me to think about and it will all help a great deal. How I wish I had you guys a while ago when I was still in the mire and not knowing how to get out. I love you all.

Mati

[Moira]

Hi all1 Is anyone familiar with " inverted narcissism"? Concept- I think, this is off the top of my head from readings I"ve done- of codependents reflecting and mirroring N behaviour. doesn't mean we're Ns at all but living with their insane behaviour makes you nuts. I know now reflecting on my own behaviour while with my N , I'm still shocked I could be capable of some of my responses. for the first time in my life I was intentionally cruel and verbally abusive, I shoved him and threw things at him in the heat of arguements, I facilitated his lies and lied to myself and friends about what was going on. I became hypervigilant, overly sensitve to any little thing, was incredibly righteous, validated the whole " I was his soul mate and he was the love of my life" crap- etc etc. I do realize my responses are not unusual for survivors, but it doesn't make it any easier for me at this time to wrap my mind around- I kicked my N to the curb 6 weeks ago. Today I had strong impulses to buy him a birthday cake- birthday this weekend- because I was feeling sorry for him as he's now in a rehab centre- " oh, poor B, he's all alone on his birthday!". The only thing that slapped me in the face and evaporated this codependent fantasy was this a.m. when I came to work, there was a message from him- typical he'd call me at work instead of at home- better chance of someone else listening to my message as I share my office with a partner. He said" In case you are going to come out and see me on my birthday, forget it. And the gift I KNOW know you'll send me will be returned unopened...by the way, I've INVITED so and so to TAKE me out this weekend". Hilarious!! I'm back on the ground and in my right mind!!

[Ariel]

Mati,

We are walking the same path... I have fibromyalgia (same as ME + pain & sleep disorder component) from the stress of living a lifetime of abuse.  My ex is so N he'd probably get diagnosed with NPD in a heartbeat - if he ever got therapy, which he never will since he is the only person in the world that is perfect, lol.   He divorced me - it was final a bit shy of 20 years in hell4me.  He couldn't deal with a broken wife that couldn't make a bundle of $$ so he wouldn't have to spend any of HIS on anyone else... and I'd started standing up to him about the porn, sexual abuse, etc.

Yeah, it runs in the family bigtime... ex-N's mother, grandmother, sister... hopefully not DS, but there is a lot of N there at 19, hopefully it is a passing thing.

DS was 16 before I even BEGAN to realise we were emotionally abused.  Now out of the FOG I am fully aware, and like you, feel terrible guilt that I was a useless mother.  Like you, I have become abuse is all I have known from FOO as well.  Have you read Susan Foward's books, Emotional Blackmail, How The People In Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate You, and Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life??  They have been very helpful to me.

The exhaustion from your ME is terrible to deal with.  I find breaking up my schedule into 5-15 minute routines helps tremendously... as does lowering your expectations of yourself and giving yourself permission not to be perfect lol.  I recommend http://www.flylady.net for help!

Take care of yourself, and don't let your family manipulate your feelings!