n son

[Mati]

Hi

I have not been posting. Been in bed mostly with ME relapse, but I did manage to get my assignment from the course I am doing finished.

I have been increasingly thinking that my son is n like his father. It has become more clear to me recently since I have offered to find another house for him and his brother (19 & 23) to join me since having to leave my home due to their fathers' increasing abuse. There are a lot of tensions between them and my sons are fed up with living with him. They are planning on moving out of the area and their financial position is not good but my concern is mainly the youngest one who is immature and a special needs person. He looks severely depressed.

My son said that he did not want to live with me as he has issues. I pointed out that he does not have issues as you have issues with someone who will not let you express their feelings and who will not sit down with you and talk the feelings out and say sorry. I have listened many times to the things he holds against me and have said sorry many times and have been trying to make things right and have been very patient with him supporting and encouraging him during the time of the breakdown of my marriage. He has not supported me at all and does not even visit even though he knows i am sick and on my own.

I said to him that rather than issues he has bitterness and unforgiveness and that if I have tried to deflect things by excuse myself that I acted as I did due to the relationship problems and the high stress I was in,   I was sorry I did not mean to do this but perhaps I felt deep down that it was unfair having to deal with this at the moment as it felt like being kicked in the teeth when I was down.  But I said that I loved him and wanted more than anything to put things right and be there for him.

But now when I think I can see that he always  feels very entitled. There was an incident a while ago concerning my grand-daughter who had to live with us as her mother is mentally ill. One one occasion I had a phone call from her  asking me to go and my son said I hope you are not bringing *** back with you. I said no I was not but when I got there my daughter was psycholtic and the child was traumatised so I brought her home. I have tried to explain but he keeps throwing this in my face saying that he cannot trust me and I broke a promise. He holds a grudge against my grand-daughter too for the disruption she caused.

A lot of people take a dislike to him, and I see that he feels he deserves things and has a lot of debt. It has been quite a trauma to see him in this way as all I want is to have a close relationship with him and his brother and I have been knocking myself out for them and spending loads of money that I cannot afford to help them.

I would say that he is generally very ungrateful and I can see him becoming more and more like his father in seeing himself as the victim in everything.

I have finally got around to challenging him after this last episode where he spoke to me with much callousness about the proposition I put to him. He is a fool as he wants to go to unviersity and has so much debt already that he would be much better living with me with his brother. But if he feels that he wants to get away from us both then I respect that and accept it.

Is he showing signs of narcissism do you think? At least then I will know how to deal with him and the futility of trying to put things right. He already has me walking on egg shells.

Mati

[Brigid]

Mati,
I'm sorry for all you are having to deal with right now.  I'm sure you are feeling very overwhelmed.

I don't know if your son is n.  I do know that most young adults are n by definition and feel that the world revolves around them.  My T and I have talked about this because I have a son in this age category too.  When I observe him being demanding, entitled, uncaring of the feelings of others, I start to panic that he is following in his father's footsteps.  I have talked to him about it, and I have seen improvement in his behavior as a result.  My T has explained that kids this age behave this way as they are breaking away from the family and learning to be independent.  They don't know how to do it in a nice way so they just treat us like crap at times.

That being said, I think from things you have said previously, that your son is pushing the envelope.  If I were you, I would stop trying to take care of him, I absolutely wouldn't give him any more money and move without him.  He is at a point where he needs to step up and take responsibility for his own behavior and life.  The worst thing you can do, imo, is to enable this behavior any further.  It is hurting you more and more and you don't need that right now.  You need to concentrate on you now and find a way to start healing from all the abuse that has been inflicted.  Let your son come to you and only on your terms.  I know it is easier said than done where our children are concerned, but he is an adult and you can't make him do anything he doesn't want to do or force him to behave respectfully.  All you can do is refuse to be party to it. 

The best thing for him (and you) would be therapy right now, but I'm guessing he wouldn't be willing and probably couldn't afford it.  If he does want to go back to school, I would make him find the money and show the effort.  Down the line if it appears that he is being serious, you could offer some help if his attitude has improved.

It is so difficult to stand by and watch our children make mistakes.  But this is out of your control.  With any luck, he will have a lightbulb moment and realize that he needs to straighten out his life.  If his father wants to continue to enable him, that is also out of your control.  You need to concentrate on what is within your control and let go of the rest.  I need to follow my own advice.

Hugs and blessings,

Brigid

[Sela]

Dear Mati:

I'm so glad to see you posting for support and I have to ditto what Brigid said.  I don't have a lot to add but I just want you to know that I am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers and hoping that you will continue to look after you.

You have been through so much and I am so proud of you for getting your assignment done, even when you were feeling so low.  Please do not lose hope. One of my friends said to me, years ago:

"Aliens steal their brains at puberty and bring them back sometime after they become adults".

It is hard to let them take the consequences of their actions but it is important, sooo important for them to learn by this....in order to become fully adult.

Keep communicating, whatever way possible, with notes, emails, phone calls, whatever.....keeping those lines of communication open.  Ask about him and his life and what he is planning and doing and try to look for as many positives as possible and let him know that you see them.

Try not to let his seemingly lack of concern for you sink in too deeply.  You said he is immature and hopefully as he become more mature.....things will change.

((((((((((((Mati))))))))))))

Sela/GFN

[bunny]

My son said that he did not want to live with me as he has issues. I pointed out that he does not have issues as you have issues with someone who will not let you express their feelings and who will not sit down with you and talk the feelings out and say sorry. I have listened many times to the things he holds against me and have said sorry many times and have been trying to make things right and have been very patient with him supporting and encouraging him during the time of the breakdown of my marriage. He has not supported me at all and does not even visit even though he knows i am sick and on my own.

Based on my experience in couples therapy.....when he says he has issues I would agree. I might say, "I think we both have some issues and I believe people can work through issues if they want to. I'd really like to try that. Would you?" No explanations or hashing over the past. Just an offer to work on the issues.

He may be narcissistic, as he is only 19 and immature. That is almost inevitable! As the grownup, you might have to work with him on the level of adult to adolescent. It might help to read about how to deal with teenagers. There are lots of self-help books on that subject.

take care of yourself -- it sounds pretty overwhelming.

bunny

[Moira]

Hi Brigid! I'm going to sound like a hardass but bear with me. I in no way intend to make you feel worse. What a gut wrenching thing for a mother to have to deal with esp. with another N who was your ? husband. From behaviurs listed it sounds like your son is a N. Most research states that N personality is permanently formed by late adolescence. also interestingly there is more and more research on possibility of a genetic component. I certainly see alot of this working in psychiatry. Often I see at least one other N in a N client's family tree. Also he grew up entangled- no fault of yours!!- in the abuse inflicted on you by his father. I doubt- painful as this may be to hear- he is capable of really loving. He sounds like he enjoys creating chaos and hurting you deliberately. This is not normal adjusted 19 year old behaviour- especially as it sounds- correct me if I'm missing it- this is his basic personality structure and is constant. Of note he is abusive to others as you mentioned others " hate" him. That's diagnostic- sorry to sound nursey!- in my books. A question not meant to hurt and beside the love a mother has for a child no matter what that child is like- but why are you allowing him to live with you and expose yourself daily to his ongoing abuse? He's an adult, he should be responsible for himself and that includes schooling and dealing with his debts. Also interesting that Ns typically are very good at exploiting others for money, never paying back debts. His shit is HIS shit and in no way should it be yours. He has to take responsibility for himself and the outside world surely won't tolerate his abuse and there will be consequences for behaviour. When I get folks in counseling with similar stories and the child is actually an adult and not mentally ill or mentally challenged, the only real choice for family is to ask themselves 1) do I deserve my own life and right to peace and happiness? or 2) if I continue not to set limits and accept all the abuse and continue appologizing, nothing will change and I will allow him to destroy my health, finances, friends, family etc. This is a devasting choice to have to face and I don't think anyone can do it without some kind of professional help esp. to learn the tools for "tough love" and how to protect yourself. I'm not talking here with my nursing hat on- I too came from a family with Ns and just kicked my N out a month ago. So I know personally how soul destroying and hopeless this all feels. I bet your son, if( hopefully " when") out on his own will prove- as most Ns do- he is very resourceful and will easily find an endless supply of others to exploit.As for the appologizing- useless when dealing with Ns- they love your pain, self doubt, self blaming etc. Proves the problems are REALLY YOURs- nothing to do with them. How about reframing the "apology" and say" If you have issues and they are causing problems for you, take responsibility and deal with it however you see fit. I will not tolerate your turning everything back on me. I am only responsible for myself, I am NOT responsible for you". If our son ever apologizes to you doubt his sincerity- what N has empathy and apologizing is a foreign concept outside of their theatre arts and tools of manipulation. I really feel for you- don't let him destroy you. You have obviously been through and are still devestated by your other N relationship. My thoughts are with you and again, I hope I'm not coming across as unsupportive. .

[Mati]

Hi all

Many thanks for your replies. I am sorry that I did not make some things clearer in my post. First of all, it is 18 months since I walked out of the family. It is the 23 year old that I suspect of being an n which puts a different slant of it as you would think that he would have moved on from obnoxious adolescent behaviour by now. I have been looking right back through his childhood and he has displayed strange behaviour since young and it all seems to fall into a pattern now I think about it and is constant. Moira, he has always had problems with other children who have taken an instant dislike to him and have picked on him. And I can think of quite a few adults who disliked him and have become quite hostile. It did not seem to be that he was abusive, just that they reacted badly to him from the start and they actually seemed to become abusive towards him, like a supervisor in a job he had. But there again the stories he told me may have been distorted by him to make him the victim. He does not ask for money but seems to get it anyway, and has always had a way of influencing decisions over purchases in the family. He has expensive tastes and more than once I have regretted something that he encouraged me to buy. He seemed to manage to get more than his fair share though over his brother. He had musical talent and managed to get various instruments whenever he decided to try a new one.

Thanks Brigid, I am in therapy and have found it excellent in recovering from PTSD and my childhood abuse. He went to see a T but decided she was arrogant and useless (he reacts badly to doctors etc just like his father) He is organising a university course by himself and will not require funding from us for this. We are in the UK.

Thanks Sela, I am looking after myself but the worry has not helped me. I rarely see my sons. I have to go back to the house to do that and I do not want to see their father. He managed to make me the problem in the family by twisting reality and making normal parental concern and behaviour seem like control yet he has been controlling and manipulating everything.

Thanks bunny,  yes it is overwhelming but I have a self help group where I can discuss my feelings. I will look out for a good book.

Yes Moira, it does seem like he is deliberately punishing me which is hard to take when he and his brother had been treating me with the same disrespect as their father before I left. I have been blaming their father for the attitude of my sons but now I am seeing that there is more to it and my 23 year old has power and control over his younger brother as well as some control over his father though his father has encouraged this son to take on all of his responsibilites in his passive role with everything. It is quite interesting to see the play between them if it were not for the younger son who is caught up in all of it and the only normal one psychologically I think. He seems voiceless and powerless in the family. His brother has taken over his disability payments (he has Noonan Syndrome) and has special needs, and is exploiting him. This son just goes along with everything his brother tells him to do and as their father has sabotaged my relationship with him, he will not listen to me.

You are right in that he seems to enjoy my pain and self doubt. And I will stop apologising to him. It makes no difference positively and I should have seen that it is not for that purpose.

 "I will not tolerate your turning everything back on me. I am only responsible for myself, I am NOT responsible for you"."

Yes this is what I should say. He is trying to make me feel guilty and responsible. And I do suspect his apologies rare though they are. They are just enough to keep me i'sweet' 

This has been another major shock to see my son in this way but I believe that knowledge is power and now I can protect myself even more and let him face his responsibilies now without feeling that I am to blame, ( had enough of all of this from his father) and work out how I can help the youngest son now that I cannot see him as being safe under his brothers care.

Thinking that he may be n makes everything fall into place over the way he has behaved towards me. He seems to go as far as he can then when I react he backs off a little and I might get an apology but in the long run it makes no difference and it all continues whilst I become increasingly worried about putting a foot wrong with him and increasingly powerless and apologetic. He has been controlling me with the threat of breaking contact with me because he says I  keep on saying things against his father ( I make a supreme effort not to) yet he is always bringing complaints to me about him.

Anyway, since I sent him an e-mail saying that he had been callous in the way he responded to my offer of finding a home for the three of us, (but accepting his decision without any rancour) he has apologised and has responded with a long e-mail which I will answer today after I have seen my T, and I would like to bring up some points he makes here if that is ok.

Thanks again for all of the thoughts and advice. I will take more effort to take care of myself and detach more from the situation. I am in a very low state physically and am unable to look after myself now but fortunately have a carer supplied by social services. No you did not come accross as unsupportive Moira. Your post was very helpful and confirmed my thoughts.
 

 

[Sela]

Dear Mati:

I'm glad you have your T and support group.  Also the career is a good thing too eh?

Regarding visiting with your sons:

I have to go back to the house to do that and I do not want to see their father.

Could not the 23 year old, adult son visit you elsewhere?  Could he not bring his brother with him to visit you?

You don't have to visit them there do you?  Isn't this another manipulative behaviour?  And threatening to stop all contact with you....what is that?

This is cruel and selfish, I think.  (((((((Mati))))))).

I'm so sorry that this is happening.   It is so hard to rarely see them, I bet but I don't blame you for that at all.

Mati....you are not responsible for all problems.  You are not the bad one.  It's not up to you to sacrifice your serenity because your sons direct you to visit them where it's convenient/ where they want.  What would it hurt them to visit you somewhere else?

I'm glad you're emailing and keeping communication open.  Good for you!  I hope your T will help you with this too.

Sela

[Brigid]

Sela (I like the new name GFN),

 

Also the career is a good thing too eh?

Not to speak for Mati, but the term she used was carer and I believe she was refering to someone who is coming into her home to help her with her health problems right now.  I think from what she said that working would be impossible right now due to her health.  But a career would be a great thing too when she can manage it.

Mati,
I'm glad you are getting helpful therapy and learning to set boundaries with your older son.  Is your younger son interested in living with you or is he only willing to do what his brother does?  I do think it would be great if you could get him away from the influence of his brother and father, but he too is an adult and you can only encourage not force what he chooses to do.

God bless,

Brigid

[Moira]

Hi Mati! Sorry about my post yesterday I think addressed to Brigid. Glad that you found the posts from others supportive. Please take care of yourself. As codependents we all lose ourselves and our health across the board. That's what we do- we're the caretakers, the " fixers" and the negotiators. we sacrifice ourselves in every way and pay huge prices. One more tough love comment about your son- he is quite capable at age 23 of finding his own housing. Why invest your time and energy in finding him a place and I think you offered to pay for it as well. Sounds like- I'm reading between the lines- you need him out of your house. The key word here is "YOUR" house. I lived with a N neice for awhile until it almost destroyed me and alienated me from everyone in my life. I got to the point- she -typical- refused to move out- a million excuses. It's my place and she stayed there as a tenant. I have the right to ask anyone to leave MY place, and should they refuse- you have the right to use police to attend- called " keeping the peace". They attend and make sure the person leaves and you have the keys. I did this with my neice and almost came to that a month ago when I kicked my ex N to the curb. As I think I said before, I had given him 2 months to find his own place. In retrospect- hindsight is a marvellous thing eh?!- that was 2 months too long. What non codependent would have ever tolerated the first incidence of abuse without immediately getting rid of the N? I kicked him out the minute I discovered he had been taking money from my bank account to pay for his sex addiction. I have also been forced to decide to " divorce" several members of my family as I could no longer tolerate their abuse. Some have been divorced from me for long periods and others permanently. The old adage- you can't choose your relatives! Frankly, with some of my family, if I weren't related and met them socially- I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire!!!  As a matter of fact, I saw a family yesterday whose 26 yr. old N son who ilves with them and has been abusing them( physically, emotionally and financially) since he was a child. They have always catered to him, given in when trying to set limits and are scared of him. Yet they never call police and press charges for his assaults and destruction of their property- they have rationalized his behaviour as " psychotic...no normal person would ever do these things to his parents". They also were incapable and unwilling to see their part in this dynamic enabling and accepting the abuse. We discussed tough love and they were shocked and clearly stated they could never kick him out of the house, " make him" find housing and ---what a concept!- find a job and support himself- like the adult he is. Their health is severely compromised by living in this hell- heart attacks, bowel problems, not sleeping, losing tons of weight etc. final comment to them- you are chosing to allow him to kill you- literally. It's destroying the marriage and the rest of family. No one else can change this situation for you- he's not mentally ill( in the sense he may have a thought disorder making him not responsible for his behavour- impairing sense of right and wrong). They even leave their house in the dead of night, sneak away to friends's houses and are terrified he might track them down and continue the abuse- which is exactly what would happen . Imagine that- terrified to live in their own house and feeling they have to abandon their life because of living with an emotional terrorist!! I really feel for you- good to hear you have a supportive therapist. Keep us posted what happens. As for your son's email- will it be filled with more of the " usual"- everything about him is your fault, you're a bad mother, you are the one who should be supporting him.... And  as I said yesterday, N's " use the words" ( deviod of empathy and understanding of the normal emotional content of a heartfelt apology) to keep you on the hook .Funny how alot of people have a tough exterior with a heart of gold hidden inside- but we " fixers" have a sweet, overly accomodating exterior. We need to get in touch with a tougher interior. Hang in!

[Sela]

Not to speak for Mati, but the term she used was carer and I believe she was refering to someone who is coming into her home to help her with her health problems right now.  I think from what she said that working would be impossible right now due to her health.  But a career would be a great thing too when she can manage it.

Thanks Brigid.  Missed that completely and neatly placed foot in mouth.

What else is new?

  Sela

[Mati]

Hi Sela

Don't worry, it was an easy mistake, and I am probably not being very clear anyway. Am still in a bit of shock to see how my son really is after also having the wool pulled over my eyes by his father for so long.

Brigid

The youngest one is totally under his brothers control as he has disabilty benefits which the elder one is using to pay his debts. He looks like he has lost all ability to think for himself and walks around like a zombie.

Moira

Both boys are living with their father but are in the process of looking for somewhere else to live as they are getting fed up with the messy house and the chaos. Their father is doing what he did to me by arguing the toss over every single thing they say. Good for you getting rid of your n! What a horror story about that family. I think my sense of self preservation is a bit stronger then that though it is hard to say what one would do in similar circumstances.

I e-mailed my son and said that I withdrew the offer to provide a home for them both as I said that if I bailed him out after he had made a decision (to stay with and back up thier father when I had to leave my home) then I was not encouraging him to become a responsible adult. I also said that I had issues with him but surely we can sit down as adults and talk them through. No response to that but he has backed off a bit and even came to see me that evening bringing a bottle of something for us to share because he said he wanted to talk about his pending offer of a university place.

He deftly avoided talking about issues, and it seemed to me that he was doing a bit of 'sweetening' because I had stood up to him a little and he wants to keep me as a source of cash and supply. I can see clearly that there is no love in him and it is all 'take take take'. One of the things that puzzled me was that he was not interested at all in the thought of his parents getting together again even though there has been talk of it and his father wishes it. I realise that he knows that if we are apart he is far more likely to get things out of us due to the parental guilt thing. He has also taken the position of making all of the decisions for his brother and disregard my natural motherly worries over the depressed state he is in, in fact he has not commented at all about the state of his brother until I brought it up. Until then he was saying how mature his brother is becoming. I can see the traits more and more every day and I am horrified to know that I have been missing it.

Now I am wiseing up I can build boundaries and give up hope of a loving relationship with him. Also I can start to break this method of communication that has developed with my youngest son. It all goes through my nson.

I am absolutely gutted by this. I have worked so hard at building up our relationship and have been 'injured' by him repeatedly by his callousness. But at least I know what is going on with him now. You know, I bonded with him so strongly at birth, and he suffered no maternal deprivation at all. I was determined to be a perfect mother and devoted myself to him. But there were signs ther from an early age. I cannot believe that n is always caused through early disruption in the relationship with the mother. It must be genetic in some cases. There are quite a few in my family with personality disorders, then there is his father. And it has taken me 55 years to get my head sorted out and see all of this.