N mother

[dabeck]

Thanks for your encouraging words.  I really appreciate them as I am constantly concerned that I'll end up like her (see the movie "The Breakfast Club" and I remember feeling that way even then).  I would have to agree with you, the way I spoke to her last was in a way I have never spoken to anyone else, with a stern, angry voice demanding she stop hassling the people in my life that love me and stop talking down to them and badmouthing me.  She lied about making those calls to my father.  She lied about what she said.  She lied to my husband about not remembering what she said to me, and then to me said she remembered what I said to her even though she had no memory of what she said to me.  Lies, lies and more lies.  I think the more lies N's tell, the more times they tell them, they become true, real.  Revisionist history.

You would not believe the stuff she says about her own past.  Total lies.  I never call her on them because what's the point.  You were "very involved in the Civil Rights Movement" oh yeah, what did you do?  "I did a lot, stuff you will never know about" yet my father, who was married to her at the time, said he never once  knew of her going to or doing anything at all around that or her supposed protesting the Vietnam War.  My dad, on the other hand, is not a liar, not at all.  She comes up with these newly found facts when defending her point of view (her point of view politically, supporting the war, Bush and what not).  Interesting.  I ask that she and I not discuss politics as this happens regularly, this revisionist history, and I hate listening (and that is all I do, sit on my hands and listen as she talks, once I timed it, she rambled on for two straight hrs, I maybe said one sent and I am NOT exaggerating).  So, phew, thanks for your support and insight.  Have you experienced this with N's as well?  Normally, I find, people who volunteer and stuff don't brag about it.  I, myself, never talk about my volunteer stuff and my political activities unless it happens to be interesting to others (i.e, they are also interested in animal rights and other things, but if they are not, and it is known, I don't use my volunteer stuff as a way to strengthen my arguments because that negates why I do what I do).  Oh, except when I worked for the Mn Wildlife REhabilitation Ctr because I got to work with lots of very cool animals and they were good stories.    You would not believe how cute and dog-like foxes are, it was weird.   

[Carrie Anne]

Your mother sounds much like mine in that the overall theme in her relationship with you is that she is superior strictly by having the lofty title of being your MOTHER.  You are merely her child, a subordinate to her position.  No matter what she does or says to you, you are supposed to always remember that she gave you life, therefore deserves automatic and endless respect and love from you, even when she is unwilling to offer you same respect and love.  She's stuck on this and any perceived transgression or disregard  toward her position by you makes her think you are a most disrespectful and unloving daughter.  Don't know if it's just old school thinking(plus N'ism) or what but in her mind, MOTHER is always right and worthy, her feelings supercede yours.. case closed

Wishing you the best with your dicision.

[Moira]

Hi again Dabeck! Sorry, I think I've been spelling your name wrong- damn dyslexia! If you look at DSM( diagnostic psychiatric " bible") you'll see that: grandiosity, endless need for attention( negative attention works very nicely with Ns as well- ANYTHING that provides stimulation), pathological lying and confabulation, entitlement, lack of empathy, hypersensitivity to perceived slights, quick to anger, feels everyone is against them, present as " victims", chronic boredom,etc- are all hallmarks of Ns. Also diagnostic that Ns put alot of time and energy into " manufacturing" " evidence" to " prove" their points. There's also no piercing holes in obvious lies- just gears them up more to bombard you with crazy making " facts" and verbal abuse. I've found the only way to shut a N down is to either totally agree with everything they say or , even better, completely ignore them- no reaction at all. Ns cannot tolerate being ignored- that's giving them absolutely NO attention. They love it when you lose it, argue, cry, yell etc- gives them great satisfaction and they enjoy your pain. No reaction takes the wind out of their sails, immobilizes them. Usually after ridiculous accusations, verbal abuse they'll go off and sulk, pout and give you the silent treatment. Hey, that works for me!! My ex N was also a sex addict- a somatic N- and every time I caught him in phone sex( phone bills), had downloaded disgusting porn, having women correspond by email for sex, etc etc- he became enraged I would be making " crazy accusations, YOU"RE the liar etc". This despite having concrete irrefutable proof staring him in the face! I was told I didn't understand emails, how computers work, didn't understand how phone charges worked or how often someone else's charges could end up on my bill, all porn " unsolicited"- despite all emails marked " reply to B."!!! Often when I first expended alot of enery explaining and arguing, I'd finally say" Oh you must be right...I'm obviuosly ignorant and I won't accuse you of things there is absolutely no proof of...i must be paranoid". Now I've left him no avenue of attack because I'm just" confirming" he's correct. Often the reverse psychology techniques work nicely with Ns- just like they do with 4 yr. olds- the emotional age of most Ns. It is amazing what good actor Ns are- for the most part- and how everything out of their mouths is B.S. They don't remember who they've told what to and really don't care. I remember something from an article on Nism I read recently that I like- " The worst weapon Ns possess is their mouths". Says it all. Keep posting and I'm thinking of you.

[Moira]

Hi again Dabeck! Quick comment- my ex N used to claim he'd " invented" stuff, used to work in Washington " as press secretary for health ? senator( am Canadina so here it would be a minister!), lived in Burma, ran self started companies, knows Hollywood celebrities blah blah!!! My N mother's stories were equally completely untrue but a tad less outlandish! Finally- off topic, sort of!- loved your comments on foxes!!! I have always had a thing for foxes- collected all sorts of animals as a kid- still do, now don't have to hide them from mother! As a kid growing up in Ontario Canada, my family went every summer to cottages in northern Ontario- beautiful semi wilderness place- lots of wild animals. Anyway, there used to be a vixen who every summer had her litter of kits close to the highway waiting for tourists to stop and feed them!! Magic!! I'd love to have a fox now- along with hedgehog, pot bellied pig, goat, skunk( descented! had one as child). Am actually now building the proverbial ark for said animals!!! I do live inte pacific northwest temperate rainforest!!!

[mum]

Hello, Dabek, what an interesting thread.  You and your husband sound like sane, rational, compassionate and thoughtful people...just the type N's love to annoy!!

Your emails with your mom remind me of the times I forget my exN is incapable of empathy and I try to get him to hear me.  My brother tried to "reason" with my ex once. He wrote a heartfelt letter to him on my behalf. I knew it was useless as far as the ex goes, but the thought was nice and I appreciate my brother's intent so much.
Trying to reason with these people is thoroughly and completely frustrating and truly a most vivid example of an act of futility!
That your mom also drinks will multiply her "issues" twenty fold. You know the addage: "never argue with a drunk"? I think that goes for N's as well.  The other thing complicating any type of communication with N's is that they LOVE LOVE LOVE conflict.  It's attention, isn't it?  So your normal, sane attempt to mend a rift meets with absolute insanity and pain!!!

I just came back from vacation visiting my family and fiance, and in particular, my dying mother.  One day, I visited her nursing home with my two teenage children and my twenty-something niece.  Mind you my mother has 9 children, 22 grandchildren and 4 great grandchildren. So lots of people is not new for her, but in her current state, she became very confused and overwhelmed. It was sad, to say the least to see a formerly vibrant, intelligent woman, now at times barely able to communicate. Anyway, when we left, she apologized for not being "a better host" (she is still so sweet) and her nurse came in to her room. I watched them together from outside the door and realized that my mother was not comforted by the presence of her child/grandchildren as much as her regular nurse, who she would not have given the time of day to in her youth.   And it got me thinking about mothers and children.
My mother has her own path. It involved being a mother (in a big way) but it is not everything, really. This importance we seem to place on the biological connection to other people is so interesting and I wonder, if it isn't overrated. 

I am deeply connected to my children. I wonder if that will change over time. I wonder if I just got lucky.  I see friends and read posts here from people who have such a difficult time because thier parent  is basically, bad for them to be around. those people (like your mom) are so wrapped in their own pain, they cannot really function in a healthy way so they spread poison wherever they go.
Why , I wonder, is it so hard to set boundaries in mother/ child relationships ESPECIALLY?

Well, don't quite know if that rambling was particularly helpful, but perhaps you could remember that the mother you wished you had, or the relationship you would prefer to have with her, just isn't in the cards, and then see her like any other "unconnected" person to you....someone you might not want to be around.

[dabeck]

Moira and Mum:

Thanks for your helpful and empathetic replies.  I took them both to heart and I will update you on the latest and greatest chapter of this ongoing saga.  Well, I took your advice and decided to cease contact with good old mom.  I guess, according to her, "the ball was in my court" and it was my job to contact her so I just refused.  Did nothing.  Nada.  Finally, about two weeks ago she left me this rambling vmail (in which she actually sounded, uh, what's that word unfamiliar in her vocabulary, yeah, SOBER).  She began the vmail with this disclaimer:  "I said I wasn't going to call you first, but then I waited and waited for you to call then decided I hate to."  Great.  She went on to invite me to visit her in Florida, said she'd pay for my rental car but couldn't pay for my airfare (I am a full time graduate student who moved from Mpls to NYC last year so you could say money is tight).  ANYWAY, she said her roomate (she lives with her former boyfriend, or whatever he was, the bought a house together) would be on a trip for a month.  So, I would be there to keep her company.  Geez, thanks for the advance notice.

I politely emailed her back, very professionally declined her invite due to the onset of fall semester and the well-known fact that extra travel is outside the confines of my current budget.  I kept it clear and to the point.  She emailed me back, asking me common questions, for the first time asked me about what I am studying in school (I've been at it for a year now) and then went on about this and that to do with herself.  I politely replied (as I would to a co-worker) an explaination about school but did not tell her anything personal at all.  She replied more about how she was sooooo glad she paid for my undergraduate degree (I am on my second masters now so you could say that was a while ago), and that I would do the same thing for my child someday.  Then some other thing about how I failed my spanish proficiency exam (yep, I choked on the oral section, way too nervous) and how she had to pay an extra $1500 in private school courses to ensure I passed it.  Yep, I know mom, I was there, remember.  I passed the thing.  I learned my lesson:  when studying a language it is wise not to wait TWO YEARS after your finish your classes to take the exam because you might forget a thing or two.  I replied briefly that I hoped she had a good trip back to Minneapolis for the family weeding I was unable to attend and to send my regards.  So, I totally ignored her comment.  She wrote back more ramblings about how I am the first thing she thinks about when she wakes up and the last thing she thinks about before she goes to bed.  I didn't reply to that one. Crazy talk and strange.  She sent that one later at night, I would guess she'd had several drinkie treats before she hit the send button.

That was two weeks ago at least (I delete all her emails now in an effort to put her out of my mind).  She did go visit my dad in Minneapolis the other day, when she was in town.  So now I feel like avoiding talking to him because I really don't want to hear about her.  Ugh.  At least the drunken, angry phone calls and emails have ceased.  She's high on the "I love you" cycle again.  For now.

[vunil]

Good luck with this!  It is always a hard balance, figuring out how much contact to have.  I can completely relate to your mom using "facts" to bolster her position and to your trying to use reason to counteract her fictions.  I do the same thing with my parents, especially my father, over political stuff.  They both make things up.  For example, my father recently went on and on about how the problems of the country are caused by the democratic congress-- the democrat majority was pressuring Bush to make mistakes.  Well-- seems like it might matter to his argument that neither chamber of congress has a dem. majority, right?  Nope.  It is so hard not to find some evidence for the truth and send it to them, but then they always come up with some answer that is completely off-topic or beside the point-- or they ignore it altogether or deny the original statement.  It is the same with things that happen between us-- I will remind them I said/did something, they deny it, and I will find an e-mail confirming my memory and send it to them and it makes no difference.  It finally occured to me that their insanity is contagious-- why was I trying to "prove" something when they are not remotely interested in anything besides what they themselves make up?  I mean, how dumb is it for me to have to explain who has the majority in congress?  But it is infuriating.  It was one of the first lessons I learned about N behavior-- to stop expecting it to be logical and to stop treating them like I would treat regular people making regular statements. It's like being through the looking glass-- you cannot expect anything to make sense.  I still struggle with it, though.  This desire to have things make sense-- it is powerful.

[Plucky]

Good luck dabeck.
looking at your mother's 'communication', it is clearly just a series of ploys to gain control over you by pushing first this button then that one.    It is not communication in the proper sense of the word.  She just throws out a number of lines to see which one gets a bite.  So if you are her prey.....the best thing is not to bite.
Plucky

[miss piggy]

Hello,

It was one of the first lessons I learned about N behavior-- to stop expecting it to be logical and to stop treating them like I would treat regular people making regular statements. It's like being through the looking glass-- you cannot expect anything to make sense.  I still struggle with it, though.  This desire to have things make sense-- it is powerful.

It took me a very long time to realize my Ndad is just so nutty about politics.  Yes, it is a powerful thing to desire to acknowledge r-e-a-l-i-t-y.  One of the curses of being sane.  When I learned to stop reasoning with the irrational, I felt like a whole new person.  It is so great to let go of presenting exhibit after exhibit of real life to crazy people.  And likewise, I don't feel like I am just going along out of fear anymore either.  My perceptions of what is going on has changed and that makes all the difference to me and how I feel.

Dabeck--I have an incredibly difficult relative with BPD.  When she opens her mouth, lies and manipulation come out.  I have a new word for it: noise.

Your mother is a cause-and-effect person.  There is no insight other than what behavior do I need to do to get what I want, which is control over you?  The only thing that really puzzles them is when an old technique doesn't work anymore. "gosh, it worked yesterday!"

When I "broke up" with BPD Woman and her H, H came over and was trying to look the sad sack--sent by BPD Woman "you try to get through to her!" and really, I might as well have been sitting at a bar, watching a guy take his pick up lines off index cards.  Try one line.  Didn't work.  Pull out next index card.  Didn't work.  (He's a very poor actor).  I did the equivalent of "hey, here's a last drink for the road and have a nice trip.  see ya."

I no longer communicate with them in any way.  zip.  As for your mother's sunshine mode, it is simply another seduction scene to get you back.  As for "the first thing I think of in a.m. and last thing, etc." yuck-pooey!  IF you have to reply, say (in kind words of course) to let go and get a life. 

If I come into contact with seriously disturbed people in a mild way and they start in with their stuff, I calmly say (or at least think) "we're not doing this" to enforce my boundaries.  A different example is my d's classmate who has attachment disorder.  She routinely "borrowed" stuff and then broke it.  When people caught on and said no, she would get upset.  So when she asked anyone in our family to borrow stuff, we would just say no and shrug.  She would get upset.  And that was that.  She has other colorful behavior which I'll save for other topics.    But I have to say it is way more difficult to stay calm and detached when it is a family member.  I tried, but a total break is much easier for me and safer for my kids.

Good luck, and hope this helps.  MP

[cat]

Dealing with my N mother is like taking baby steps - - - and there's always the taking one step backwards too.

Just when I think I've dealt with the stuff she puts out - she puts out something even more stupid that hooks me into making comments.  The best thing I can do it put the phone on mute, and go about doing chores while she continues to hear herself talk!  The worst thing to do is to encourage or participate in the discussion.

I think dealing with Nmother's is like a day by day - hour by hour thing.  Instead of saying anything - just choke it down and walk away from it all.

[Plucky]

The best thing I can do it put the phone on mute, and go about doing chores while she continues to hear herself talk! 

I agree with cat.  I keep the phone to my ear so I am say uh-huh now and then and if I think she might have said something important, I ask, 'excuse me what did you just say?".  I can see she is baffled by my lack of response and she gets off the phone really quickly these days!  What a blessing!
Plucky

[dabeck]

Thank you all for such great advice.  I, also, will walk around my apt doing chores and sometimes I also watch TV while talking to her.  And, I also will chime in when I think she might have said something worth listening to, but mostly she's content not hearing my say one thing, just listen.  It's sad, really, but otherwise I'd never call her as I get so damn frustrated.  So, now I never call her, not anymore. 

True to form she asked me all these questions about school, like she was oh-so-interested, and then never bothered to call me this week to see how the first week of classes went.  I guess not that interested afterall.  Figures.  The good thing is, not hearing from her makes my life more normal, as it were, and all together much less stressful.  Now me and my husband make jokes about her, trying to lighten up my usual mood about her (which in the not-too-distant past was that we/he could not mention her at all).  It seems to have helped me let go of some of my anger towards her and realize that despite what I may have believed in the past, nothing I say or do will ever change her.  All I can do is create the boundries that I need to stay sane and not to do or say anything I regret later.

The sad thing is, I've had several people close to me urge me to get closer to her as I will feel so horrible and filled with regret when she dies.  That seems like an insincere gesture so instead I tell them I get what they're saying and will consider it, but truthfully I'm just being nice.  Yes, with other situations with parents I might agree with these people.  But, with her it's a life-long issue and as long as we can remain civil and I don't stoop down to her level and engage in her discussions, then I'd have to say I have no regrets.

As for the politics that a couple people above mentioned (arguments/conversations they'd had with their N parent). I just have to laugh.  My mother told me this wonderful fictious tale that my husband and I have found to provide us with laughs upon the re-telling time and time again.

Scene:  some airport in Florida, bar with tall bar stools, mom is sitting in one tossing back her second bloody mary and there is an empty bar stool next to her.  Up walks one service man and one service woman.  They order a drink (not sure if it was alcoholic or not, that wasn't mentioned) and wait, standing at the bar, as the bartender pours it.  Mom hops off of her stool ("wasn't even a second thought") and turns to them offers them her seat.  They protest, ("oh no, we couldn't, they say") but she absolutely insists.  They say "Thank you" and she says (and this is when I cannot keep a straight face when I tell the story) while reaching out and gently grabbing the male service person on the arm in a gesture of gratitute, "NO, thank you."

Why is this so funny?  Well, if you knew my mom you'd get it but understand, the woman is all about pampering herself and really, she has never so much as considered charity (be it monetary or  volunteering).  She votes for (gasp) Perot because (and she admits it) she thought he'd be the best candidate to save her her precious money ("I am so sick of govt spending my money on social programs").  Whatever.  I hope you laughed too.

Thanks again!

[Moira]

Hi Dabeck et all!! N parents are sooo delightful aren't they? I left home at 17, put myself through university and then as soon as I graduated I moved across Canada to the West Coast. Good having the Rockies( huge mountain range) between me and my toxic family! When my N mother would call I would simply put the phone down and go do something else. I'd come back later and guess what?- she'd still be nattering on and never appeared to know I wasn't on the other end. Then I'd hang up never having said a word to her! Empowering!!! Your strategies sound very healthy- keep it up!!! No winning with Ns no matter what you do. After she died in Feb. I thought I might feel some sort of guilt, remorse...Noooo! What I felt was relief even though I'd had no relationship with her for years. Since then, though, all sorts of buried childhood memories are surfacing- but amazingly not all of them are horrific. For the first time in my life I now actually have some good memories of her. One of the clearest one is being 6 yrs. old, summer, sitting on the back steps in a lovely garden with fruit trees( farm country) and we were shelling peas and laughing. I can rmember the smells, how sweet the peas stated and my mother was relaxed and affectionate. I now treasure that memory and it helps when I get stuck in the negative and abusive memories. i know lots of people who unfortunately never have anything positive to remember. But, you know, I never thought I did either. Congratulations again Dabeck and I'm sure you'll ace your Spanish exam next time. Definately not a failure on your part! Hugs, Moira

[dabeck]

Moira,

Oh, thanks, I did ace the exam two weeks after I failed the oral section (I only failed that one section because I choked).  That was, um, er, 10 yrs ago (yup, it's been 10 yrs since I graduated from college).

Now I have another question for you (and anyone who'd like to weigh in).  My mother is on the inside track with knowing about what is going on with my uncle (he is obese, as a result diabetic, and as a result going blind and has to decide how to deal with this (maybe get the stomach surgery that to him would be very, very risky)).  Thing is, she told me all this before our last fight and I guess I'm not supposed to know (as it is a sensitive thing). So, typical of my family, I get to be worried and say nothing.

Should I email her for this info or just wait to see what happens?  I mean, I have had it so good not talking to her, no drama no worries.  The only thing she did was visit my dad when she was in Mpls last and apparently she said nothing to him about me (which I told her if she did, I promised I'd never talk to her again).  Still, she's not emailing me so the games continue.

Thanks again for all your help.  I'm happy to hear you are at the point of good memories.  I am still making fun of the situation with my husband though, at least I can laugh at it. 

Smiles,
Danielle