N mother

[dabeck]

It's been a while since I've posted, lots has happened.  Most recently, I am again dealing with my N mother who has once again taken to verbal abuse.  But, this time she's calling others to complain, insult and demean me, mainly she calls my father (her ex of over 17 yrs ago).  That said, since this is not new (well, she's never involved dad before) I just don't know what to do.  She visited a month ago and was abusive the last two days of her visit, disrespecting my home with my husband, getting drunk, spilling wine all over and yelling at me when I dared to disagree with her (no, I didn't argue, I just said, "let's agree to disagree" and that set her off).  So far, according to her, I am making all the wrong decisions in my life.  In a nutshell, here is what she said about me to my father:

I am a...

1) Pseudo-Intellectual, "Where has all that education gotten her?"
2) selfish person
3) disrepectful person


I don't...
1) know how to love her or anyone else
2) love my husband at all

I..
1) put her down all the time
2) made a mistake by moving to NYC to get another graduate degree
3) don't accept or love my family
4) never loved her
5) promised I'd give her a copy of my book (the one I wrote) and never did, how selfish

Do I confront what she said, ignore her, or wait to see how I feel after the anger and hurt wear off?

Thanks so much for your help.

[mudpuppy]

Hi dabeck,

Do I confront what she said.......

Waste of time. She won't hear a word you say.

 

ignore her.......

That's getting closer to my idea.

or wait to see how I feel after the anger and hurt wear off?

Now you're gettin cold again.

Maybe you could consider a fourth option;
change the locks and your phone number.

Are you getting anything from the relationship that is worth that kind of abuse?
If so, grin and bear it.
If not, put her on a slow boat to China and hope it sinks.
Almost undoubtedly she's not going to change, except to get worse.

mudpup

[chutzbagirl]

Hi dabeck,

Sorry to hear about your N Mom.  I've got one too.    

Recently someone asked me how I'm doing since I completely detatched from her 1 1/2 years ago.  I responded by saying that it feels good to be released from the emotional turmoil I experienced as a direct result of that relationship.  I'm still dealing with the after effects of being raised by a N - but it is awfully nice to not have any active abusers in my life any longer.

Best wishes to you. 

chutzbagirl

p.s. I learn in recovery that if I don't take care of myself...nobody else will. 

[Xenia]

Firstly, I'd recommend you try not to focus on what she has been saying to your dad: if she's anything like my Nmother, 90% of what comes out of her mouth is complete **** and not worth giving brainspace to.

Also, I remember a similar incident where my mother came to stay and ended up practically accusing me of having secretly damaged her psion organiser.  I argued my innocence for a while, before thinking, why on earth am I even trying to defend myself against spurious accusations from her?  I got down to the basics: told her she was staying with me, being taken out by me, why was I having to defend myself against her paranoid accusations when clearly demonstrating my goodwill by I was being hospitable? I told her that if she didn't cut it out she'd being going home immediately, at which I left her in the car to think about it while I popped into a shop.

It worked.  When I came out she was like a different person.

Ns are afraid of abandonment.  Terrified of it.  When I told my mother I'd send her home, I took control (hooray!!) and dangled that magic abandonent card.  I know it sounds manipulative, but you have to use strategies that will have a chance with Ns.

Good luck Dabeck. 

[Brigid]

Hi dabeck,
From my own experience with my n father and nabling mother, the only way I could have peace was to walk away and cut off all contact.  Fortunately, we did not live in the same area, so there was no chance of surprise visits.  There were times when I felt some guilt over having done that, but the stress that their presence caused in my life and the abusive behavior my children would have to witness, were not worth it.  They are both dead now, but I wish I had made that choice many years before.

I agree with mudpuppy that confrontation is a waste of time.  She will never acknowledge any wrongdoing or feel badly about it.  If you must maintain contact, learn some coping skills to minimize the stress to you and your family.

I wish you well.

Brigid

[missm]

Ah, the joys of the nmother.  My two cents:

All the accusations she levels at you are projection.  Regardless of whether or not they're true.  If they are, it's coincidental, she can't see you as a separate human being.   She's speaking from her own emptiness and pain, and trying to make you carry it for her.  My nmother did, and still does the same thing.   Don't waste your time or energy contemplating the  validity of her claims.  She 1) likes to hurt you to feel like she exists, 2) projects onto you anything she dislikes about herself. 

I agree with the other posters, cutting yourself off from her as much as possible will be the healthiest thing you can do.  I also know from personal experience how incredibly difficult this is.  Be strong.  Rember that anytime you engage her, whether to placate her or argue with her, she's taking energy away from you that you can use to heal yourself.  I'm betting she's already gotten enough of your energy for one lifetime.  These are things I have to remind myself of daily.

[October]

I am a...

1) Pseudo-Intellectual, "Where has all that education gotten her?"
2) selfish person
3) disrepectful person


I don't...
1) know how to love her or anyone else
2) love my husband at all

I..
1) put her down all the time
2) made a mistake by moving to NYC to get another graduate degree
3) don't accept or love my family
4) never loved her
5) promised I'd give her a copy of my book (the one I wrote) and never did, how selfish

I think I would do my very best not to react.   

This would be very difficult, in the face of such accusations, but they say more about her than about you.  For example, what is a pseudo-intellectual?  Someone who pretends to be an intellectual but actually is not?  Does that mean that your qualifications are actually fakes, or that they are fakes to her?  And what is better, a graduation from your actual college or a graduation from your mum's Nschool (which you would never achieve anyway)? 

I think it has been said before that to an N anyone looking after themselves in a normal, healthy way, is going to be regarded as selfish.  If I go downstairs now, and make myself a cup of tea, and then enjoy it, that is selfish.  That is what I was taught.  I was taught that the only acceptable behaviour is to make sure everyone in the house - or wider, the whole family - has a cup of tea, and a sandwich, and whatever else, first, and only then am I allowed to make myself one.  Which is why at parties I turn automatically into a kind of maid.    But of course by extension this is never enough.  We never finish looking after the others in order to reach the point where looking after ourselves is healthy and good.  As long as my Nmum has a single need in the wide world unfulfilled by me, anything I do for myself is necessarily selfish.

I cannot buy clothes while my mum might need clothes.  I cannot eat when my mum might be hungry.  I cannot gain a further degree when my mum will be made to feel inferior by my success.  I cannot be young and attractive while my mother is ageing daily and heading for old age.  I cannot be the person I was born to be, while she remains an emotional bonsai.  Even thinking about doing any of these things brings guilt and the risk of self sabotage.

If other people allow her to complain to them, then I would leave them to it.  It may take a while, but they will learn in the end, with any luck.  Meanwhile, tell your dad you are not interested in what she has to say, because it is all nonsense.  I think I would consider telling him that if she says anything else, you prefer not to be told about it.

[missm]

Bunny said something in reply to my own post about my nfamily that I think is relevant:

The way to enforce boundaries (IMO) is not to "explain" the boundaries (doesn't work) but to simply act them out. <snip> It's all about pavlovian training of these people. Rewards and punishments until they figure out what will fly with you and what won't.

The nparent is weaker than you are, and she needs you far more than you need her.  If you stand your ground, she may act out for a while, but I believe she will eventually adapt herself to your terms.  A friend of mine recently drew some very strong boundaries with her Nmother, and while she's still being a b**, she is slowly adapting, because she can stand to have that connection severed far less than my friend can.  I believe this about my own family as well (when I'm feeling rational).

[dabeck]

I just want to thank everyone who replied to my post.  You gave me the insight of your experiences and the encouragement I needed to not do my usual angry reply to my Nmom.  Each piece of advice hit home and was well-thought out and positive.  I even smiled at a couple of the funnier comments.  I will let you know how it turns out. 

I did leave out a bit of information that is  somewhat relevant to this story, she visited me for a week on June 18-26.  The first few days she was good, fun, cheerful.  By the middle of her stay she began getting meaner and meaner.  While she was here I found out I got the internship at the university I'd been trying to get into, but I was a bit conflicted as I was reminded (however slightly) of how much I missed my previous job and how strange it would be to return to a university setting without all my old friends, faculty and students .  Don't get me wrong, I was thrilled to land the internship, but bittersweet as this move to NYC has it's moments of homesickness (I moved here to NYC to get my MLS degree, since you need to Masters to be an academic librarian and I got some scholarship dough making the move worthwhile).  She went off on me, "I've never regretted one decision I've made in my life, you should not have ever moved" and "you are just being silly."  Personally, when you express your feelings you should not be yelled at.  Furthermore, she just continued getting drunk. The next night, she got so drunk she started lying about random things and discounting everything my husband had to say about the Vietnam War (as his father was a pilot in the war, he was just relaying a story and she said, "What does he know?" and, well, being in the war he knew a few things).  She returned to our apt to start a fight, spill wine all the way through our apt, down the hallway and into the lobby while wearing nothing but a nightie.  So, it was sad, pathetic, and more fighting (her telling me I never loved her and all that jazz).  I just responded, "you have a right to your opinion," and "we'll have to agree to disagree."  I didn't engage.  She, of course, woke up the next morning all perky, like nothing happened and didn't say a word about anything.  We don't live in a dorm, for crying out loud, I wonder what the neighbors think, or, if they (or anyone in the lobby ) saw her like that?  Crying, drunk, yelling.

Thing is, it bothered my husband so much (more was said than I am relaying as it is a long story) the he chose to write her a letter (email) and sent it off today.  Not on my behalf, but on his.  New territory but I think he should do what he needs to for himself.  He really feels her N behaviour is now coupled with her alcoholic behavior to very self-destructive points. 

So, if anyone has an N parent who also drinks, let me know, if you want, how you handle them.  For now, I think I'll take your advice and stay the heck away from her.  I should take care of myself.

[Brigid]

dabeck,
My nfather was also an alcoholic.  My nxfil is also an alcoholic.  Where my father is concerned, see my post above.  I had to stay away.  The drinking only made him more abusive and difficult to be around.

The alcoholism in the case of my xfil is what destroyed his children and created my nxh.  The whole family has always chosen to keep it a secret and not talk about it even to each other.  Even though he has been through treatment several times, he has nevered recovered.  Two of the kids choose to stay away as much as possible and 2 are enmeshed (my xh being one).  The enmeshed ones are the most messed up ones. 

The more you engage, the worse it will be.  Staying away is the best option imo.

Brigid

[Moira]

Hi dabek! My mother was an alcoholic N and my ex N partner was drug addicted. with regards to my N mother- she was a nightmare. Neither her drinking or her behaviour was ever discussed or acknowledged by anyone in the family except me. Of course I'm the liar! anyway- as soon as I left home, I chose not to have any contact with her or my enabling father. She would often call police with wild stories and accusations so they would track me down. I guess she thought this would make me pick up the phone or drop by. everytime I'd fill the police in and tell them they might consider charging her. Of course never happened. I relented in her old age and attempted to establish some contact out of pity. Foolish mortal on my part!! with age she was much worse with both drinking and Nism. I quickly deep sixed my misplaced pity and went back to my " cold, uncaring, selfish ways". she then escalated to calling me and my sister repeatedly in the middle of the night, drunk, alleging she'd overdosed. I always told her to call an ambulance and when she refused and said she was going to die, I told her I had several black dresses for her funeral- and hung up. My sister, who hated my guts for this " callous behaviour, would always fall for it and show up. Of course she never called 911 either or ever discussed it with anyone else in the family- incl. my father who always slept right through the drama. My family get togethers were always as source of neighbourhood entertainment as they typically involved police and occasionally ambulances. Anyway- curouis to know what the content of your Hs letter to your mom was? You mentioned something about her self destructive behaviour and I would guess- correct me if I'm missing it- he may have been expressing concern about this. Good luck! Destructive behaviour is the only thing Ns know how to do along with abusing. And who cares really what your neighbours think- no reflection on your family. My N mother would perform every time we were out in public and there was alcohol available and loudly abuse people- often remarks about me incl. my sex life- or her version of it and any other intimate detail you can imagine. I'd get up and leave. Of course I was the disruptive one for this! I think most people in my home town knew my mother- incl. every ambulance driver and cop- and I went to school with most of them! A leopard can't change it's spots and Ns can't grow a conscience! your worry and conern will only generate more abuse. The odd occasion now when I interact with my family- funerals only now- I don't speak at all to my N sister or her 2 N daughters- not one word. Neither does my brother. If they attempt to speak to me I turn and walk away. I am quite comfortable with my selfishness!! divorcing N family is difficult however it's the only healthy choice and as I said in ? another thread, I also chose not to associate at all with anyone who believes their lies. I have found contact with these do gooders is as destructive as dealing with the N because they undermine you and keep you connected to your N, thus feeding your self doubt and guilt.

[dabeck]

Well, I must admit, my Nmother pushed me too far and I reacted, for the last time.  I am so serious about not falling victim to my anger that I have taken her out of my phone, swearing my spouse not to ever give me her number if I want to contact her when I am angry.  For anyone who has been following my story, I have included excerpts out of my (and my husband's) email conversations with her.  As of today, we have concluded we have no choice but to cut contact with her as she will never change.  Please. let me know if you have any feedback for me on this, either what she said or what I've said.  I am open to any and all feedback. If any of what she said sounds familiar, please let me know, I'd like to know how truly N she really is.  By the way, my name is Danielle so when I am referenced, you know who (and my mother's name is Cathy and Jon is my husband).

Jon wrote:
Hi Cathy-
Your e-mail provided me with valuable insights regarding your
 thoughts and communication style. Thank you for taking your time to respond.
  
>>>>  Honestly, I wasn't going to respond to your e-mail, it was easy
>>>> enough to just ignore it, give up and let what you said cause me to
>>>> be
>>>> bitter. However, I decided to express to you my feelings in a
>>>> respectful manner. I hope we are better people for it.
>>>>  
>>>>  I ask that you read/listen to my words carefully and thoughtfully
>>>> as
>>>> I did yours. I am putting my time and heart into this and it is one
>>>> of the more difficult things I've had to do as an adult child but
>>>> worth the effort, I feel. Please don't disregard it and by
>>>> extension,
>>>> me. I'm fairly vulnerable here.
>>>>  
>>>>  We appreciate our parent's role and guidance in the past that is
>>>> why
>>>> this situation is emotionally confusing and challenging to us now as
>>>> adult children. We hear one thing and see another, it is
>>>> inconsistent
>>>> however, we realize none of us is perfect and we can't point
>>>> fingers,
>>>> that is destructive and always has been however, we can express
>>>> ourselves respectfully. We continue to love our parents and care
>>>> about their lives no matter how volatile, without judgement. It is
>>>> difficult for me to hear you question that. I'm trying to figure
>>>> out
>>>> what good that does.
>>>>  
>>>>  I've included your recent e-mail to me (see below). You told me
>>>> originally you let the past go and don't get angry about it.
>>>> Clearly,
>>>> Cathy, you weren't hones t with me. If you had these feelings 6
>>>> years
>>>> ago it would have been healthy, wise and respectful for you to bring
>>>> them up in a timely manner as opposed to suppressing them until now
>>>> when nothing can be done and it comes out sounding bitter. There is
>>>> absolutely nothing wrong with respectfully expressing your thoughts
>>>> and feelings, especially with your family as I am doing here. Also,
>>>> it is OK to express anger but not judgement. That goes for anyone,
>>>> including you, Danielle, me, my Dad, Shari, my Mom, Claude, Kevin,
>>>> Diane, whoever...
>>>>  
>>>>  I continue to believe things will change for the better, one way or
>>>> another. My hope in contacting you initially was that I'd better
>>>> understand what occurred and be able to empathize, to grow and be a
>>>> better person to improve my overall relationship you, Danielle, my
>>>> parents, etc. I've addressed my parents the same way when things
>>>> are
>>>> confusing and need clarity. It sometimes has been painful but that
>>>> certainly isn't turning my back to my family, in fact, the complete
>>>> opposite. It shows you are willing to invest your time and heart
>>>> into
>>>> the relationship, not bury your feelings because it is too tough,
>>>> scary or easy. It is both the parent's and the child's
>>>> responsibility
>>>> to invest in a respectful relationship and to not give up. This is
>>>> my
>>>> part. I learned this and it was reinforced while my Dad was in
>>>> treatment for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th time and conintues now. When
>>>> these
>>>> relationships work, there is free flow of feelings and respect, in
>>>> which everyone is richer in the most meaningful way. I've heard
>>>> when
>>>> you die you don't take anything with you but your soul.
>>>>
>>>>  If you'd like to have a positive, constructive, respectful dialog
>>>> that attempts to improve the situation I am available. You can call
>>>> me. If you choose to bring up the past in a
>>>> negative,
>>>> destructive, judgemental manner, I am not.
>>>>  
>>>>  Ultimately, it is up to you how you express yourself. However, if
>>>> you need help, then ask. If you have a question, then ask. If you
>>>> have a thought or feeling, express it without judgement. My hand is
>>>> extended to you as far as it can go right now as a son-in-law and
>>>> as a
>>>> person.

>>>>  Cathy, I can only wish for you peace of mind and the time to heal
>>>> your heart.
>>>>  
>>>>  Respectfully,

She Replied:
You and Danielle have been very fortunate to have the parents you have.
 Sent you
>>>>  both to college and supported you both in everything you both ever
>>>> wanted
>>>>  and loved you unconditionally . Chuck and Sheri your parents and me
>>>> and
>>>>  Chuck we all paid for everything and only wanted the best. The
>>>> wedding I
>>>>  know your parents paid for more but I do know I made the veil
>>>> happen
>>>> and I
>>>>  know I watched it thrown on the floor no dance from you or Danielle
>>>> just
>>>>  disappointment that I didn't speak. I sit here tonight looking
>>>> for a
>>>>  wedding picture of you both and it doesn't seem to matter to either
>>>> of you
>>>>  how your parent's feel. Kayla was your flower girl no picture was
>>>> ever sent
>>>>  to them. So Jon don't talk to me about all the wrong that you two
>>>> are
>>>> trying
>>>>  to get through with your bad parents we all loved you and our lives
>>>> were
>>>>  spent for you both. By the way there is nothing wrong with calling
>>>> your Dad
>>>>  on Father's Day I wanted to tell you to call him he was and is a
>>>> good
>>>> Dad
>>>>  the only one you will ever have, he maybe sick but man if he had
>>>> cancer
>>>>  would you have called him. You can stay out of the Alcholisim stuff
>>>> with him
>>>>  but it is ok to let me know how much you love him.
>>>>
>>>>  Didn't mean to go on. But will now cut it off to say I really don't
>>>>  understand all of this when children are suppose to love there
>>>> parents and
>>>>  maybe some don't and this may be what has happened to me with
>>>> Danielle,
>>>>  there is nothing I can do anymore except to say I am done. I
>>>> haven't
>>>> slept
>>>>  and feel like I am loosing my mind, so I will say if she wants
>>>> nothing to do
>>>>  with me than that may be the best for her.
>>>>
>>>>  Jon no more response this is to hard and if you two want nothing
>>>> more
>>>> to do
>>>>  with family then so be it, but please no more of this.

Then, earlier today....

Dear Jon,
>>>>  I am so sorry of the distress you are going through, that by the
>>>> way
>>>> is the reason parent's don't really share in depth of what they are
>>>> feeling, because it is our job to make you the children feel safe
>>>> and
>>>> ok. I won't say to much more except to say you are right when you
>>>> die
>>>> you don't take anything with you but you soul. Jon I am sorry, you
>>>> guys just have to remember to respect your parents my God we are
>>>> people too and I don't think we did that bad of a job. Of course I
>>>> had
>>>> these feelings 6 years ago but as a parent you could not imagine
>>>> such
>>>> a thing happening so of course that could never be communicated
>>>> When
>>>> I moved back to MN no regular contact and maybe the hardest thing
>>>> was
>>>> the phone calls that were not answered or ever returned. Please no
>>>> more of this. Maybe when you two have a child you will understand. A
>>>> parent lives there life for their child and still try's to have a
>>>> career and love .
>>>>
>>>>  So my dear know I love you and Danielle with all my heart, but I am
>>>> done explaining myself I really shouldn't have to ,
>>>>  I am the Mom here.
>>>>
>>>>  All my love,
>>>>  Mom

Then to me right afterwards...
Danielle,
>>>>  Tell him to stop this has all been so hard I just need it to stop.
>>>> If
>>>> you want to talk sometime in the future , that would be ok but let
>>>> some time pass as right now I am so hurt and don't want to talk.. I
>>>> love you Danielle and always will. Please tell Jon to stop this.
>>>>  Love,
>>>>  Mom

My reply moments later...
He just wanted to try to strengthen our relationship, sadly, you are
>>> the one that is making this hard.  I have nothing more to say on this
>>> matter.  If you chose to resolve this or talk in the future, the ball
>>> is in your court as you said to me last friday night that you are
>>> done
>>> with me, now and forever.
>>>
>>> take care,
>>> Danielle

Her reply moments later...
Yes I am sure that is what he was trying to do and I do appreciate,
>> however
>> the subject is also closed to me. What I said that Friday night was I
>> was
>> totally and completely done forever with your degrading comments to
>> me(from
>> the way I eat Bing cherries,not knowing NY baseball team, I'm sure
>> Harrington doesn't want to hear about my prom dresses, to no you
>> can't go on
>> the roof in your robe ect although I never quoted them). I may have
>> worded
>> somewhat differently but that is what I meant.
>>
>> No Danielle if you chose to resolve this or talk in the future the
>> ball is
>> in your court. I won't quote any of the things you said to me over the
>> phone. Your feelings for me were loud and clear.
>>
>> Love,
>> Mom

My final reply (she let me get the last word for the first time)
He just wanted to try to strengthen our relationship, sadly, you are the one that is making this hard.  I have nothing more to say on this matter.  If you chose to resolve this or talk in the future, the ball is in your court as you said to me last friday night that you are done with me, now and forever.

take care,
Danielle

Then I had to clarify...
I sent this off to quickly, I should've finished my thought.  When I say he (meaning Jon) was trying to strengthen our relationship, I meant the one he and I have with you.  He was merely trying to understand why you got so upset when you were here to say things (to me) like that I never loved you and that I don't know how to love (and that I don't love him).  That, to me, is probably the worst thing(s) you can say to another human being, given that love is fundamental to our society, our lives, our happiness.  Say what you will about my education, my future, my personality, my lifestyle, but to say I am unable to love, horrible.  He wanted to know why you said those things because I was up half the rest of that night sobbing, he wanted to get to the bottom of why you say such horrible things.  No, you are right, you don't "need to explain yourself" any more to me, him or anyone.  If that is the type of non-relationship you'd like to have, share pleasantries and what not, so be it.  He had hoped to open up a dialogue and get to the bottom of why you'd say those things to me.  I told him to do what he wanted as it is his life.  Honestly, nothing you can say to me has the power to hurt me anymore.  I know I can love, I know that I do.  And I know who I love and I don't need to explain myself to you either.

That said, you no longer have the power to enrage me.  If you chose to say nasty things behind my back, or accuse me of being an unloving, uncaring person, go right ahead.  Right now, in my life, I am proud of my accomplishments and who I am, even if you are not. Right now, I am truly happy.

No one ever accused you of being a bad parent or what not, we just wanted to know what drove  your actions when you were here.  That is all.  You are responsible for bringing up all the past incidences, of which we were unaware of your feelings until now.  You can own that side of this, if you so chose.

Take care,
Danielle

[Moira]

Hi dabek! Very interesting reading the emails between you, your H and your nmother. Wow- so many words all signifying nothing- to your Nmother's point of view. Did she " get it"? Noooooo. Will she ever get it? Nooooo. Will she use your concern to abuse you? Yeeeesss. As you said earlier, at least your H has said his piece. Maybe that's the more important point- he's said it, now it's a fait accompli.Thanks for including all the dialogue. I have to say I'm relieved my N mother has died- funny how most of my sibs were relieved as well. In fact, some of us said at her funeral that it was literally the only family get together we've ever had that was free of fights, abuse etc.- except for my N sister! And I have my N mother to thank in a way as since her death in Feb. it allowed me to see my N as an N- ohmygod!!I'm living with my mother!!! Thanks mom!

[dabeck]

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.  It makes me feel more normal to have other people agree that she is not communicating, sometimes her nonsense confuses me to the point of giving in out of shear frustration.  Not this time.  I am also glad that you have been free of this fighting, so looks like you were living my same hell.  As my husband said, I need to learn to use this as a lesson safeguarding me against becoming like my Nmother (as your sister has, as your emails indicate).  I re-read another book on being a child of an N parent and it scares me to think about how many children of N's become N.  I just hope to take all this in and make sure that I never, ever, lean in that direction.  Does that ever worry you?

[Moira]

Hey dabek! Rest assured, you are NOT a N!!!! All of us who have had the " pleasure" of growing up in a N family think about this concept- holy excrement( my French..heehee)- am I one of those?? It often feels that way because Ns behaviours are so crazy making we end up looking like the nutbar- instead of them. I don't know how many times in a therapy session I'll be listening to the family member or partner of a N appearing to be hysterical etc when trying to express their pain. All the while the N sits there like a Cheshire cat relishing the pain and looking like a " normal" person. And of course, THEY'RE EVER SO CONCERNED ABOUT THE OTHER PERSON'S MENTAL HEALTH!!! See doctor, I TOLD YOU, my wife, sister etc is the crazy one, NOT ME. I look at my own behaviour with my recent ex N and am still reeling. I regularly lost control, yelled, screamed, was profane, shoved him and broke things. NEVER in my life have I EVER acted that way. Now with some hindsight, I see no matter how twisted my responses were, they were somewhat adaptive- I had the right to be pissed off, enraged etc by the lies, abuse etc. At that time I too was reduced to behaviour worthy of a 6 year old given that rational adult communication was non existent and impossible with a N. You are a kind loving soul with a heart and a conscience- Ns have none of those qualities- no kindness, no heart, no love, no soul and no conscience. You are a N survivor, not a N. I may sound like a hard ass here, but loving a N- whether relative or partner- is always a losing prospect. A waste of emotion on our parts.