Why are so many N's physicians?

[Pineflint]

I'm struck by how many people's N's (including my own) are doctors. Does doctoring make people into narcissists, attract people who are already N's, or both?

I think that a big attraction for N's is that being a doctor provides instant status, more than almost any profession. If you say you are a "businessman" this could mean that either you are a grocery store owner or Donald Trump...too vague. If you say you are a "lawyer," it could mean you are a greasy little ambulance chaser. But when you say you are a "doctor," everybody knows instantly that you are smart, rich, and capable.

[mum]

Well, I think you pretty much nailed the answer to your question. It looks good, there is a lot of control involved.....
I have a friend who fits this bill nicely.....and will even admit it (so maybe she isn't too far gone down the N road).

[miss piggy]

Hello,

Ns are attracted to any profession with status and that allows them to play "god".  Priests, judges, doctors...

I think many doctors are raised in N vacuums too.  I see many kids who are already being pressured by their parents to be the "best", go to the "best" schools, and get the best grades in order to get into medical school.  Pressure galore.  There is no time to play, get to know who you are (because you already know) and you must not fail.  In addition, the training can lead doctors to put feelings aside and look at the human body as a machine. 

Just some thoughts.  There are some nice exceptions though. 

MP

[Bella]

Incredibly, for such a raving all-out N, my mother is a psychotherapist.... and I'm sure its about control.  If they come to you on their knees, how can they possibly be any threat to you?  Plus, you get to keep them dependant for years.  Perfect N profession really.

Curiously, though, my mother is very overweight and has blood pressure that is through the roof, but refuses take any medication for it or recognise that she could have a stroke/heart attack and drop dead any minute.  The reason?  She deeply distrusts doctors and will not see one even though her life depends on it.  

Bel

[daylily]

I think becoming, and being, a doctor taps into the positive aspects of narcissistic traits, such as self-discipline, self-confidence, and the ability to trust one's decisions.  I can't say I've known very many doctors well enough to judge whether they had NPD, though.  I'm a little surprised that anyone--unless he or she is a physician and knows many others--could state with any degree of certainty that many doctors are N's.  I think all we can say is that doctors seem to manifest their narcissistic tendencies more openly than others.

I think it's worth remembering, too, that the tremendous status given to doctors (at least in the U.S.) tends to nurture those tendencies.  The training is a crucible of self-confidence and determination.  You have to have tremendous faith in your own ability in order to survive residency.  You have to be the kind of person who asks forgiveness rather than permission (or, at the least, you have to have that element in your character).  I wouldn't label any of these traits a personality disorder.

Just a thought.

[vunil]

My sister is a doctor, and while she definitely doesn't have NPD she has very N tendencies. Marta's story reminded me very much of the things my sister does.  One time she announced that my doctor (whom she doesn't know and who is in another town many states away from her) is not competent, that I picked him just because he is nice, and that she knows lots of patients who have been harmed by doctors just like him.  She said this very confidently based on no information (he is in fact very competent).  She then told a story of patients who went to a doctor "just like him" and their baby died-- it had some disease that I already know my child doesn't have, so what is the relevance?  And how mean!  She seemed to want me to change doctors for no reason-- just to get me to do it.  She does that kind of thing periodically.  I have stopped listening to her.  But I wonder-- does she do this kind of thing to her patients?  Just to make them jump when she says jump?  I have noticed she says contradictory things very confidently-- this must be confusing to people who are trying to get care from her. 

I will say, though, that while there are definitely N doctors, anyone who wants to really see some NPD in full-fledged action should go into academia.  Oh, my.  I am not sure the percentage of people with NPD who go into academia, but it sure ain't 0.

[vunil]

Yes, an academic meeting should be required for all psychologists studying N behavior.  Lots of grandiose speeches that really make little sense.  And everyone needs ego massaging, to the point that it's really tough to get things done because while you are suggesting something you have to make clear that all other suggestions are extremely wonderful too, and everyone in the room is extremely important.  The posturing is really pretty hilarious, combined with some of the more PD types spending a lot of energy trying to keep people from having things they want (even if the speaker doesn't himself want it either).  If I had never studied NPD I would have no idea what was even going on.  The staff, who are normal, must think the people they work for are insane.

Actually, some docs are like this-- if you make a suggestion (about your own health!) it had better be phrased in such a way that makes clear you aren't saying you know more about anything than they do.  I've purged myself of such doctors because I really like to discuss things with them without having to worship them every minute.

[mum]

well, if we are diverging into other professions: I have never met so many N's as when I worked in the performing arts.  Actors, dancers, in particular. I do know a lot of musicians, who do not seem to have the same "concentration" of N's (more of a team sport, perhaps?).  Don't know for sure....but my second husband is a dancer with an enormous and fragile EGO and most of the performing arts community in my city (of whom he feels like the golden king to) are insufferably self centered.

That said, let's face it....N's are everywhere....and yet, I have found in my career, that elementary education seems to be a refreshing respite from selfishness (secondary being not so free of these personalities). Just my experience, I guess, who knows, really?

[bunny]

I think it takes a certain degree of aggression and ego inflation to get through medical training. I needed surgery once - the surgeon was a HUGE N and I WAS HAPPY ABOUT IT. He was driven to do a perfect job on me, and he did.

Vunil - I work in academia and the narcisissism is unbelievable. But everyone at my level (staff) laughs at the faculty so we have an outlet.

bunny

[d'mom]

bunny said:

I think it takes a certain degree of aggression and ego inflation to get through medical training. I needed surgery once - the surgeon was a HUGE N and I WAS HAPPY ABOUT IT. He was driven to do a perfect job on me, and he did.



hi everyone been watching this thread. i think people with n tendencies will be drawn to any job with status, power, money, adulation, or outlet for obsessive/compulsive tendencies............ some dr jobs are like that - but not all.....  midwife, pediatrician, podiatrist, anything needing humility or social skills n's wouldnt want to be that kind of dr i would think. 

my father is as you know a cardiac surgeon - and in that field, the dr recieves unquestioning obedience, total control, etc.  thats a good field for an n'type person. 

i also want to say that n-obsessive perfection *can* lead to good work..... my father was considered one of the best cardiac surgeons in the world, during his time.....

but im sure i have told the story where he had broken his wrist and the other drs had to literally drag him from the o.r. to prevent him from attempting to perform open heart surgery left-handed. that is going a little bit over the edge, in terms of ego for me. so there is a fine line where ego passes into hubris.

id be interested to hear the occupations of all the narc/s here. just to compare.

[Sallying Forth]

My oldest Nbrother is a teacher who's been given many awards for teaching.

My youngest brother who I believe to be a N also is an engineer. Graduated top in his class at all levels of school, is in a specialized field working for the university where he graduated and already has a high status only 4 years after getting his Piled higher and Deeper degree. He and his engineer wife are "breeding" a whole generation of little Ns. He switched universities because he didn't like the rules at the first one. They expected him to show his work on homework and tests. My brother searched for a school which would allow him to play by his rules.

I was going to start a thread about my "wonderful" Nfather's career. He was a mathematician, held top secret clearance at his first job, and a manager . Can we say control freak? I remember one open house where my Nfather was a manager. All his, "people" as he called them, couldn't say enough wonderful things about him. They were even approaching me and my brothers to tell us the wonderful things my Nfather had done. There were awards and plaques all over the walls attesting to his great managerial skills and his very humane treatment of his "people." I wanted to puck! I never saw that man in my home. My husband's Nfather is nearly a cookie-cutter version on my own and his office had the same awards and plaques which said the same things. And he never saw that side of his father.

And my Nfather is still in a leadership role with a club he started. His name and face are regularly plastered all over the newspaper and web sites.

My Nmother lives through my brothers' lives, especially the oldest Nbrother. Whenever he fails, she fails. When he succeeds, she succeeds. And she "practices" her doctor profession through "diagnosing" AND suggesting treatment for the daughter-in-laws and the grandchildren. She joined Mensa and talks about how smart she is. For fun she would read encyclopedias, dictionaries and the thesaurus so she could know more than anyone else. I'm so glad my family is as far away from that as possible.

My bioNfather worked for the government in a powerful position and had top secret clearance. I met lots of Ndoctors and Npsychiatrists through his wonderful connections.

[dogbit]

Is it possible to display narcissistic tendencies while in your profession and be non-narcissistic with your loved ones?

[vunil]

Great question!  I think so.  In my profession (one of the top N professions, as we have all agreed here) you have to do a bit of the strutting around stuff to even have a shot at getting anything done and/or being successful.  I do that stuff when needed.  But I am nice to people who work with me on projects, good to my students, and nice to the staff (this is rare-- it is funny to chat with them about the speeches they get regularly given by "hotshots" who would like them to acknowledge their importance).  It's just that most of my colleagues have at least some N tendencies (they may not at home, who knows?) and at least two of them are full-fledged NPD nutties (who would have to behave that way everywhere, since they are over the edge), so in order to survive I have to behave very differently at work than I would other places.  And I am called upon to "perform" a lot in my job, and everyone likes it better if I am a bit more of a braggard/puffed up type than I would ever be in real life. It's just expected. I try to do it with a wink and a smile, and I try to make sure I don't hurt anyone while doing it.  But it looks pretty N when you watch it from afar.


I also can't in any way play the victim/giver of N goodies, at least not with regularity, because I would be relegated to doormat status instantly.  So the whole game is very different from "real life" where you get to pick who rounds out your day.

[d'smom]

Dogbit wrote:
Is it possible to display narcissistic tendencies while in your profession and be non-narcissistic with your loved ones?



this is something I was just wondering too! > becuase last night there was a news show about the BTK serial killer.... now that was a *very* scary man. dont know if anyone saw that. he was like, when n's go bad... reeeeally reeeeeeally bad....... he was definitely narcissistic and the specialists discussing him all said that. (among other things)

now, he was N in his job, as a 'corrections officer'.......  telling people what to do in a petty way.... people he worked with described him as overbearing and difficult..... he was n when he was tying people up and murdering them becuase their crying 'annoyed him'.  however he was also married for 30 something years and had two totally normal well adjusted children, one in the navy and an eagle scout, one a golf champ....... he was a boyscout leader and he was active in his church.

so in that case..... of a really really extreme narcissist...... he compartmentalised, so that his family was the only people who DIDNT see his n'ness.

now in my case, and in other families here as described, everyone at work love the n and thinks they are a saint, and then as soon as they get home, it all gets dumped on the family. 

that is how it was in my family. my father compartmentalised so his family was the only ones who 'suffered' or even saw his bad side......   so maybe, it is a matter of degree.  and how evil your bad side really is. and also, what you need from people. BTK  needed the support of his family as a base to go out and be a serial killer which was his true goal. so it was probly all an act to get what he wanted.   in most of our cases, our n's true goal is to have the power in their job, and so they are nice to the people at the job (relatively), and use their family as their n outlet.

but this was something i was just wondering about too. the specialist on the show called it 'compartmentilisation'. (sp)

[write]

I have an article somewhere detailing why being a pysician is conducive to n-issm....

But I think the real common explanation is that some parents push their children into this position for selfish gratuation....what better brag than your child is a doctor....etc.

There are probably other careers too....but doctor seems to involve immediate elevated status for the whole family.

my n-doctor friend tried to leave his career to become a lecturer a few years ago...his family were devastated as though he'd died or something tragic had happened...they pressurised him back into the career they chose for him, and his n- behaviours have increased ever since.

We always blame the n. for the situation, but I truly saw the other side there and how he was forced into this position.

He's a really weak person who could not stand up to his wife and family.