Is it narcissism?

[xazzer]

Hello everybody. I'm new here; I've been reading posts as a lurker for a few days and I'm excited to find this community. I look forward to learning more.

My father and I have never gotten along well and now its been over 5 years since I last spoke to him or saw him. I started to believe he was a narcissist after reading Sam Vaknin's "Malignant Self Love" website about narcissism. As I read I kept nodding my head...yup, this makes sense... so much seemed to fit him to a "T." It was as if something clicked, a light went on in my head and I began to understand what he was all about and why he has been the cause of so much grief and suffering in my life.

My dad has left a trail of tears everywhere he has been. Married 4 times, all breakups messy and full of angst. An alcoholic and a speed abuser. A chronic liar about things big and small. A belittling smirker, who brings that faint and infuriating inner arrogance to every encounter. Never able to admit he is wrong. A terrible listener: when he is "listening" you can tell he is just waiting for you to shut up so he can continue "educating" you. A shouter, a guilt-tripper, a perfectionist (in demanding others' behavior be perfect, that is, never his own), he takes delight in lording it over those he considers weaker than him, such as young children.  And so on. Sounds like a narcissist, right?

My conflict comes with the terrible guilt I have to deal with for cutting this man out of my life. Not a day goes by where I don't think of him or wonder if I've done something awful for refusing to deal with him. Years later, I STILL think of this bastard every day. When will it end?

And then I wonder if he really is a narcissist, and moreover, how valid this category really is. I'm sort of a "self-reliant" type and I have little patience with those who blame others for all their problems, so in a way its hard for me to accept the mantle of "victim" in this relationship. Part of me keeps wanting to make it better somehow, although all of my attempts, for decades, had previously failed.

I guess my biggest conflict is in dealing with the idea that "he will never change." This seems to be a cornerstone of narcissism theory: the idea that the N cannot be reformed, only dealt with or avoided. Accepting this gives me a certain amount of peace, but on the other hand, part of me wonders if it is a cop-out, a cheap and easy way to feel better about a lazy decision and to rationalize abandoning my father, which goes against all conventional morality. And what if he isn't really a narcissist and is just a "jerk"? Or what if he has "narcissistic tendencies" rather than NPD? Or what if these categories are just psychobabble nonsense to begin with? The whole thing makes me feel so confused and guilty.

I guess what I'm asking for in this rambling topic is: Have any of you struggled with this type of uncertainty? Not really knowing if you should embrace the definition of narcissism and cut ties? How did you resolve it (if you did)?

[vunil]

Hmmm-- I think I've met your father

First of all, although many folks here have had to do so, you don't always have to cut ties with a narcissist.  If you have to for your sanity, then you have to.  But it's not a requirement.  There are ways to deal with them that help mitigate the aggravation.

As for the labels, they really only should be used by licensed clinicians.  Oh well. We use them anyway!  There is lots of evidence that narcissism is real, and that there are people with NPD.  The true PD is pretty rare, and pretty recognizable (they seem nuttier than your average bear-- nutty enough that you know something is really wrong).  It doesn't really matter if your dad has NPD or just narcissistic tendencies, for your sake. It's enough to know that there is research on how he acts.

For me the benefit of the label is that I can read about others with the same issue, and I can read about what is recommended for me, a family member.  There are a lot of good books out there.  I resisted the labels myself (I think that is intellectually honest to do) but when I read people's stories in books and here and they were exactly my stories, I realized there is something to the classification.  If nothing else, it helps us find each other!  The patterns are striking, more striking than for some physical ailments.  I will say I think narcissism is one of the most cohesive personality disorders-- others do not strike me as much like that.

I wonder if your resistance to the label is a resistance toward really looking at your dad and how he has affected you?  Your description of him is very acute.  It's pretty clear this is an arrogant guy.  What was it like to grow up with him?  Has he affected your subsequent relationships?  That's the really important stuff to think about.

Oh, one more thing-- all of us fight with self-blame (and shame).  It is something they taught us.  We don't feel allowed to have negative feelings about others in our lives, including the N people.  It's just part of growing up with them-- they get us to feel that way.  So, of course you are wondering if your impression of him is wrong or your fault or unfair or whatever.  He probably never gave your impressions of things the least bit credence!  So you learned to doubt yourself.  But your private musings about him are your ownbusiness, and they can't be wrong.  They are yours. You can revise them, mull over them, commit to them, whatever you like.  They are private.

[xazzer]

Vunil, thanks very for that post. It was very thoughtful and honest, and I will mull it over a bit. I appreciate it.

I guess when thinking about this, one of the things that seems to come with understanding somebody as a narcissist is the idea that "they will never change" and "they don't feel things the way normal people do." This is where I get worried because it seems incredibly de-humanizing to write someone off like this. How can we really be sure these people don't feel pain the way we do? It seems like once you start applying this concept to people ("it doesn't matter what I do because my attitudes don't effect him...he doesn't feel pain like I do"), it isn't much more of a stretch to start applying the same thought process to normal people, which of course would be very wrong.

It certainly seems like I've spent a lot more time agonizing over HIM than he ever has over ME...but how can I really be sure?

Anyway, lots to think about.

[bunny]

It was as if something clicked, a light went on in my head and I began to understand what he was all about and why he has been the cause of so much grief and suffering in my life.

The "light going on" means your intuition is attuned with reality. And you can respect what your body and mind told you.


My dad has left a trail of tears everywhere he has been. Married 4 times, all breakups messy and full of angst. An alcoholic and a speed abuser. A chronic liar about things big and small. A belittling smirker, who brings that faint and infuriating inner arrogance to every encounter. Never able to admit he is wrong. A terrible listener: when he is "listening" you can tell he is just waiting for you to shut up so he can continue "educating" you. A shouter, a guilt-tripper, a perfectionist (in demanding others' behavior be perfect, that is, never his own), he takes delight in lording it over those he considers weaker than him, such as young children.  And so on. Sounds like a narcissist, right?

You're wondering whether he is "bad enough" for you to cut him off? The guy is a CHRONIC LIAR. On that basis alone, you need to keep a safe distance. And his other traits sound intolerable/unacceptable.


My conflict comes with the terrible guilt I have to deal with for cutting this man out of my life. Not a day goes by where I don't think of him or wonder if I've done something awful for refusing to deal with him. Years later, I STILL think of this bastard every day. When will it end?

It will end when you decide that you have a right to live.


And then I wonder if he really is a narcissist, and moreover, how valid this category really is. I'm sort of a "self-reliant" type and I have little patience with those who blame others for all their problems, so in a way its hard for me to accept the mantle of "victim" in this relationship. Part of me keeps wanting to make it better somehow, although all of my attempts, for decades, had previously failed.

Maybe you aren't a victim as much as someone who doesn't want to deal with a pathological person. And no one would blame you.


I guess my biggest conflict is in dealing with the idea that "he will never change." This seems to be a cornerstone of narcissism theory: the idea that the N cannot be reformed, only dealt with or avoided. Accepting this gives me a certain amount of peace, but on the other hand, part of me wonders if it is a cop-out, a cheap and easy way to feel better about a lazy decision and to rationalize abandoning my father, which goes against all conventional morality. And what if he isn't really a narcissist and is just a "jerk"? Or what if he has "narcissistic tendencies" rather than NPD? Or what if these categories are just psychobabble nonsense to begin with? The whole thing makes me feel so confused and guilty.

Someone who is personality disordered (chronic lying is an indicator) is unlikely to change since their nervous system, internal psychological structure, and emotional pathways are hard-wired to be distorted. It would take a team of doctors and shrinks decades to change this person; and the person would have to WANT IT. It's really a major rewiring job. So this isn't about your laziness, your hasty judgment on him, etc. It's about a person who is UNLIKELY TO CHANGE due to physiological and psychological factors. And you have a right to protect yourself. Maybe you think cutting him off 100% is too harsh and you could have some kind of relationship with him. That's certainly an option - as long as you are able to protect yourself. I think your uncertainty is not about whether he's a pathological narcissist  - because he clearly is - it's about whether you have a right to live and be happy.

bunny

[d'smom]

**I guess what I'm asking for in this rambling topic is: Have any of you struggled with this type of uncertainty? Not really knowing if you should embrace the definition of narcissism and cut ties? How did you resolve it (if you did)?**



hi:  i have this type of conflict sometimes but only in that, my father is such an excellent *actor*. his behavior has proven time and time again he isnt human. but he is such a good =actor=. we want to believe the act.  i know that i do.

how i resolved it before: i did cut off contact entirely between the ages of 18 and almost 30. during this time i felt NO GUILT. i felt nothing but relief. its difficult for me to understand any feeling of guilt.  he certainly was a jerk, i hated him, and i was away, i felt great.  the longer i didnt see my family the healthier i felt. no reason for guilt there. so the whole guilt thing eludes me.

however what happened to me later,  is maybe an object lesson to answer your question of 'do they change'....... becuase we had no contact until i was 30, they didnt have my address, nothing......... but after my daughter was born as many people know here we started having contact again. why? i wanted to believe they had CHANGED. that they could change. becuase im a nice person who has ethics and is human, which is exactly what they prey on in us. (what they are preying on in you right now to cause you this guilt.)

it had been a long time. they were ACTING NICE. and i wanted to believe the act. so i let my guard down and had contact again, and you know what, it was the worst decision i EVER MADE. as soon as they could, they dropped the act and came down on my life like a bear trap, and i wish every second of every day that they would simply die of a horrible disease and leave me alone.  i say this with every fiber of my being.

i should have listened to myself and everybody else in my life and run like hell. THEY DONT CHANGE. they only act like they change, they can lie in wait for YEARS, and wait for a moment of weakness (humanity) to get their foot in our emotional door...... and thats exactly what they will do. THEY DONT CHANGE.

i waited for.... lets see..... almost a dozen years during which i hoped they might change. im 40 years old now.  but as soon as they could they went right back as though i were 12 years old. it was a very hard lesson but ive really given up feeling as though they will ever change, and as soon as i can get them out of my life completely again, that is exactly what i will do. it will be sad for me, but i will not look back. i will need to do this for my own self preservation. i will feel sad, but i will NOT feel any guilt :}// they have proven repeatedly and for the last time that they are dangerous, they cannot be trusted, and they are pathologically toxic for my wellbeing.   despite my fantasies otherwise, i have to accept this for my health. some people can have relationships but in this case... i have to accept that they are too toxic.

if someone comes in my door and is attacking me with a dangerous weapon, and i have a chance to grab that weapon and disable that person and protect myself, i will do it, i will not sit around musing on whether ill be 'dropping to their level' or some other intellectual shim sham in order to prevent them from shredding me to peices and doing horrible things to me.

i will protect myself. sometimes, that is what you have to do. i wish my father were a human being and i will mourn for it. but i have to steel myself and realise.... it is JUST AN ACT. its not real.  he has proven it with his own actions. for my own sanity.
thats my feeling.
take care
dm

[miss piggy]

Dear X,

Thanks for your post, esp. since I got a lot of benefit from your questions and the replies!

In addition to what was already said, I'm to the point where I can recognize what's going on and recover quicker from the slaps and stings Ns need to dish out.  But it still hurts me.  I am not to  the point where I can be around my Ns and feel good or even indifferent.  I haven't cut all ties, but I do limit the amount of time exposed to Ns electroshock treatment!    

In fact, now that I know what is really going on, it shocks me literally (I feel queasy) because I am now recognizing symptoms of a screwed up personality vs. taking it on that I am messed up.  I don't say stick your head in the sand and it will hurt less.  I guess I am learning that I have to feel the pain to fully heal from it.  And the awareness and the pain sort of validates my new knowledge ("yep, there he goes again, thanks for the confirmation of my diagnosis!")

Also, I wouldn't focus so much on the labels to begin with except to educate yourself.  Addiction, pathological PDs, abuse or whatever the dysfunction is has produced a father/child relationship that is unhealthy for you.  Narcissism is a spectrum and only you can decide if he's a 10 out of 10 on your measuring stick.  (He would be on mine.)  

As for the guilt or the giving up, the replies here are great.  Only you can decide what is acceptable and tolerable.  And walking away doesn't make you a victim.  If your dad needs someone to beat up and you decide not to be beat up anymore, then you two are simply incompatible now.  

Good luck, MP 
PS: just read d's mom's reply--she's right, they don't change, we just fantasize that they will.  My guilt arises out of the seesaw between the good guy act and the incredible undercover selfishness.

[vunil]

How can we really be sure these people don't feel pain the way we do? It seems like once you start applying this concept to people ("it doesn't matter what I do because my attitudes don't effect him...he doesn't feel pain like I do"), it isn't much more of a stretch to start applying the same thought process to normal people, which of course would be very wrong.

I'm not sure anyone says that.  Of course everyone feels pain.  We aren't saying to take him outside and shoot him!  I think you should apply exactly the same standards to everyone, normal and whatever.  If a friend never listens, lies, abuses you, and appears not to consider your feelings in the least, then you probably find yourself busy when that friend calls, right?  Especially if you try to have a conversation about it, which you've tried with your Dad.

Anyway, you can decide to have contact with him, or not.  The more important issue is figuring out where he fits in your life (if anywhere), what to do with your guilt and mourning about not having the relationship with him we all wish we could have with our parents, how to deal with the probably jerky behavior he exhibited in your childhood (just guessing!), etc.

I guess the label is bugging you-- that seems reasonable.  Labels aren't great.  But we have to have a way to characterize people who do seem very similar to each other.

[Mati]

Hi xazzer

I have been through all of those doubts and still have them. When I first found out, (light bulb) I wanted to find a label to help me understand. I was on a psychopath site to start with, and although he met a lot of the criteria, I had doubts even though others seemed to think he was a p. Then I looked at NPD, and the same thing, until I decided to stop trying to put a label on him and concentrate on his behaviour and how it had damaged me. I reckon that I have been so damaged that I will continue to doubt my own thinking, but I have learnt to listen to my intuition which was always trying to warn me about him. I found that the damage to myself was the same as the damage that others reported on this and other sites for those involved with personailty disordered so I just stuck there, as it is a place where I have no doubts, then maybe later, when I am more sure of myself, I can be more exact but anyways it does not matter as I am not a psychologist and I have realised the futility of trying to warn others about him, apart from in the sense of talking about his behaviour. It has helped me a great deal to be in a 'sure place' and therefore leave the place of confusion he had put me in.

Then I had to think about whether as a Christian I should break all contact, as it seemed to be too drastic and what about forgiveness? So I learnt how to disengage from him emotionally, which is still not quite fully done as he has sucked me into an odd argument or two but I am getting better all of the time. He knows that I 'need my space' to sort myself out which gives me some distance. In fact I think that it has benefited me by learning how to have controlled contact but then this depends just on how much damage they can still inflict this way. If he was 'tearing me to shreds' then I would make more distance but again in an nonconfrontational way by letting it seem temporary to sort myself out, making it seem that I was the one with the problem. I must say that this was easier for me as it was he who dumped me.

I would say that the distance one needs is the kind that allows healing and experiment shows how much this needs to be. I do not want to just get back to how I was before him though, I want to recover from a whole lifetime of dysfunctional relationships as I do not see how I could have been so foolish to get involved with him in the first place by ignoring my intuition and how others were reacting to him.

I am now able to see through him more and more and at the same time, to recognise my own past dysfunction by the increasing difference in how he is conducting his life compared to how mine is becoming more and more 'normal' and I am building healthy relationships with new friends. In order to do this I have had to have very limited contact with him though with weeks of no contact.

But there have been times when it was not working out like the times when he has been crying and saying he misses me. It has been hard to be strong at times and maybe I have not made the right choice  and there is still a danger that I could go back to him, I am not sure, but anyway I have learnt that I must not act on decisions that I make when I am weak. I must be 'up' when I take notice of my thinking.

So I think that it has been a fine balance and still having contact has enabled me to help one of my sons anyway, who are still with him (they are adult) to analyse his fathers behaviour more and to be open to my suggestion that a lot of what he says is to get him more attention and that his arguments are staged. The son is seeing this more now as there are a lot of tensions between them which shows that my son is listening to me I hope. I have had to tread a very fine line to do this.

As my health has gone down, I expect that I would have been doing a lot better had I cut contact but I cannot walk away from my sons leaving them to him, even though they sided with him at first.

Once I can see that they are working him out themselves then maybe I can leave it nmore, which is how it seems to be going, and concentrate on regaining my health.

Sorry if I have rambled

Mati
xx

[xazzer]

Thanks everyone, for your advice and insights. I will think about everything written here.

[OR]

xazzer

alcoholic and a speed abuser. A chronic liar about things big and small. A belittling smirker, who brings that faint and infuriating inner arrogance to every encounter. Never able to admit he is wrong. A terrible listener

I agree with the other posters and ALL they have written. My H has a mental evaluation as self-absorbed Narrssisstic, It's a fact the label sticks to him like a glove.
I share this so others that know the symptoms I know them to be true with an N.

My mother had some kind of PD, from her I learned to second guess my intuition, feel everything I did was wrong so that when my RED FLAGS went up, I believed they must be wrong. I have no relationship with her for over 27 years. I have been emotionaly abandond by her, and thankful her poison is not in my life.

Then I met my Husband 27 yrs ago, he had major back surgury 1 year after we got married and used his health, his injury, his pain, his legal drug addictions to emotionaly abuse, lie, belittle, never say he's sorry, blame, terrible listener. But he was in pain ..............he had a short fuse, excuses all the time........
I kept forgiving, letting it go, didn't want to give up! Now we are getting divorced.


My H is like an onion he has many layers, it's been said they are hardwired this way.
Each layer STINKS like an onion, the stink gets worse with age.
Once you can agree that there is a problem understand the onion is not an apple you can close your eyes, plug your nose take a bite believe with all your heart it's an APPLE.

One day you will smell the stink, remove it from your life maybe never smell it again or understand you must plug your nose when you are near.
Tell yourself the stink does not belong to you, and tolerate as much as you can then walk away so you can once again breath.

I do believe the N gets worse with age, if my H were to read about an N, know it would be years of therapy, he would feel hopeless too. I feel hopeless, that he will ever change.

I will tell him if I see his behavior as being N so maybe he will be aware, of course it will be my fault, nothing will be corrected on his part.
I know that when he is being extra nice that he wants to SET me UP for some pain, the lie is coming or he wants to make sure if I want something,  he would want to  take it away.
If this is the way he will be, how do you deal with them the rest of your life. Be aware stay away don't fall in the trap, move on with your life the best you can.
He has his OWN life not able to share but must TAKE for what he believes is his, never yours.
Givers and Takers........you give he will take, will not matter how it affects your life.

We have a 12 yr old girl looking for her Dad to be well someday, how hopeless the N will become.
How sad and painful this is, all I can do for her is let her know she is not the one with the problem
I want her to know when the RED Flags go up, that her intuition is correct to run fast
Keep positive people around her for good advice to keep a stong back bone not to have apporval from people that are full of ILL will for her. 
Its not my first choice but in constant battle to keep from being abused  is no fun either.

Unplug your nose open your eyes the onion is the big surprize...............OR


 

[Beautiful]

OR,

I can relate to the N husband having surgery and using that excuse to be miserable to you for years.  But they'd never admit that they are the ones suffering from depression and taking it out on you.   No matter how much you try to support, help, nurse, encourage, motivate, love, and attend to them.  They fail to see what a burden they've been and totally inept about your wants and needs because the world evolves around them.   You are nothing but an object.  My Nhusband never said, gee thanks for taking care of me.    Thanks, for being there and showing all your love and support  Gee, I appreciate you.   This is kind of tricky, because we were only married for a month.  He expected me to take care of him and I gladly did my duty.    It's the "appreciation" of devoting yourself to the N, that goes unoticed, unreocognized and taken for granted.  They take and you give and they don't give back.   They almost expect you to serve them. 

One month after we married, my N husband had major knee surgery.  An inmplant to be precise, experimental.  He was on his back for the first 3 months of our marriage with his leg in a machine.  He could not walk on it, only with crutches. I served as nurse-maid, while working a full time job, and keeping up the house. On top that we were trying to conceive, as if that wasn't difficult with his pain and the machine, and the fact that he probably wasn't in the mood!  But he married a 42 year old, so we had to hurry up.     That is the most prevalent characteristic of narcissism is the constant pressure, pressure, to do more and with absolute perfection catered around his needs.  in addition, you are constantly criticized for being sub-par to their expectations.

My N's recover period was 18 months - which he stretched out for 2 years.   He poo-pooed physical therapy and basically neglected his body and knee recovery because it was too much work.   Somehow, I got all the brunt of his frustration over that.   In addition, we could no longer do activites together (snow skiing, water skiing, bike-riding, walking in the park) and while I was very sensitive to this it really stressed our marriage because we were unable to have "fun" and we were both very active, athletic people.    I continued to participate in activities, but I could sense the envy and jealously it caused him to sit back and watch everyone else have fun while he nursed his recovery.

For N's it's all about the "attention".   His knee is no better off now than it was before.  The big experimental surgery was a flop.  But, he certainly got a lot of sympathy and interest about his knee and pity over his inability to participate in life's activities.  Not to mention that he denied all along that he was depressed over it but never admitted it.  He just took it out on me with rage.  Or he ignore it and buried himself in work.

 

[miss piggy]

Hi Beautiful,

Sheesh, your post could have come from my mother!  The difference is after, oh, three or four knock-down-drag-out fights, he would say "thank you".  Yeah, right.  And then my mother would (rightfully) feel manipulated.  Way too little, way too late. 

Yep, the attention to be gained from being sick, ie. special status, is MUCH more important than SELF-care and independence for the N.  They need others catering to their every need.  Illness, surgery, ER visits, that is, endless medical drama at my parents house right now.  This is the only way he can dream up demanding all the attention he can gather from people around him.  Because who can argue with medical problems--important right?  If we utter one peep about him slacking off on the SELF-care, he whines and shoots the most dirtiest look he can muster out of doctor's view. 

It really is wearing, because I am a sympathetic person, but I'm so sick of the manipulation and fake drama. 

MP

[Sallying Forth]

I guess what I'm asking for in this rambling topic is: Have any of you struggled with this type of uncertainty? Not really knowing if you should embrace the definition of narcissism and cut ties? How did you resolve it (if you did)?

I cut ties for 10 years and then made physical contact again. The t I was seeing at the time suggested I see and treat my parents and brother (all N) is if they are senile. It worked for me then and continues to work for me now. I've kept my physical distance (1500 miles away) and my contact is basically through email. There is the occasional phone contact but not by me. My Nfather (possibly pathological) continues to send emails that are obscene and I choose to NOT acknowledge that I have received them.

For my Nmother I finally embraced the reality that she is a pathological N (and OCPD). This was difficult to accept but then everything made such perfect sense. And I was finally able to let go of the fantasy that she would some day change. SHE WONT EVER CHANGE.

I've resolved all this by deciding to free myself from their entangled narcissistic vines and live my life.

[daylily]

Hi xazzer:

I deal with this sort of guilt and confusion all the time as it relates to my mother.  All I can say is that if someone hurts you, you have to find a way of protecting yourself from that hurt.  Does it really matter so much what label applies, or doesn't apply, to that person?  If it helps you to make sense of what you have to deal with, by all means study NPD and apply what you learn to your situation.  But I agree that perhaps we should let the clinicians stick to diagnosis, and just concentrate on finding a way to deal with what life has handed us.

For my own part, it's about boundaries--which my mother does not understand at all.  She simply doesn't understand that I'm an adult, I have a life apart from hers, and she is responsible for her happiness, just as I am for mine.  She's still waiting for one of her kids to drop everything and devote themselves to taking care of her.  She has been waiting since she became a widow in 1989.  The other children have made it absolutely clear that they won't play, so that leaves me.  I won't bore you with the whole long story, but it is a daily struggle--how much contact to have, what to say, how much money to contribute to her support, whether to try to get my sisters and brother to pull their weight, etc.  I read articles now and then about how difficult it is to get elderly parents to admit that they can no longer maintain total independence.  I have to laugh.  My parent is throwing independence away with both hands!

I only say this to give you some idea where I'm coming from--which is, of course, a different place from where you're coming from.  Your dad sounds like a real piece of work, someone you absolutely have to keep your distance from, even if you choose to have contact.  Personally, I don't generally believe in cutting one's parents out of one's life unless they do something concrete and unforgivable.  It's not that I hold the commandment to honor my father and mother so dear.  But I have seen a few people cut off contact only to be defined by having cut off contact and dealing with the guilt that ensues.  Their lives become about their parents, even though that is exactly what they did not intend.

I believe that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a valid diagnosis, but a rare one.  The true NPD is rather like the true sociopath, I think, someone missing the ability to connect with people beyond the realm of manipiulation and self-gratification.  Fortunately, few of us have to deal with those monsters.  But many of us have had to deal with severe narcissistic tendencies in people we love and who are supposed to love us.  It's very, very hard.  All I can say is that it helps to concentrate on the small space in which connection is possible, the very few things we may share and find pleasure in with the other person.  With parents, that may be a particular activity, event, or memory.  With spouses (or, more generally I would think, ex-spouses), I would imagine that only children could provide that connection, and I imagine that even for their sake it is extraordinarily difficult to achieve.  But if you must, or choose to, deal with the person, I believe in trying.  If nothing else, that is an antidote to hate.

I don't have a whole lot to say that would be useful, but I just wanted to thank you for your post, which resonated with me, and to let you know that yes, there are others who question the label.  But in the end, I think all we can do is protect ourselves without turning ourselves into what we're running from.  Bitterness, hurt, anger, and fear can form an impenetrable armor.  Behind it, we are safe, but we're not really alive.

I wish you the best.

daylily

[OR]

Beautiful: Thanks for telling me you could relate to this difficult time with an N, it had lots of pain for me too.
out of the 27 years it was 12 years total, 3 x 4 years each on disability.
Each time I would try and keep up hope that we would recover and move on. This last time he got a large settlement, I didn't know about it, he wanted to leave both our daughter and me. He will be on SSI for the rest of his life, but money is shinny and his N -MONKEY Brain wants it all for himself.

The dreams appear short lived with an N, not what anyone imagined when the marriage took place.
While your H/my H needed you to nurse him back to health expecting after he got better, you wanted  to continue on with life, having children and being happy. He got better, looking for excuses to keep you away from your dream.
The N will mirror all your dreams, want the same things you want.You fall in the trap, trying to believe you both still have the same dreams only to be dissapointed over and over.

I had to wait 15 years to have a child, it was one health issue with him after another and excuses year after year.

You helped him while he was hurting, I hope you get to keep the house for putting up with his BS.
I wish you peace about this Divorce, just be honest with your friends about the relationship.
You married a man who was not honest with you and changed plans on you. You are already going through enough pain, try not to misplace the shame of divorce onto yourself.
Have a celebration that the nightmare is ending, without years of misery with someone who has emotional problems.  

I know you must be so sad, I know the dreams feel like they are slipping away for a child. Count yourself lucky. The bad thing would have been having a child with him. Some of the other posters here will make you happy you will not be dealing with child custody. There are women who have children later than 42, don't give up your hope for a family.

There are so many dreams that just never happened with my H.
He continues to sense the things I want and would love in my life, but wants to poison what ever it is.
They do get worse with age and as our 12 yr old is getting older, he has little patients with teens.
You are an adult think how the kids must deal with the bad behaviors.  This is just all very, very sad.

The original Poster of this thread tells of his battle with his father. N's fall easily into all types of addictions.

Divorce your H, tell him he's a jerk with problems, it's not you and he needs help.
You did the right thing to let him go, let someone else take care of him.

The same week I left my H, he took our daughters things that we left behind and my stuff too, threw it in the trash. He has his own web site and talks about finding a new girl friend, Its been just 5 mos.
They are quick to show you how little you mean to them.

((((((Hugs)))))))  OR