jealous of the narcissist

[vunil]

Hi, all--

I have been chewing over something for awhile now I wanted to put out there. 

When people post about their relationships with N's that have gone bad, the objective part of me says (in my head, and to them) but.... they were awful!  Why do you like them a bit?  Why do you miss them?

But the truth is I have been involved with very narcissistic souls, sometimes for years.  And it took me forever to get over them. I feel (??) that I am past that trap now but I can't be sure.  The reason I can't be sure is because I don't think I have worked through completely what is going on.

Underneath the:  my family was narcissistic so I didn't grow up knowing what real love looked like stuff, which is true and important, there is something else, I think.  It's not conscious, but I think it's there.  And I see it in many of the posts here, lurking.

I think that, unconsciously, we are a little bit jealous of narcissists.  Just to put more specifics on it-- I was involved with a man who could have been the subject of the song "You're So Vain."  This man always was in the most wonderfully beautiful spots, in the best hotels, experiencing the best whatever.  He demanded the absolute best and always got it.   His house was the prettiest, he drove the best car, etc.  Now, was he always unsatisfied and looking for the next thing?  Absolutely.  Did he make me feel as if I could never relax because if someone better came along he's trade me in. Yep.  Could I recite to you why I am superior to him as a person.  NO question.  But....  he always has relationships-- women throw themselves at him.  He never doubts he is due the best of the best, and he gets it, not just financially, but experientially.  We can all say we are happy with what we have, but the truth is swimming with the dolphins in tropical wherever is great-- and he does stuff like that all the time.  And he is cold as ice-- when he left me he never looked back for 1 minute.  I went into a tailspin for a very long time.  It was harder being me, at least at a particular level.

In a secret way, I am jealous of him.  I think this comes from childhood, from looking at our abusers and wanting to be them instead of us.  Why wouldn't we?  Being the one in charge looks pretty good when you are the one being abused.  I think that this lurks subconsciously in our minds and what we end up with is this infatuation with N types.  They have this thing we secretly wanted in childhood.

I have been involved with very N men, classic N types, but for every one I have been involved with I have been infatuated with 5 others.  And these men were always the best at something, the stars of the show, really tall and commanding and handsome.  REALLY mean, too.  Not a bit nice.  They walked through life having people run out of the woodwork to give them things and they expect it.   It is like I am following behind them, wanting their crumbs.

I know the well-adjusted responses to this, and for years now when an N man has propositioned me  have turned him down (well, most of the time-- when I haven't I have known enough to make it a one-night thing).  I'm not nuts-- I know that there is no -good- reason to be jealous of narcissists, in a spiritual adult enlightened sense.  But it is unconscious.  It may even be evolutionary.  The alpha male (and female) get more stuff.  Everyone wants to be them because they get more stuff-- more sex, more food, more attention, more safety.  They are assholes most of the time but we still want what they have. There is a reason Mick Jagger is so fascinating to so many people even though he is the ultimate N.

Anyway.  Food for thought.  I think that this jealousy may answer a question we ask ourselves a lot here-- why do I miss him/her?  Why do I want to be with him/her?  And recognizing it may keep us from getting involved with these people the next time around.

And I also think the answer to it is to develop genuine confidence and strength that mimics what we are jealous of but that isn't tainted with N.  And maybe to try to get some of what they have that we can approve of and feel good about without becoming like them.

[Stormchild]

Vunil, could part of it be that we are aware that the narcissists who have harmed us

-- have something we lack... as you point out...

-- and in most cases have that something because they somehow took it from us, or deliberately and with malice aforethought prevented us from getting it, or spoiled it for us when they couldn't take it away or divert it?

I don't mean that we are lacking something in the sense of being in any way less than or inferior to anyone.

But most of us here have been hurt terribly, and the narcissists who have hurt us have the appearance of being whole and undamaged, at least to outsiders, while we look battered and bruised. Like everyone here who has had a pathological sibling favored by N or enabling parents... or been despised for being female... or had a beloved pet given away because we loved it and had sadistic bullies instead of parents.

Never mind the gold-digger Ns - male or female - like the one who currently has what poor spyralle lacks, which is a huge wad of cash obtained at her expense. Or longtire's soon to be X. Or mudpuppy's crookedsib. Etc. etc.

Such circumstances could certainly provoke resentment and envy on the part of those who have been exploited and harmed. And you're right, we each have to move beyond this somehow.

Learning to know what really happened to us and not to be ashamed of it could be a start. Because you are soooo right. If we think that Ns have all the 'good stuff' - because they took ours away, or for whatever other reason - then yes we are vulnerable to Ns because we are sure we have to be connected to them in order to have any chance of getting our 'good stuff' back.

I sound like a broken record... sorry... the zeal of the convert, maybe.

But honestly it does seem as though once we are able to see whatever harm one or more Ns has done to us, without feeling shame over it - as though it were somehow our fault! - something almost magic seems to happen... we start to get good stuff back, and we don't need to be connected to the N to do it, we don't need an apology or direct restitution, we don't have to recover the exact precise 'good stuff' they took from us. It's as though we somehow become able to grow more for ourselves, in ourselves, all by ourselves. It may be different, but it's still good stuff.

Someone here probably knows what I'm trying to explain. There must be a term for this, I just don't know it. Maybe Brigid knows, this sounds like it might be something like what she's been doing via therapy.

I just had this really strong mental image... of Ns playing a mean little game of 'keep away' with all of us here. You know the 'keep away' game, right? The schoolyard bully game where several bullies take something from you and keep tossing it back and forth among themselves while you run yourself ragged trying to get it back from them? Or one bully just takes it and holds it out of your reach, or throws it up onto a roof, etc. So instead of it being a prized book, or scarf, or our gloves or lunch money, it's the love we should have from our mother or father, or our dear pet, or any acknowledgement of our worth. Trying to get that stuff back from them is perfectly reasonable behavior, and it'll use us up and burn us out.

Yeah. The concept has some possibilities, I think.

Added on edit - I think what I'm talking about has to do with something called 'repetition compulsion' - trying the same thing over and over in a desperate effort to make it work out right, for once. Which would include trying to get our good stuff back from any available N. There is definitely a 'compulsive' element to being attracted by them.

[longtire]

Sister vunil, 
I have been wondering something similar recently.  If you define happiness as getting what you want, then aren't people with NPD almost always happy because they get what they want?  They don't want intimacy, sharing, or to actually have to work on their end of a relationship, so they just don't.  They don't want those things so they don't miss them from their lives.  They want attention, status, adoration, all their needs met without having to life a finger.  When they find other people willing to treat them that way, then they are happy because they are getting EXACTLY what they want.  Why other people treat them this way without seeing through to the hollow core is beyond me....

Of course someone with NPD will never feel simple happiness or love or belonging.  They will never have a spritual life or relationship with God.  They will never take pleasure in a job well done, or a life earned through suffering and growth, or lifelong relationships.

I would not ever give one these things up to trade places, but it doesn't seem "fair" (no such thing, I know).  It doesn't seem like most people with NPD or N traits are unhappy.  In some ways, their separation from reality may actually make them happier.  Maybe this is why treating NPD and BoPD, etc. is so hard.  "Why should I change when I'm happy with all my desires met?"  Talk about a honey trap.

Anyway I have just been musing about this.  Don't even take this as condoning NPD or wishing I were there.  I believe to my core that NPD and related problems are Evil. 

[Plucky]

Hi Vunil,
this is interesting.  I agree that there is some envy there.  The life of an N can look so simple.  So 'getting what you want'.  So oblivious.  I would generalise to success in business.  I worked in business for years and years.  And the biggest a-holes get ahead.  The caring, hardworking people get used and left behind.  

At one point I reached a fork in the road.  I saw then that in order to be really successful I would have to do some things I found repugnant.  I thought about whether I wanted to go that route.  I thought seriously.  In the end it was my religious training which turned the tide.   I knew I would become a different person if I continued with these actions.  (I did actually do one kind of slimy thing.  But he deserved it!)  So I was not as successful as I could have been, had I been willing to be a complete snake, which actually I considered myself capable of.   I had enough anger inside to be a real jerk if necessary.  I could definitely think that way.  But I digress.

My thinking underwent a change when I had children.   I don't understand people who can let their children suffer, because they are being forced into a mould of some kind to benefit the parents.   If you look into your child's face and they are begging to be themselves, even if it does not fit what you thought they ought to be, how can you still cling to the notions that money and status are important?   You then decide, or not, that you want happiness for your children.  Real, true happiness, and if you haven't already found out what that is exactly or how to get there, you start a massive research to learn.   I could care less if my son becomes a doctor or makes lots of money.  I want him to wake up each day loving his life and being able to love others, to attract and choose others to love who can love and treasure him for the lovely miracle he is.    I just feel I have no time to bother with what is trendy or cool or hot or rich.  I don't see the benefit anymore.  If I teach my son that is what is important, I will fail him.

I want for me and for them, the kind of happiness an N will never have.  If it means giving up on all that excess stuff, ok.  I  do have a twinge now and again.  I would love to be able to travel 1st class.  I would love to get an army of workers in here to redo the house pronto.   I see my former classmates go on to wealth and power, while I spend my days making snacks and cleaning the rabbit cage.   But more and more and little by little, that is fading away.

Vunil, you are about to have your first child.   That is so so wonderful.  You might have noticed during pregnancy that you are not really controlling things.   That is some preparation for the future.  I know you did not ask for advice, but here it is anyway.  Just go with the flow.     Just live for your baby.  Don't worry about anything else.  The whole rhythm of your life will now revolve around a tiny, fascinating person.  Just go with it.  It will change soon enough.  

OK. I think I have deviated from the topic some.  Sorry!

Plucky  


 

[Brigid]

Vunil,
I think you make a very valid point about the tendency toward jealosy and envy--at least while we are still recovering from the abuse, neglect, abandonment, or whatever behaviors our n relationships exhibited.  I admit to feeling this way for a long time after my xh left, but I think I am finally beyond it.  I think I have finally restructured my view of "success" and as a result, am seeing life in a whole new light.  I had the big, beautiful home, country club membership, a husband with a successful career--all the trappings of upper middle class America and I really thought I was happy as a result.  Now that I have had to rebuild from the ground up, those things no longer hold value for me.  Mind you, I am comfortable, have a nice home, but my goal now is to simplify, size down and get my priorities in line.     

My children continue to give me a reason to keep my life on track, but they are mostly grown and independent and soon the decisions I make will primarily be for my own sake.  The relationships with my close friends are invaluable, and nurturing those relationships is critical to me now.     

I have absolutely no envy of my xhn and his lifestyle and money.  He will never have the feeling of peace that I have attained and strive to continue.  He will forever be searching for the next fix to make him happy.  He will continue to leave a string of unfinished projects that were exciting for a time, but eventually became boring.  He will never have the true love and respect of his family or friends (if he has any), or a significant other.  He will have younger, needy women following him like puppy dogs for his money and position, but it will all be an illusion of happiness and certainly temporary.

As awful as this whole experience has been, I am actually very grateful for it now.  It has made me appreciate what I do have and not keep striving for more (except I do admit to still having a desire for clothes and shoes, but I'm working on that too  ).  I am all about experiencing life and enjoying the small pleasures and finding reasons to be happy.  Too bad I had to get to 55 before reaching this point, but better late than never.

Hugs,

Brigid

[vunil]

It's funny you gals mention pregnancy and children as an antidote to the jealousy thing.  That is so true!  One of my ex-N boyfriends had a child and could get no pleasure from her-- she just was a lot of work for him that he resented.  Another of my ex-N boyfriends (I have a whole collection!) can't decide whether to marry his long-term girlfriend (is she perfect enough?  what if perfection is around the corner and he misses it?) and she wants to have children-- meanwhile her fertility is ticking away while she waits for him.  I feel awful for her.  He contacted me about 6 months ago and we chatted and I told him a little bit firmly that his girlfriend really might be giving up the chance at having children, and it is more critical than he seems to realize that he act.  As far as I know, he still hasn't.

He also has cut me off from contact!  The truth is so annoying, I guess.

But I have been thinking-- this joy I feel, he will never feel it.  I love this critter inside of me unconditionally, not because she is a part of me and not for how she will turn out.  And I now know what that feels like, that it's the commitment where the love lies, not in choosing the perfect person to annoint.  Wow, what a revelation.  So when I think about meeting a man and getting married at some point, I think of the pleasure of a joint commitment with someone else who can do that.  It has to do with what we build together not with how fabulous he or I are apart from each other. 

Before I broke up with my ex my mom called me and told me she had met a man at a party who bragged incessantly about his children and what rank they were in everything-- top softball player!  second in their tuba class!  97% percentile on the whatever test!  She told me she was afraid if I had children with (my ex) he would be the same way.  She was right.  Mom has her perceptive moments. 

And parenting has nothing to do with N-- it is the opposite.  At least the way I plan to do it

It's a little tough for those of us who didn't get that in our childhood, but on the other hand I can aim for what I wish I had had, what I knew instinctively I should be getting.  It is VERY liberating.

Oh, one more thing-- pregnancy is liberating, too!  Because no one is "fabulous" when they are puffed up like a balloon, either sick or puffy or both all the time.  Well, some super model probably is or Gweneth Paltrow, but I'm not.  How nice to have my body absolutely and only aimed at making this baby, not at anything else, with no chance of anyone looking at me and thinking I am particularly cute or sexy or interesting or fashionable or anything shallowly flattering.  I'm just a dancing pig with my pants falling down all the time [I need suspenders, I guess] and HUGE ankles

thanks, y'all.  I love this board.

[bunny]

I also think the answer to it is to develop genuine confidence and strength that mimics what we are jealous of but that isn't tainted with N.

I agree 100%.

bunny

[Chicken]

I think the jealousy is there alright. 
It's definately an aspect of it. 
I am furious that I gave him my power, I could really do with having it back now, but it takes a while to grow back.
I am jealous because he is so self-assured and I am not.
It must be an amazing feeling to be so sure of yourself. 

[Plucky]

If you define happiness as getting what you want, then aren't people with NPD almost always happy because they get what they want?

Ns are not getting what they want.  They are getting what they demand.  What they want from others is impossible to get from someone else.

a pressed-for-time
Plucky

[longtire]

If you define happiness as getting what you want, then aren't people with NPD almost always happy because they get what they want?

Ns are not getting what they want.  They are getting what they demand.  What they want from others is impossible to get from someone else.

a pressed-for-time
Plucky

Wise Plucky, that clears it up for me!  You're right, they demand things from others that only they can provide themselves.  I knew I didn't want to ever really have NPD or similar, but I couldn't really explain why it feels wrong.

[Plucky]

Thanks Longtire for calling me wise!  I will accept that compliment and wear it proudly until my next flub.
I only know that my N mom is not happy and never will be.  She hates and envies people who are happy.  She tries to take credit for making people around her happy (that'll be the day). 
I dangerously feel hate for my mother seeping out.  I hope I can deal with it properly.  Can I just let it out?
I HATE HER HATE HER HATE HER!!!!!!!
Ahhhhh............
Plucky

[spyralle]

I keep trying to post on this thread but I have been struggling because i can't decide if I'm jealous or not.  So I am afraid I am going to have to thrash this out on paper.   

I am jealous of the fact that:

He is debt free
Is happy (I think)
Has the ability to avoid pain

I am not jealous of the fact that:

He is empty
He is shallow
He has no morals
he is not able to understand the true meaning of love
He will never have the love bond with his children that I have with my daughter
He cannot laugh until he cries
he cannot cry until he laughs
He is always aware of who is watching him
He does not have a deep faith in anything apart from his footabll team
He does not have any firends to whom he can turn and really talk to and share his pain...if he ever had any of course

i am sure I could go on forever.  so i guess that the things I am jealous of....and boy am I jealous of them are nothing without all the other stuff to go with them...

Spyralle x

[Brigid]

spyralle,

You said:

Is happy (I think)

Followed by all the things he doesn't have.  Is one possible without the other?  I suppose happiness is relative, but true happiness is not.  I guarantee you that he is not truly happy--not now, not ever!!  There is NOTHING to be jealous of imo, except that he is not feeling pain and you are.  He is not FEELING anything.  Feeling the pain is awful, but it's better than feeling nothing at all.  The pain will eventually go away, but the ability to feel will remain.  Being able to feel is a really beautiful thing. 

Brigid

[Plucky]

I am jealous of the fact that:

He is debt free
Is happy (I think)
Has the ability to avoid pain

Hi Spyralle,
I would just like to poke some holes in this.
He is debt free because he stole from you (am I mixing you up with someone else?)so he is not really debt free, now is he?
He is not happy.  How can he be?
Maybe he feels no pain, but how can life be complete without the ability to feel pain?  without compassion?  Hwo can he feel any joy?
Plucky

[miss piggy]

You know, I tried to avoid this thread because I didn't want to admit my jealousy, but yeah, I am definitely jealous of Ns.  The alpha females and their gaggle of friends.  How do they do it?  I would ask myself.  and why are all these people attracted to them despite their meanness? 

I would comfort myself in knowing that many "friends" of Ns don't like the N, but are afraid of them.  But that really didn't make me feel any better, sitting over by the wall by myself.

I would comfort myself in knowing how empty they are and angry, etc.  But still, the friends.  The glory.

I would comfort myself saying "every dog has their day".  But I may not get to witness it for my own selfish gratification. 

I have children and when they were smaller, I sat myself down and really really wondered if I was messing up by not telling them to "get in there and get YOURS!  Be selfish, be mean. grab grab grab.  Why not?  That's the real key to success, for crying out loud."  "It's not wrong until you get caught".  etc.  Little Enron ceo's.

I just don't know.  It's disheartening, really.  The only thing that makes sense of it all to me is the pack behavior of wolves.  Establish your level of dominance.  My Nfather is slinking off into the woods to die.  He absolutely cannot deal with anything less than alpha male status.  Now he is omega wolf.  This dog is having his day (I'm both glad and sad).

MP