Trying to Understand N's Victims

[miss piggy]

Hello,

I don't know what I would do if I had to recover from sexual abuse as well as emotional.  My dad is a weirdo for sure, and my mother engaged in some under the rader emotional incest with my brother, but that is just the sickest thing anyone can do to their own child.  You are all in my prayers.

Amethyst, thank you for bringing up Michael Jackson trial.  The whole thing was just an ugly mess.  I had never seen such blatent pimping of kids (which is what I also think of the Jon Benet Ramsey parents that were mentioned somewhere.)  I include the "character witness" parents as well as the victims' parents.  I thought it was so interesting how MJ went from in-control celebrity, pointing and directing everyone around the metal detector during the hearings, to poor victim, as quick as he could jump in his jammies.

What I wished I had heard from someone is that, whether or not overt sexual abuse was happening, it was clear that he needed young boys for his own emotional gratification.  Did anyone hear this mentioned? 

Another interesting thing was when the verdict came in "not guilty" and the jurors couldn't look at him.  I interpreted that to mean, OK, this case wasn't proved but we think you are an abuser.  And the J family immediately declares that the jury found him "innocent of all charges."  I also believe that the DA did the best he could regarding MJ.  We don't want to convict such glittering stars.  Even though the accuser's family had such low credibility, he brought it to trial anyway as the only way to expose everything going on and warn the community in a big way.  (Interesting how Mesereau demanded that everyone refer to the boy as the accuser instead of victim...)  Language is so powerful.  Even if justice can't be obtained in the courtroom, these creeps need to be exposed.

I am positively addicted to TV trials esp with ones that feature heavy entitlement aspects.  I will admit to feeling intense satisfaction seeing those above-the-law types brought down.

Oh and I like Oprah and think she is an N as well as an abuse survivor.  I won't even look at her magazine though because of the obvious over the top vanity of putting herself on the cover every issue.  Ugh!  But perhaps she is dodging a whole political catfight about who goes on the cover etc.  But there are other ways around it.  She's pretty savvy and I admire that.

Please, if anyone finds articles about emotional incest and its effects on the whole family, please let me know.  This is my second biggest issue is how I felt about this dynamic existing in my family.  I absolutely HATE it.  Thanks.

  MP

[vunil]

fits of crying alone, for no obvious reason.

Oh, Tiffany, I think there were some obvious reasons!  I am so sorry about what you went through.

I was sexually abused (hey!  another one!  ceemee you are right it is ridiculously common) but it was only once, not incest, and was by a woman (I am straight).  I think all of those aspects helped a lot in making it less of an issue-- not that it isn't an issue, but it is less of one.  I think when incest is involved, and the abuse is repeated, the event has repercussions way beyond what any of us can imagine, even people who have been through it.  I really salute anyone who has survived that.  I am angry that so many women (and men) have had to survive it.

I had the same feelings about the Michael Jackson trial that you guys had-- I was not sure there was enough evidence to convict him, but I HATE him and I am sure he is guilty.  I saw a magazine with pictures of all of the boys (some of them now teenagers and young men) who testified, either for him or against him.  With few exceptions, they all looked exactly the same.  He even has a type!  It is so obvious he is guilty.  Oh, he "loves children" but magically only boy children of a certain age who look exactly the same as each other.  And these boys' parents sold them to him-- the parents ought to be ashamed, too.  I was glad he had to endure a trial and I hope there are others, too.  I can't even listen to his music any more.

Hey, just made the link between my situation and him.  Duh.  Isn't that funny how obvious links can be and we never make them.  Most of the boys (maybe all of them, if I remember correctly) that he molested (or probably did) are not gay.  So his situation is very similar to the one I went through.  Hmmmm....  not sure the deeper meaning but it does explain why I want him humiliated and put away.  And why I hate those parents so much.

[miss piggy]

Hi Marta,

Well, I confess I felt a little panicked at your suggestion.  Are you sure you want to get me started?  But here it is in a nutshell.  Maybe I am misusing the term "emotional incest", maybe it was only favoritism, but it was a very strong preference that my mother had for my brother while we were growing up.  And BTW he acts just like my father.  So at least she is consistent in her choice of men.  Whenever my brother and I had a row or disagreement, she always took his side.  She would even send me to my room while he gloated.  I would scream bloody murder at the injustice.  Which just made her more mad at me.  Funny, when the men scream, they get results. 

At times, my brother would fight her battles for her with my father.  Maybe this is some kind of Oedipal complex of trying to kill off dad to get mom for himself.  When brother got older, they would sometimes even flirt with each other which really made me puke.  My H noticed it too.  He puked too.  When we were teenagers, father and brother were constantly battling and I mean battling each other.  It was very common for me to walk in the front door to loud shouting matches and one of them stalking out of whatever room they were in.  I would freeze and then go to my room (the one given to me because I'm spoiled--in brother's eyes I should be naked in a doghouse).  My hands are cold as I write this.  My mother will give stuff freely to my brother that she had already promised to my family.  I can't figure out if it's because she really favors him or because he would roar if she gave anything of substance to me.  If I uttered the slightest unflattering criticism of mother (what teenage daughter doesn't?) my brother would tattle and then mother would heap her own special brand of passive aggressiveness on me.  Example: I mention I don't like a certain color to my brother, which is her favorite color, and next thing I know I am receiving clothes in that color.  She would laugh a very mean laugh. 

What really gets me too, now that the father abuse is on the table, is how brother thinks he is the most loved by mother and the most hated by father.  He's special!  It all happened, but only to him!  Grrrr.

All of this has taught me "Don't ask for anything, don't expect any support, don't say what you think, don't inconvenience me, I shouldn't have to tell you, you should know I expect you to serve me and you are otherwise disqualified to be in this family."  Buy hey, they're generous!  On their terms. 

A great moment was when my brother was heaping criticism on me for not having a summer job.  I had no transportation and for crying out loud I wasn't supposed to ask.  I calmly looked at him and said "if I get a job, how will I get there?"  He just stared at me.  "Will you drive me?"  That was the end of that abuse episode.  Score one for me.  I remember feeling blown away that my mother tacitly backed me up (because she's traditional and doesn't work outside the home).  The fact that I was surprised is consistent with my previous lack of support.  This is why it's so memorable.

Oh wait there's more: this is one of mother's special surprise treats.  My father likes to rage whenever any of us do something silly like make decisions for ourselves.  Psychologists call it practicing individuation.  Ironically my father would tell us to "be yourself".  Isn't that nice?  So whenever any of us lost our senses and took him at his word, rage rage rage.  My mother wouldn't really be upset about whatever it was that we did, hmm can't think of examples right now, but she come down on us like a ton of bricks (this is the surprise) because he would express his dissatisfaction with us to her (of course probably making her feel like it was her fault or something).  but her attitude is like "what are you thinking, making him so mad?  You know what it like to live with that, so cut it out so I don't have a problem on my hands!  Get back in line.  Stop making my life difficult."

Amazingly, now that we're all out of the house, my relationships are much better with the both of them although I need still to manage the communication I have with both them and of course the N.  They still have their special moments.  I wonder how his wife feels about that.  And this brother was the only one who protected me against the neighborhood bullies (we had quite a number on our street).  So it's all kind of confusing at times.  To this day, the sense of protection I get from my H is one of the things I value most about our relationship.  Not in a "I get to beat her up, not you" sort of way, but a "I'm going to take care of you and keep you safe" way.  This is very important to me even though I think I'm pretty self-reliant.

There is more humiliating stuff from my father, but I am not ready to post that.  the only person i have ever told is my H.  I don't write this to tantalize you, but to explain the depth of my feelings.

Okee dokee, there you go.  MP

PS Marta, I've read a lot of your posts and you and Amethyst seem to have stories that overlap mine quite a bit.  Well, I hope this helps.  It's all rather crappy, but I look forward to getting it out of my system some day.  MP

[amethyst]

Hi Marta,

Well, I confess I felt a little panicked at your suggestion.  Are you sure you want to get me started?  But here it is in a nutshell.  Maybe I am misusing the term "emotional incest", maybe it was only favoritism, but it was a very strong preference that my mother had for my brother while we were growing up.  And BTW he acts just like my father.  So at least she is consistent in her choice of men.  Whenever my brother and I had a row or disagreement, she always took his side.  She would even send me to my room while he gloated.  I would scream bloody murder at the injustice.  Which just made her more mad at me.  Funny, when the men scream, they get results. 

At times, my brother would fight her battles for her with my father.  Maybe this is some kind of Oedipal complex of trying to kill off dad to get mom for himself.  When brother got older, they would sometimes even flirt with each other which really made me puke.  My H noticed it too.  He puked too.  When we were teenagers, father and brother were constantly battling and I mean battling each other.  It was very common for me to walk in the front door to loud shouting matches and one of them stalking out of whatever room they were in.  I would freeze and then go to my room (the one given to me because I'm spoiled--in brother's eyes I should be naked in a doghouse).  My hands are cold as I write this.  My mother will give stuff freely to my brother that she had already promised to my family.  I can't figure out if it's because she really favors him or because he would roar if she gave anything of substance to me.  If I uttered the slightest unflattering criticism of mother (what teenage daughter doesn't?) my brother would tattle and then mother would heap her own special brand of passive aggressiveness on me.  Example: I mention I don't like a certain color to my brother, which is her favorite color, and next thing I know I am receiving clothes in that color.  She would laugh a very mean laugh. 

What really gets me too, now that the father abuse is on the table, is how brother thinks he is the most loved by mother and the most hated by father.  He's special!  It all happened, but only to him!  Grrrr.

All of this has taught me "Don't ask for anything, don't expect any support, don't say what you think, don't inconvenience me, I shouldn't have to tell you, you should know I expect you to serve me and you are otherwise disqualified to be in this family."  Buy hey, they're generous!  On their terms. 

A great moment was when my brother was heaping criticism on me for not having a summer job.  I had no transportation and for crying out loud I wasn't supposed to ask.  I calmly looked at him and said "if I get a job, how will I get there?"  He just stared at me.  "Will you drive me?"  That was the end of that abuse episode.  Score one for me.  I remember feeling blown away that my mother tacitly backed me up (because she's traditional and doesn't work outside the home).  The fact that I was surprised is consistent with my previous lack of support.  This is why it's so memorable.

Oh wait there's more: this is one of mother's special surprise treats.  My father likes to rage whenever any of us do something silly like make decisions for ourselves.  Psychologists call it practicing individuation.  Ironically my father would tell us to "be yourself".  Isn't that nice?  So whenever any of us lost our senses and took him at his word, rage rage rage.  My mother wouldn't really be upset about whatever it was that we did, hmm can't think of examples right now, but she come down on us like a ton of bricks (this is the surprise) because he would express his dissatisfaction with us to her (of course probably making her feel like it was her fault or something).  but her attitude is like "what are you thinking, making him so mad?  You know what it like to live with that, so cut it out so I don't have a problem on my hands!  Get back in line.  Stop making my life difficult."

Amazingly, now that we're all out of the house, my relationships are much better with the both of them although I need still to manage the communication I have with both them and of course the N.  They still have their special moments.  I wonder how his wife feels about that.  And this brother was the only one who protected me against the neighborhood bullies (we had quite a number on our street).  So it's all kind of confusing at times.  To this day, the sense of protection I get from my H is one of the things I value most about our relationship.  Not in a "I get to beat her up, not you" sort of way, but a "I'm going to take care of you and keep you safe" way.  This is very important to me even though I think I'm pretty self-reliant.

There is more humiliating stuff from my father, but I am not ready to post that.  the only person i have ever told is my H.  I don't write this to tantalize you, but to explain the depth of my feelings.

Okee dokee, there you go.  MP

PS Marta, I've read a lot of your posts and you and Amethyst seem to have stories that overlap mine quite a bit.  Well, I hope this helps.  It's all rather crappy, but I look forward to getting it out of my system some day.  MP

(((Hi Miss Piggy)))

That flirtatious behavior between mom and brother is covert incest. My ex mother in law used to do it with my ex husband. It was sickening. My mother in law liked to try on my clothes and model them for the men in the family whenever we came to visit. One time she even stole one of my swimming suits and modeled it when we were in Florida.     I am positive that she molested my ex, although he had no memory of it. Even though he knew cognitively and stated that his mother was incestuous, he still molested our daughter. Like I said,"Untreated incest is the "gift" that keeps on giving" generation after generation after generation.

My mother liked to dance to that raunch old song,"The Stripper" in a very suggestive way in front of the men folks. It was really disgusting. Yuck!! Covert incest. Even though the dance was primarily directed at my brother, followed by my father, since I had to witness it, she was victimising me too.

Because you were treated to a display of covert incest, you are also a victim. The feeling of yuckiness, or wanting to puke, is the tip-off that you have been wronged. If the behavior were normal, and not sexually suggestive, you wouldn't feel sick. 

[CeeMee]

Marta wrote:  sorry if this discussion feels like having your thread hijacked, then we'll move somewhere else.

No need to move it elsewhere.  This is great discussion.  I have learned so much from all the posts on the board.  Please continue on this thread if you want.  This is all very valuable to many regardless of who started the post. 

I have gone back and removed my personal posts and edited the intial post that started the thread though as I am now moving on to another board that addresses the concept of the "Drama Triangle."  I am fascinated by this concept and see that it is very applicable to the dynamics of my own family.  I expect to continue my research in that area.

I'll be checking back to hear about your journeys.  It has been a pleasure.  This is without a doubt the BEST board that I have been on.  I have been on boards that DO NOT allow private messaging.  I have been on boards that DON'T allow you to remove posts.  This is the safest and most genuine board I have participated on.

Dr Grossman, thank you for creating this safe place and ladies thank you for your wisdom.

CeeMee

[Portia]

CeeMee:
Please continue on this thread if you want.  This is all very valuable to many regardless of who started the post. 
Seriously seconded.

(((CeeMee))) take care of yourself, hope to read you again sometime