Trying to Understand N's Victims

[CeeMee]

Hi folks,

Thanks for letting me read your very personal posts and participate in some of your discussions. I must tell you that in the short while that I have been here, I have made some breakthroughs.

1)  I've come to the conclusion that although I am not a full fledged N, I do have N tendencies that are sometimes healthy and sometimes unhealthy.  I accept that and am prepared more than ever to address those tendencies when they are causing harm to others.

2)  I'm also coming to the realization that there are a whole bunch of people in the world and on this board who have suffered greatly at the hands of N (and those with tendencies).  This is not an acute pain but a deep pain that is difficult to heal from.  There are people in the world and in my family who are tougher than I and those who are more fragile than I.  My mantra of "Just get over it!" is not a cure all and can even be harmful depending on the individual.


My questions to you on this board who have suffered at the hands of N are the following:

Am I wrong to think she needs my help? (maybe that's the N tendency in me that always thinks I'm needed to save my younger siblings).  Does this situation sound healthy to you?
(Deleted)
If she is in danger, what can I do to reach and help her?  I realize my tough love attitude was wrong and I am prepared to take another approach.

(deleted)
If any of this makes sense to any of you and you have thoughts, I AM OPEN and RECEPTIVE.  I am not put off by directness either.  Let me know what you think.

[Sela]

Hi Ceemee:

I've come to the conclusion that although I am not a full fledged N, I do have N tendencies that are sometimes healthy and sometimes unhealthy.

Welcome to the club.

My mantra of "Just get over it!" is not a cure all and can even be harmful depending on the individual

.

Being straight with you here......this is not any kind of cure.  It's inconsiderate and unfeeling.  So glad that you have recognized that it can be harmful.  My bet is...it almost always is harmful to whoever it is said to, unless that person isn't listening.

I am glad to hear that you have made peace with your mother.  I bet that has taken some very serious soul searching.  And your concern for your younger sister is very loving.

I have reacted to my sisters present state by distancing from her as well letting her find her way and defending my mother as necessary.

Did you distance in an attempt to allow her to be an adult, or as a way to avoid hearing about her feelings about the abuse she believes she sustained?

In defending your mother, did you deny the abuse?

You may not have realized this contribution to her pain?

Am I wrong to think she needs my help?

It is never wrong to think.  For the record, I think she needs your help but.....what that help is....may be arguable.

Does this situation sound healthy to you?

Between her and the pastor/wife?  Sounds like a person was lost who went seeking surrogate parents and found them.  Trying to heal the pain of the past by these relationships?  Are they appropriate people for this role?  Scares the begonias outta me.

They could be honest, caring, generous, giving people who have taken her under their wing and truly wish to help her......
or.....they could have nasty motives that only our worst nightmares might depict accurately?

If she is in danger,

Only your hair dresser knows for sure....but......it certainly smells bad doesn't it?

... what can I do to reach and help her?

Can you let her know first and foremost how much you care about her?  If not in person than possibly in writing?  Without judgement on her current behaviour, or advice, or even voicing your concerns?  Just communicating that you are here for her, love her, think of her often, wish you could spend time together, would like to listen if she wants to talk about anything, miss her etc.

People make their own choices.  It's so very hard to watch someone make what we think are big mistakes, isn't it?  But really....what can be done?  We are only in charge of ourselves.  Trying to convince her that this relationship is screwy will probably only distance her more from you, this time by her choice.  Suggesting anything, before trying to get closer to her and letting her know, possibly over and over, that you care....is probably futile too.  She will need to really trust you before she will ever listen to anything you have to offer, I bet.

Do you take advice from people who distance themselves from you and deny your experiences?

Your honesty in all of this is so admirable.  I wonder if you realize how brave you are?

Hope this helps a little.

  Sela

[dogbit]

My short answer is:  share your journey with her.  I can't remember the poet who wrote about the traveler who while traveling on his path came to a fork in the road.....which path to choose.  Share your journey so she has a choice.  

As for sucking it up and getting on with it...that worked for me for a large part of my life.  It might have continued working if I hadn't married mr. entitlement and by doing so, just re-ignited the same old flames of self-doubt and co-dependency.  So now in my middling years, the palliative effects of sucking it up and getting on with it are not working.  But talking here does help a great deal.  The trouble with trying to be "strong" and getting over the past it is that we now have an an additional problem in our lives:  we are dealing with the seriously disturbed one who has created the conflict in our lives and who can confabulate until the cows come home about how it is "not their fault" plus we have to fix ourselves so we can have a normal life.   Who's going to survive intact?  The seriously disturbed one or the one with the resources to suck it up?  And, I guess the bottom line is why should we have to suck it up....OK,,,,I know ....The proper term is "internalize it".  Sucking it up just has that visceral connotation of what a lot of us have had to do.

The church, or at least the one I went to, showed me what truly compassionite love is.  This is definitely a plus but at the same time it may show us what we have not had with our earthly families.  Sort of like good news, bad news.  Who knows how this revelation may hit us.  Another light bulb moment in my life was when I had a friend in AA.  I have to say he was the best friend I ever could have had at the time because he demonstrated to me the the empowering effect sharing our journeys is.  We don't have to take care of each other by enabling....we take care of ourselves but share our journey so the other person can decide what to do with the best of what they know at the moment with the additional input of another's journey.  In short, take the best and leave the rest.  Also,

One of my kiddos said to me one day as I was descending deep into depression over Mr. Entitlement,  "Oh, Mom....you're being a drama queen."  Praise the Lord I did not have a weapon in my hand.  Later, when my faculties were more on an even keel, I realized that she was only modeling what I had demonstrated for 20+ years, ie., internalize it.  We have since been sharing our journey and are doing better.  These are just my thoughts and experience.    

[miss piggy]

Hello Ceemee,

She will need to really trust you before she will ever listen to anything you have to offer, I bet.

I second this.  

I would also add that sometimes we can have a powerful urge to share our newfound knowledge of (fill in the blank) with whoever we think needs it, regardless of our standing with the person, and regardless of the helpee's perception of their predicament.  

I would say that it would be enough (and a monumental task) to heal your relationship first.  This would take an apology for past hurts and in your words, taking responsibility for your participation in the riff.  You also cannot predict or expect how she will receive these overtures i.e., if she is not receptive and one responds: But you're supposed to accept my apology and welcome me back into your life!  You would have to let go of whatever outcome you think should result from your attempts to re-establish your relationship.  Trust is a very, very difficult thing to regain (ask any betrayed spouse hurt by infidelity.)

I wonder why you defended your abusive mother when your sister was hurting.  I don't get that.  

In short, I would seriously suggest you review your motives before you mess with your sister and her other relationships.   Maybe she doesn't need your help, she just needs you to be real with her.  Sorry if i'm blunt!  Good luck to you.  MP

[mudpuppy]

Hi CeeMee,

Just kind of guessing, but maybe your sister was so hurt by your mother that she not only wants nothing to do with her but she finds your reconciliation and closeness with your mother frightening and perhaps a betrayal. Was your mother worse to your sister than you? If so then your sister may see it as an 'either or' proposition.
She may very reasonably, as many people do, have to cut off contact with your mother to remain functional. Just because you haven't doesn't mean your sister sees things the same way.

In the vein of being direct, are you certain you are looking at your mother clearly, or perhaps through rose colored glasses because you want her to be 'better' than she used to be. Are you absolutely sure you're not getting ensnared in some denial.
I guess the real question is, are you certain your approach is more healthy than your sister's or has she got a better point than you are willing to recognize, especially from her perspective not yours?

If I were her I would not only be very reluctant to have anything to do with your mother, I would be extremely suspicious of any sibling who tried to lure me back into her sphere of influence or who was in it herself.

I don't know the answers to your questions about these people in her church.
As Sela said these people may be saints.
 It sounds as though you are suspicious of them because your sister is attaching to them instead of your family.
 If they treat her better than your family does I'm not sure I see anything wrong with that. I've learned the hard way that blood is NOT thicker than water.I am more attached to many of the people in my church than the members of my family who have treated me wrong. I call people on this board my sisters, because my own abandoned me to fight with my brother and mother on my own.

Depending on how betrayed and abused she was she may very well be happier and healthier with a surrogate mother.
Maybe you could get to know these people if you are concerned they have an ulterior motive.

One last thing, it is possible to forgive someone while refusing to put yourself in a position to be harmed again. Your siblings may forgive your mom more than you think. They might just be living by the adage once bitten twice shy.

mudpup

[Stormchild]

My sister seems worse off today than I've seen her in a long time.  She is in pain.  She has been in the bed depressed for a few days.  Possibly the result of me getting upset with her and totally ignoring her when she came to visit me last week.  I wasn't at my best that day and not able to deal with her.

I love her SO much and worry about her so much that I don't like to be on the outs either.

I am genuinely concerned at the contradiction I see here, between actions and words. Ignoring someone is very unloving, and the combination of unloving actions and loving words will definitely hinder trust and can certainly produce depression in the person who is receiving them.

I'm trying to avoid coming across as shaming - have edited this twice now for that reason. But if there are a lot of actions that go one way while the words go another, there might need to be a lot of thought about why that is, before there are more words.

I hope this is a bit better than my first attempt at articulating it.

[jordanspeeps]

yes, i believe being left having some negative N tendencies are part and parcel to the Nparent experience

i can relate to the child's play and juvenille sexual curiosity issue, it's a very touchy, horrible pun, subject.  some people, such as yourself can rationalize it. but other's like myself, are haunted by it.  for some reason, the younger you are when sexually touched, the more of effect it can have on you.  the idea of being left unsupervised as a young child is unnerving. god forbid, if the child/regressing adult tries to tell someone about the experience and doesn't gain validation for the intense feelings they're left with, it can be quite depressing.  sometimes, we go to extremes attempting to balance the extremes we've seen in our lives.  some people bunjy jump, other's eat incessantly, some overmedicate, some of us go to church.

i, too, am distrustful of churches.  my Nmother and father are both pastors and i was in a church about 90% of the first 18 years of my life. and yes, churches are crawling with Ns (and their wives)!   nonetheless,  it's possible that your sister has found a temporary oasis in the church and is making some important progress in her life.  you shouldn't deny her this.  give her an opportunity to see for herself, if it is in fact true, that these folks mean her no good.  just be a soft place, if she falls.  and remember, no good deed goes unpunished.  it is a possibility that if she listened to you and denied herself the opportunity to attempt finding solace within this congregation, your sister might just turn the venom she has for her mother towards you and for all the trouble, your efforts would not even be appreciated.  i struggled with this with my sister and i've resigned myself to the fact that if she wants a listening ear or some tangible help, i'll be there.  otherwise, she's going to have to live her own life.

i suggest trying pouring your energy onto yourself and deciding for sure, whether or not you've really "gotten over it" yourself.  maybe your desire to connect with your sister is your own desire to emotionally connect with the pain your mother's caused you.  we never really get over it.  we figure ways to cope.  sometimes, i'm standing there washing the dishes, thinking of something arbitrarily sad, and begin crying as if someone just died.  that's my psyche aching.  i acknowledge the emotions and the crappiness, place cucumbers over my eyes for the puffiness, and move on.

the best for you

tiffany

[Marta]

Marta:
You may also be in a fairly rudimentary stages of denial and projection. Why not seek psychotherapy, CeeMee? It sounds to me like you see yourself trapped in a bad situation, and are fishing for a way out. It sounds as though you badly need some compassion yourself.

CeeMee
Psychotherapy sounds interesting.  Have you tried it?  I don't know anyone who has actually used that approach to therapy but I am open.  Everyone needs compassion and I have found much here on this board.  Thanks Marta.  I value your input.

WHAT approach to therapy? You mean you don't know anyone who's used concepts like denial and projection in therapy? Or you don't know if someone turned to therapy to find compassionate environment? Or you don't know if someone turned to therapy to find a way out of a trapped situation? Or you don't know of anyone who turned to therapy to seek help in healing her damaged relationship with her sister whom she loves a lot? What is it that you are saying?

Stormchild
But if there are a lot of actions that go one way while the words go another, there might need to be a lot of thought about why that is, before there are more words.

I hope this is a bit better than my first attempt at articulating it.

Stormchild, you did a fantabulous job of expressing-- not just your own thought but mine too! 

[vunil]

CeeMee-- I think it's really wonderful that you are trying to understand your sister's situation better.  It is obvious you really love her.  I don't have concrete advice, but I do want to send you support in this journey.  I'm guessing the family dynamic favors finding her "weak" and "incapable" and that it is really tough to break out of that, for you and for her. It's funny because in my family I think that I am thought of in the same way as your sister.  The funny part is that I am not at all the weakest and most incapable-- by any measure I can think of the opposite is true.  But I "bought" it for so long that I think I acted that way around them to some extent, or at least didn't fight it when I was around them.  At some subconscious level they needed that from me and I provided it.  It may be useful for your sister to act out what it is like to be in a family and not to play her usual role.  I think it's likely that is what she is doing now with the pastor and his wife.

I guess I disagree with the idea that her situation with them is necessarily scary or bad or unhealthy.  We don't know that.  It may be just what she needs right now.  The act of taking down pictures of her family may have just been a symbolic way of saying "I am not bound by the old expectations any more."  If you express any negativity about her symbolic new family it will likely have really deeper meaning for her than you imagine-- it will mean you are rejecting the idea that she can ever break out of the old patterns, that she does not deserve/warrant a different situation.  It's pretty deep stuff!  It is worth treading lightly through, if not staying out of altogether for now.

You probably have usual roles, too. I agree that therapy might be really usefu for you to figure all of this outl.  I don't think you are N. I think you are put in some sort of older sister role in your family and you are fulfilling that duty.  Part of that duty is defending your mother and trying to be in control of the situation.

When I decided to really address what had gone on in my family I got no support from my siblings. One was appalled at my "rudeness" and tried to force a premature "making up" session with my parents about a week (!) after I had confronted my parents and tried to develop a dialogue (the whole thing fell apart and I told them I needed space for a bit).  She continually tried to take away this space from me by forcing my parents on me, until I told her to stop and she stopped speaking to me for awhile.  The other made clear he didn't believe me.  He suggested that I "get help" and that "every situation has different perspectives to it" and other indications that basically indicated he thought I was nutty.  Both essentially told me to "get over it" in the same way that you did with your sister.  They both said things that made it clear the situation rendered them, in their (defensive) minds, very superior to me. 

It is hard to explain, but part of the way to get through a change is to reject everything that symbolizes your own reluctance to make the change. I wanted to "get over it" or have it not be true, too.  I would have rather blamed myself and stayed in my old role than to really face all of those painful memories.  So in making myself face things I had to reject my siblings-- this was the same, symbolically, as rejecting the old patterns of denial they were voicing.

It is 9 months later and I am on good terms with my siblings and my parents actually have begun to face what we all went through in my childhood, finally.  So there is a way out of this.  But the way out may involve the stage you are in now.

good luck with all of this...  I hope you can find someone professional to help you untangle all of it, because when you combine all of the unconscious and conscious stuff it does sound very complicated!

[vunil]

PS I missed an important detail-- who exactly sexually molested your sister?  What is the story there? 

As someone who was also molested as a child, I have to agree with other posters that if the person I told this to chaulked it up to natural sexual curiousity, I would be very upset.  In fact, this was what led me to distance from my whole family-- unlike friends, my family reacted with utmost lack of emotion and empathy to being told what happened, after it took me many years to get the courage to tell them, and this reaction led me to decide they didn't believe me. It also made me think there was something severely wrong with them, all of them. Their reaction was not, to me, normal.  (I know normal is a loaded word-- but that is what I thought. It was like a lightning strike-- these people are f**ed up!).

In fact, even though everyone is perfectly nice to each other now, I will never feel as close to my family as I could now that they have reacted this way.  I am not sure an apology would help, but it certainly wouldn't hurt-- it would make me less concerned about them, at least, and their capacity to view me in any other way than the one who is always at fault/confused/weak in some way.

I know your situation is not my situation and your sister is not me, but it's tough for me not to project here, the templates are so similar.  Maybe it will help see what she might be feeling?

Oh, one more thought. She may not be unhappy.  She may just be unhappy when she is around your family.  For now.  I hope that is not a hurtful thing to say-- as I said before, I think she is acting something out and it isn't necessarily bad.

[miss piggy]

Hello ceemee and everyone,

Ceemee, your original post has really got me going.  I'll tell you that up front so you know it's me and not you  .

There was a major riff in our family years ago.  The pressure had built to the breaking point and finally burst.  My H and I, after much pain and freaking out, were actually relieved not to have to interact with a few of the players anymore.  We vowed never to interact with them again because people don't change.  The "problem" person has BPD and we could not and do not trust her with our children.  Besides her being a pain in the tush.

However.

We predicted an N leader in the family would want to "unring the bell" in the future even though he led the charge in trying to punish BPD for her outrageous behavior.  He says later he thought he could "fix" the situation.  Nothing was fixed (except the fact that H and I feel liberated).  But the desired outcome was for BPD girl to fall in line.  N and BPD were fighting to see who could write the family "script".

Time passed and sure enough N is hinting and guilting everyone to get back together.  One big happy family.  No thanks.  (I suspect N's motive is to relieve his own guilt through "undoing" and that way he doesn't have to feel responsible.) The reduction of pain in my life is remarkable.  I still have pain from dealing with the aging factor on said N.  But after a couple of years of therapy since this fallout I now know what I'm dealing with, I have support, and I can choose how much, if any, I have to put up with.  I don't have to do anything.  I can choose not to.  The realization that I have the ability to decide and deal with consequences is really empowering.

So, your sister, or anyone you know, can choose to flush their life down the toilet if they want to.  (I share same suspicions re religious leaders--Pat Robertson, ahem?!) Moving from antagonist to rescuer isn't always an improvement.  So what I'm trying to say is perhaps, live your own  life and stay in touch with your sister in the way that does the least harm.  Accept her the way she is.  

Hope my story helps.   I apologize if I sound strident.  I am still sorting out how I feel about my brother and myself, for all of that!  
Miss Piggy

PS just read vunil's post--great description of resisting the usual "roles" assigned to us by parents and siblings.  I am currently resisting stepping in to "rescue" another member of my family who is feeling a lot of pain right now.  I do feel for her and am resisting her unconscious desire for me to rescue her.  It is her problem to deal with and nothing is changed if I become the receptable of her pain.  I can't force her to change her decisions, ie. make her "deal with it".  I am "helping" (?) by not helping.  She needs to find more constructive solutions to relieving her pain that to hand it off to me.  Jeepers, as I am writing this, I realize that one big problem with BPD above was she, too, was trying to hand off her problems and responsibilities to me.    Lightbulb moment happening here, folks.  And as with Vunil, other members want me to fall in line (to avoid being the approached to take this off her hands  ie "you do it, help her, and then I don't have to feel guilty".  Hope this makes sense.  MP

[miss piggy]

Hi Vunil   

I was really sorry to read about your family's response to your ordeal.  We just expect family to care about our pain.  I have not experienced such blatant abuse, but I have experienced that kind of betrayal through invalidation.  "What abuse? what are you talking about?"   Sexual abuse is just so loaded with shame all around, no one wants to acknowledge it.  That means admitting responsibility or at least collusion with the perp to some degree.  I have read that it is extremely common for family members to heap abuse on the abused to shut up.  Much akin to roughing up rape victims in court.  It is f***ed up. 

I have been so idealistic while growing up.  I still try to think the best of people, but now that I'm an adult (?) I have to confront the fact that most people operate under the dynamics of power, not principles.  Sometimes I even think the idealism I grew up hearing was just so much brainwashing to keep me in line. 

OK gotta go.  Take care everyone, MP

[vunil]

Good luck, CeeMee!  I am sure all of this must bring up a lot of issues for you.

I am happy your mother did confront the perpetrator at least-- it's not as if their response ever makes things better-- it's more the symbolism of the confrontation.  I had this feeling when I told me parents that they would try to find the person who molested me-- it would be impossible all these years later and my memory is too fuzzy to be of much help-- I remember the abuse vividly, but not the person's face.  I sort of dreaded the commotion as they confronted folks to try to punish whoever was responsible.  When in fact they didn't even ask me what happened or even express any emotion about it, I was secretly disappointed.  The little girl in me wanted someone to try to do something.  So, I think confrontation can be good.

[vunil]

most people operate under the dynamics of power, not principles

Yes, sigh, I think that's true.  Or maybe better words are fear, insecurity, and need for self-aggrandizement.  Maybe threat goes in there, too. 

I should probably read more about responses to revelations of sexual abuse.  It might help me to know that my story is common.  I think, all these months later, I am just starting to process the response (none!) I got from my family- I realized last night I have not thought about it really at all since it happened, or at least very little.  This list is really helpful to me-- thank you, CeeMee, for broaching this topic.  We never (or hardly ever) get to talk about things from this angle-- how things look/feel to other family members when we try to deal with the N in our family.  It does disrupt the apple cart quite a bit.

[bunny]

Am I wrong to think she needs my help? (maybe that's the N tendency in me that always thinks I'm needed to save my younger siblings).  Does this situation sound healthy to you?

We all need our siblings' help sometimes. The question is, has she asked for your help?



If she is in danger, what can I do to reach and help her?  I realize my tough love attitude was wrong and I am prepared to take another approach.

I don't see her as being in danger.


My sister seems worse off today than I've seen her in a long time.  She is in pain.  She has been in the bed depressed for a few days.  Possibly the result of me getting upset with her and totally ignoring her when she came to visit me last week.  I wasn't at my best that day and not able to deal with her.  Being her big sister, I know that she does not like to be on the outs with me.  I love her SO much and worry about her so much that I don't like to be on the outs either.  I worry a lot about the possible negative consequences, if I am not there to keep an eye on her.  She is my baby sister and because she is so fragile, I always see her that way despite the fact that she is a grown woman.

She may play into the role of baby sister and unconsciously try to evoke strong dependency needs in both of you. Then she will reject your attempts at caregiving. This isn't healthy, so I would start resisting the urges to take care of her like a parent. Be available as an equal sibling - i.e., with the attitude that you are both adults. I admire your willingness to tell her you said some wrong things in your advice to her. If my sister could do that, I'd be incredibly grateful.

bunny