another poem

[amethyst]

((((((((D's Mom))))))) This is so heartbreaking for you and your daughter. All I can say is hang tough and use all the resources you can to try to get her back. I think that social worker might be of great help to you because your parents, being N's, have followed none of the recommendations.

I was in mediation for about a year and a half with my ex, who had been abusive to me, which you know. The mediator was a child social worker. During the process, I told the ex that I did not want my daughter living with him every other week because of the molestation. I said that it just about killed me that he got any visitation at all, and how was I to know that he wasn't continuing the molestation, which I believed was ongoing. At that point, the ex said,"It only happened once." He made an admission in front of the social worker! In the world we are supposed to live in, that social worker should have aborted the mediation process, picked up the phone, called CPS and the police. Instead, she tried to smooth it over and wouldn't deal with it at all. She assured me that my ex seemed to be remorseful (total bs) and that she was sure he wouldn't do it again. Rolling Eyes I decided that she was a very sick puppy, totally codependent and totally cowed my my ex's overbearing and manipulative manner. Later on, a couple weeks later, my ex bragged to me that the social worker was a close friend of the woman he was dating at the time. I confronted her about that in the mediation and she said,"What does that have to do with anything? I can be objective." I called her superviser and got no support. I dragged out the mediation as long as I could, trying to buy time,  but eventually my daughter ended up living with my ex every other week. Of course we know now that the ex was having a field-day molesting her.

That arrangement only lasted a year because my d's behavior deteriorated so much during that time that I finally forced a confrontation and insisted that she either live full-time with me or with him. That was the biggest risk I have ever taken in my life. I was pretty sure that my ex would not want her full-time. As soon as he got joint custody, he started complaining about how much work she was and how much it cost to take care of her. Twisted Evil He told me,"It's tough being a single parent. You're lucky you're married."...completely forgetting that I had been a single parent for almost six years.
 
Before I made that call, I decided the only reason he wanted the joint custody was revenge and to keep me tied to him
in a very sick way. He had recently remarried and I felt that there might be a chance that he was getting enough supply from the new wife that he would be willing to let our d go. It could have gone the other way, but something had to be
done. Luckily, I was right.

Even after d came back, she was still unwilling to come forward and say that her dad was molesting her. Ex still was seeing my d every other weekend.  I believe part of the reason is that my d really liked her step-mother, whom I like too, and did not want to rock the boat. Step-mom is a decent gal,  however, very codependent on the ex, which of course is the only kind of person my ex would marry.  I think the step-mom, who is still married to the ex, has to know that sexual abuse had occurred in the past, but is in deep denial. Even though the abuse was ongoing after stepmom entered the picture, it didn't happen while she was around. Stepmom is an attorney and was out of town alot. There was also a step-sister, five years older, that d absolutely worshipped. She formed an instant fantasy bond with stepsis, constantly referring to her as "my sister." I think as long as my d was little and cute and adoring, stepsis really ate it up.

I was not worried about the ex molesting stepsis. Ex is very good at choosing and exploiting his victims and the stepsis was too old and too savvy for him; stepsis is an N herself, rather hostile, and I am positive my ex only messes with codependents. (Had there been younger kids, I would have screamed to high heaven, slander and libel be damned.)  Ex also knows what side his bread is buttered on; his attorney wife is wealthy and I don't think he would have been willing to screw that up. Another part of the equation was that my daughter was catapulted into a very wealthy family, and they definitely held out lots of goodies as an incentive. I truly believe that my daughter thought that she was going to get the same things the stepsis did, including a fully paid college education, tickets to major golf tournaments, trips to China and Europe, great family vacations, brand new cars, whatever she wanted. Her father and her stepmom promised her the moon. She has gotten none of the above, except for a couple vacations and a 16 year old car.

So the fantasy has been shattered as well as the fantasy bond. Stepsis has nothing to do with her. Last year, my d went out to California to see a friend. Stepsis lived just up the road. My daughter was there for a week and stepsis made no time to see her. She was supposed to make an arrangement to see her one night but never called her back.  My daughter went out again this year to visit her friend, called the stepsis and the stepsis barely spoke to her. When my daughter asked to see her, stepsis (who I believe is an N) said,"Well, I think my friends and I are going out clubbing tonight. I'm not sure what's going on, but it doesn't look as if I will have any time to see you." My daughter came back and said,"That's it. I am so over her. I was angry last year. Now I just don't care. It's all about her and that's how it's always been."  Ex and stepmom see her about once a year for a few hours. They might take her to eat and for some shopping or to a movie. Ex did pay for 6 months of car insurance for my daughter's birthday present. As far as helping with college, which would be a genuine way to show care and love, he told me when she was two that he wasn't going to give her one red cent. I don't feel that stepmom, despite her wealth, is responsible for my daughter's education, but my ex, living in that situation, has more than enough discretionary income to put three kids through college. On the other hand, we all know the strings that come attached, so it is probably for the best.     

 My ex molested my daughter and raped her up until the time she was fourteen. On top of wanting to use her as a pawn to hurt me, an undoubtedly ideal form of Nsupply until I rebelled, I'm sure he became addicted to the thrill of the abuse and the power he had over my daughter. During this time, D started doing very complex drawings of faces.
She often took Tori Amos as her "subject" and would show her face drawn behind what looked like shards of glass, which I believe was her way of indicating that her selfhood was shattered and that she was trapped. The shards of course indicate lots of anger, too. I took some of the drawings to a friend of mine who is an art therapist and she said,"God, too bad these aren't admissable in court." She agreed with what I saw in the pictures.

My d had to become a cutter and a fire-setter in order to get herself out of the situation without dropping the dime on her dad. That need to protect and defend the abuser is the Stockholm syndrome...you are so right. The kids can't see and name the evil because it is too frightening...any more than we could until we got old enough to try to break away.  My n ex totally convinced my d that he was such a victim and she would beg me not to get upset with him or to confront him. It was much easier for my daughter to rage at me, the parent she knew would never reject and abuse her, than to put the anger where it belonged. I can so relate to your pain about that. Even if the abuser never says anything overtly horrible about the loving parent, the message is there in so many subtle ways. Then there's the magical thinking that goes on the kind of situations our daughters are in...Mom is supposed to be the good fairy and make everything ok, without the daughter doing anything to help herself out of the situation,  and when the magical rescue doesn't happen, the daughters are pissed off at the moms for not being able to effect the magical rescue by themselves.

It's the worst situation in the world when your child is being held as a pawn by an abuser. If you tell the truth and show how upset you are about it, you are seen as being sick. The abuser can cut you off from any contact with your daughter. You have to not get so frustrated and angry at your d....who is being victimized but not cooperating with you to get her out of that situation....that you blow up at her and destroy her trust. If the perp has unlimited financial resources, and you say anything negative, you could be slammed with a slander suit or lose any contact with your child. If you have any history of psychiatric care or substance abuse, that can be used against you, despite the fact that it is usually the healthiest person in the family that gets the help. If your family is real sick, like mine was, the perp will turn them against you, which happened in my family. If the perp is pretending to be a victim, the child wants to protect the perp. In the meantime, you are being ripped to shreds because you wouldn't want your worst enemy to be in the situation your child is in. Even when you do get your child back, then you have to face years of work to try to undo the damage...and that can take a lifetime.

It's going to take my d years, if ever, to regain what she lost. She is bright, articulate, has a droll sense of humor, and has more artistic talent than anyone I have ever known. Because of what happened to her, she is not even using one tenth of her potential.  I don't know what her path is going to be. I do know that I can't change her or do her recovery for her, but I can give her a safe place to live and be firm in my boundaries. I just do the best I can every day and am thankful that I have that opportunity.

((((d's mom)))) I believe that if you keep working to get your daughter back, that you will prevail. If you keep loving your daughter, eventually she will reach a developmental stage where she will act out or cry out for help. In fact, I think she is very close to that.  In your daughter's case, I have some fear of suicide. Those poems skirt around the issue, but they definitely hint at that. I think if you can contact that social worker who knows what is going on and give her those poems, she will become a powerful ally in getting your d out of there asap. I will be keeping both you and your daughter in my thoughts and prayers. I wish there was more I could do to help.

[d'smom]

I think that social worker might be of great help to you because your parents, being N's, have followed none of the recommendations.

i hope so. :} thanks for the hugs. at first noone believed me, the crazy mentally ill person, against these rich charming you know whats, but as the evidence adds up and its always consistent - you know what - its just adding up, sadly for d.

amethyst - i dont know what to say aobut what hapened to you. im just so sorry... and i recognise sooooo much of it. i think emotionally we and our kids really had to go through a lot of similar stuff. it sounds so similar. im so sorry........ it comforts me so much that you understand me, becuase so few people truly do, really down deep.... (thank god for them) but even with so many people that it happens to, its very lonely, as maybe you also experienced.


I was in mediation for about a year and a half with my ex, who had been abusive to me, which you know..... At that point, the ex said,"It only happened once." He made an admission in front of the social worker! In the world we are supposed to live in, that social worker should have aborted the mediation process, picked up the phone, called CPS and the police. Instead, she tried to smooth it over and wouldn't deal with it at all. She assured me that my ex seemed to be remorseful (total bs) and that she was sure he wouldn't do it again. :Rolling Eyes: ........ Later on, a couple weeks later, my ex bragged to me that the social worker was a close friend of the woman he was dating at the time. I confronted her about that in the mediation and she said,"What does that have to do with anything? I can be objective." I called her superviser and got no support. I dragged out the mediation as long as I could, trying to buy time,  but eventually my daughter ended up living with my ex every other week. Of course we know now that the ex was having a field-day molesting her.


its incredible.... this underbelly.  i think it is more of that 'betrayal blindness' i think it extends to pretty much large segments of society. they just... dont.... see... it...... they dont want to see it, they cant see it, they wont see it, and if its happening to you, they will deny it rather than do their job. its what we found, when we researched it. its just swept under the rug.  all of my drs and therapists are the same. i tell them my daughter is talking about suicide and they look at me like cows. "well what can i do? i cant do anything" well arent you a -mandated reporter-????? arent these people mandated to report child abuse?...... its..... enough to make you pretty jaded. i ask them, what does she have to do. start cutting. attempt suicide. get pregnant. i mean, what will be enough, before people step in to help this child. its disgusting to me.

or maybe they just want to keep the sickos coming. they wont have a job in twenty years if our children actually grow up healthy, will they.



That arrangement only lasted a year because my d's behavior deteriorated so much during that time that I finally forced a confrontation and insisted that she either live full-time with me or with him. That was the biggest risk I have ever taken in my life. ...

I felt that there might be a chance that he was getting enough supply from the new wife that he would be willing to let our d go. It could have gone the other way, but something had to be
done. Luckily, I was right.


that took guts.......... im very glad it worked.

my parents did not want her either - rigiht after they took her they tried to ship her to boarding school...  i was able to prevent it.. but im not sure it was better they kept her, cause they treat her so bad. they are so rich but they leave her alone all the time - (she makes all her own breakfast and lunches!) she does all her own school assignments, no halloween costumes....  she would literally have more here, living on disability. a lot of people think they wil give up, if she becomes a rebellious teen which i hope with everything i have that she does. they have no patience for dissent at all.

do you know they have never given her one birthday party. can you imagine.  but then my stepsisters kid - has a party with twenty kids, and d must -work- the party babysitting.!.   but they have completely convinced her that its the best shell get, becuase if she lived with me, we would be doing crack together under a bridge.   they some how manage to treat her worse than dirt, while weaving this fantasy that she is 'getting the best' and how fortunate and they are perfect and thats the way everybody lives, becuase i am so sick and dangerous and all this incredibly transparent crap.

spyralle i think said it..... the kiss and the slap. she knows shes treated like dirt, but she is completely believing its becuase she deserves it.. they dole out just enough little perks to make her believe that if things go wrong,  it is our fault, for failing somehow...  all the source of any of our pain is our own failure to 'act right' or 'be right', and of course, -they- get to be judge and jury.



Another part of the equation was that my daughter was catapulted into a very wealthy family, and they definitely held out lots of goodies as an incentive. I truly believe that my daughter thought that she was going to get the same things the stepsis did, including a fully paid college education, tickets to major golf tournaments, trips to China and Europe, great family vacations, brand new cars, whatever she wanted..... She has gotten none of the above, except for a couple vacations and a 16 year old car.


thats  -exactly- how it is with us, amethyst. exactly.  in a cult its called 'love bombing'. and/or, the bait and switch. they have her all hopped up that she is going to amherst, all of this (no matter that she might not -want- to go to amherst???)  but yet, they cant buy one crappy cake and put some candles on it for a birthday party.

one of the reasons this is such a red flag is they did the same thing to me.

when my stepmother had her affair with my father, ripping up -my- mother in front of the entire community, then married him, then took custody of us from -our- mother by calling -her- unfit (a lie) conveniently moving from a lower class hospital aide to a millionaires wife, they did the very same thing.   they promised allllll kinds of stuff, big house, big school.....but then when they had us...  the first thing they said was 'there would be no money for school clothes' this year...   they were -millionaires-! but my stepmother was always covered with jewels and makeup and whatever she wanted.

theres my brother and me going to a cheapo rundown public school, walking 2 miles every morning and every afternoon in old clothes. my stepmothers daughter, goes to private school her -entire- life. we got no allowance. she got $50 dollars a week.  to this day, she is the only child in his will.

when they were in the process of stealing D,   she was enrolled in a very high quality private school. no sooner had they gotten guardianship - she was in public school so fast you could see the dust cloud. sometimes i think he has gone psychotic and thinks that i am my mother and he has slipped back in time.

my daughter has no conception of this.. but i already lived it.  by the time i was sixteen i was being beat up so frequently that i left everything i had and crawled out the window and started hitchhiking.  when i try to tell her, he has a really hard time believing it. the first thing they 'explained' to her when they took her was - since i am crazy - everything i remember about my childhood, 'didnt happen'.


but its not just me. less than a year later my brother also ran away. we were both disowned, institutionalised, and put out of the will before we were 18.  and now i have to watch them do it to her. like one of those movies where you see the train wreck in slow motion.



My ex molested my daughter and raped her up until the time she was fourteen. On top of wanting to use her as a pawn to hurt me, an undoubtedly ideal form of Nsupply until I rebelled, I'm sure he became addicted to the thrill of the abuse and the power he had over my daughter. During this time, D started doing very complex drawings of faces.
She often took Tori Amos as her "subject" and would show her face drawn behind what looked like shards of glass, which I believe was her way of indicating that her selfhood was shattered and that she was trapped. The shards of course indicate lots of anger, too. I took some of the drawings to a friend of mine who is an art therapist and she said,"God, too bad these aren't admissable in court." She agreed with what I saw in the pictures.

My d had to become a cutter and a fire-setter in order to get herself out of the situation without dropping the dime on her dad.


ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. these are all so familiar.. she probably also maintained  a lot of her sanity through expression, thank god......  you know, the poem that made me finally call the social worker, was about blood and broken glass, actually.  one of the things the social worker was concerned about was her obsession with blood.....    her 'alteregos' that she has,  the one who wrote that poetry, she says is a vampire. ;(  the other one she describes as a 'pyro', and another one has become obsessed with guns. im sorry to hear about that. i hope that she is dealign with all these things now. it sounds as though she is with your help..... it also really hurts me when people say 'oh teenageres just say things' or teenagers are dramatic. this isnt normal. this just isnt normal.


i keep saying to all these drs etc - if this was your child - what would =you= do?? do you think those drs would just sit therre if -their- 12 year old was obsessing on blood and fires and weapons and suicide?? what in gods name does it take with these people.


That need to protect and defend the abuser is the Stockholm syndrome...you are so right. ..... My n ex totally convinced my d that he was such a victim and she would beg me not to get upset with him or to confront him. It was much easier for my daughter to rage at me, the parent she knew would never reject and abuse her, than to put the anger where it belonged. I can so relate to your pain about that. Even if the abuser never says anything overtly horrible about the loving parent, the message is there in so many subtle ways.


tthis is really the double bind thta is so hard for most people to grasp.  they punish the -child-, when things dont go to their agenda. thats their method of control. of course the child is terrified of repurcussions and begs they not be caused.

as for critisism - i asked her one time if she thought it was fair, that if i appear to critise them in the smallest way, even if i just disagree with them,  it is called an 'attack' and im called 'crazy'.... but they can criticise me in these huge and devastating ways and its just ok. she told me ==== "they dont criticise you". she actualy said that.

i guess, calling me an unfit abusive mother, too incompetent to even make a decision or get a freaking mothers day card, getting my whole family to believe it and stop even talking to me...... that wouldnt be criticism??>


& during our phone calls - - for instance - last night.

i was just feeling relaxed after a long day, and trying to establish a relaxed atmosphere for our talk beucase its usually so  tense with them hanging on every word. so i jsut yawned in a kind of relaxed way. she asked if i was tired. i said - no just relaxed. she said in a rare moment of honesty "ive forgotten what its like to even -be- relaxed"..... instantly, from the background, they tell her to hang up.

so... what message does this give. if she says how she feels, she loses contact with me. if we try to relax and not be tense all the time, we lose contact. this is how it is, every single week.  so.... she is left feeeling upset toward me, for breaking the status quo, by god forbid, daring to enjoy our conversation...... becuase we have lost our call,  plus they probably spent the next hours making her feel like crap or even openly punishing her, which they will totally tell her is entirely my fault.....  what does one do in the face of this type of manipulation.  im very very sorry to hear, that you do understand it so well.

Then there's the magical thinking that goes on the kind of situations our daughters are in...Mom is supposed to be the good fairy and make everything ok......  and when the magical rescue doesn't happen, the daughters are pissed off at the moms for not being able to effect the magical rescue by themselves.


totally. how powerless must a little kid feel, if mother is powerless.  what does it do to your sense of self.  she admitted this summer that she 'hated me for a while' for leaving her there. i was never so happy in all my life. id much rather her express it and own it! and know its safe. they have given her such anger-phobia beucase of all their talk that feeling angry means youre crazy....



If you tell the truth and show how upset you are about it, you are seen as being sick. The abuser can cut you off from any contact with your daughter. You have to not get so frustrated and angry at your d....who is being victimized but not cooperating with you to get her out of that situation....that you blow up at her and destroy her trust. If the perp has unlimited financial resources, and you say anything negative, you could be slammed with a slander suit or lose any contact with your child. If you have any history of psychiatric care or substance abuse, that can be used against you, despite the fact that it is usually the healthiest person in the family that gets the help.

good god...... nail on the head.


If your family is real sick, like mine was, the perp will turn them against you, which happened in my family.

before this happened - since we both ran away from home - i didnt see my brother from the time i was 16 til i was almost 30. didnt know if he was dead.  when we finally connected,  he told me 'family was the most important thing to him'..... he would always be there for me... we were close as kids. when i called him to ask him for emotional support with this - he called me a 'shit mom' and basically go to hell. we havent talked since.  they have taken my daughter - my brother - my mother - my stepsister. they wont leave me anything.... beucase i am 'bad'. beucase i am who i am and wont bow down.



If the perp is pretending to be a victim, the child wants to protect the perp.

i dont know how they are managing to  do this,  but,  he is making it happen. lets see. two well connected multimillioinares against a single mom on disability. yup,  guess i must be kicking their ass.... (((???? )))


In the meantime, you are being ripped to shreds because you wouldn't want your worst enemy to be in the situation your child is in. Even when you do get your child back, then you have to face years of work to try to undo the damage...and that can take a lifetime.

thats the worst. people keep saying - anythign can heal. anything can be healed. well, how many people here are in their 50's still trying to heal. its crap that this stuff can be healed.   no matter how self aware we are and with the best health resources, it is -not- easy to heal this stuff. this is the kind of stuff that damages a  person for their entire life.. and probably generations down...

It's going to take my d years, if ever, to regain what she lost. She is bright, articulate, has a droll sense of humor, and has more artistic talent than anyone I have ever known. Because of what happened to her, she is not even using one tenth of her potential.  I don't know what her path is going to be. I do know that I can't change her or do her recovery for her, but I can give her a safe place to live and be firm in my boundaries. I just do the best I can every day and am thankful that I have that opportunity.


that is so sad.... but it is  true. we can only provide love and safety and support. and be there. but thats what mommies do best. the potential thing really bums me out. thats why the line in the poem -"shell never be the girl she could have been" that stung. im glad you have the chance to be with your daughter now.


In your daughter's case, I have some fear of suicide. Those poems skirt around the issue, but they definitely hint at that. I think if you can contact that social worker who knows what is going on and give her those poems, she will become a powerful ally in getting your d out of there asap.

i think that too...about suicide..  shes menitioned it in several other places too, actually using the word........ i believe i will make a followup with the social worker..... ugh! so much to think about. its always something. life is too short for this.


I wish there was more I could do to help.

understanding me, and helping me talk. are really priceless. all that stuff you talked about, ive been alone with it and had to repress it.. and im horrible at that. im naturally a very expressive person. this past years have made me -very- very very sick.

since the call last night... im edgy.... it makes me have insomia. i couldnt sleep til 5 am. and im stil edgy and anxious. when i get like this i cant get things accomplished.. i let housework go and  i just feel like my head is full of cotton.

i know i cant go on this way. i am planning she wil be back in 1-2 years at longest whether its a legal process or she just runs away.   i have faith in this and am planning on it and how to support her and how to keep her safest til then. 

but..... these phone calls..... i need to figure out some way to deal with them. its just their playing field to mess with us.

just talking and being understood helps soooooo much. im only starting to get all this out and untangle it. one of the hardest things has been how few people have any itnerest in talking about it. maybe  you found that also. your calm style really helps me mentally i dont know why.
again im just really sorry you also dealt with it, its truly a level of hell i wouldlnt wish it on anyone ever..........thanks so much for writng and again im just so sorry you had to deal with what you did, you describe it very clearly which is hard for me
(((((((amethyst))))))
d'smom

[d'smom]

I would be soooo disillusioned!

actually i am pretty disillusioned.  but until the system is actually changed.. i wont do anythign illegal to fix this. (some people have tried to suggest that, but i dont think going to jail would help my d.) i want to play fair as possible.... well, mostly

Would you ever consider starting a campaign to contact journalists and have them write your story, or may be even set up a website with all the details of your case? I could work with you in setting the website if you like (free websites on geocities etc.)

YES!  your hired. yes ive been working this whole time to coordinate an effort to publicise this, as i see it as the ony way ill get a pro bono attny. yes i have wanted a website for some time.

its been a long process and a steep learning curve for me. this is a complex political issue.  i need help with al of this.. being here has just let my own head clear, to where i can even conceptualise some of what i have to do. you know lawyers like things concise and i am babbling like a madwoman.

i am slowly building a team of people that are helping me to put together an information packet, that will be distributed to attorneys that may help. i would like this to include a website. this has been complicated, and difficiult for me to organise beucase of trauma and isolation frankly. soooo YES! if yiou want to be on my team.... i would be  +delighted+. 

i have wanted a website for some time.



i have been to so many lawyers who tell me, that with the evidence, it never should have happened.

it is only that i was outspent, and they kind of ambushed us and some other pretty hinky stuff like the ex parte hearing and all.  so... the case is strong. i feel and have always felt there is someone out there that wil help us if i can get it out there.


You can definitely count on us for chipping in for your legal defense fund when it comes to the next hearing, if that’d be OK with you.

that is extremely kind. the legal system is a $ black hole though, obviously. i diont want to take anyones hard earned cash to feed that beast. somone will do this becuase its the right thing to do. i have some faith.  the evaluator i spoke of already donated $1000. of her time.  she believed in me. it might take some $$. but as its been pointed out.. the atty that will do this, isnt the one that cares about $$ anyway..


What’s more, like in most other cases, where past is past and nothing can be done, this is in the present and something CAN be done.


well thats exactly how i feel.. people tell me to give it iup or stop trying or leave it alone. there wil be time for that after she is grown. as long as she has  childhood left, this can be prevented.  she still has a chance, to get away.    if i can get her, and change the future of her life, what else as a mom would i try and do. she is worth it. she has so much in her.

there is still time but its going fast. either way. thanks so much for your really kind response. since i cannot login here (it makes my computer crash) apparently my email is being displayed unfortunately. so we can connect.  if you want to get into our loop of people making this happen for delphine id be so much more than grateful. its a fun little team, if we lived near each other we could have pizza and things.  slowly my brain is shifting out of trauma and into ability.

im in the pacific northwest.

lets please stay in touch with this.
d'smom

[Marta]

Amethyst:
OUTRAGEOUS!  I am so sorry that it was so hard for you and your daughter. To become a cutter and a firesetter, to protect her abuser! I know, it’s the double blind that is most difficult for others to grasp, and the worst thing is for an abuser to hold your child as a pawn.  How old is your daughter now?

I have received great validation from literature about my world view, what was happening to me, that I did not receive from other people I knew at the time. Does your daughter like to read?

Hugs, Marta

[d'smom]

I suspect that your N parents may probably have preferred if you took law in your own hands -- can you imagine the gloating satisfaction, the mileage they’d get out of it!


i would -never- give them the satisfaction :}....  otoh, i think part of this whole thing is the fact that they know that even if im not as 'unstable' as they say i am, i do have "health conditions for which stress is contraindicated"...... to put it mildly......

they would love it if i flipped out -- and they are not above helping that to happen.

however, thats exactly the reason i never ever would.   of course,  they just tell everyone that i did anyhow........ but i know the truth....



You nailed it when you speak of betrayal blindness – we, those who have experienced this and have had our blinkers removed are marked for life. I think one of the biggest challenges we face in staging a fight against Ns is the refusal of people to believe that there are human beings out there who are so evil!

i have seen this across the board. people just dont bleieve that anyone, much less a respected  member of the community (rich too) would actualy DO those things.

to me its like pushing a heavy rock up a hill. when my parents tell people that im crazy and they are rescuing this poor little girl from me, thats -easy- for people to believe. it fits with their world view. 

when i tell them that this rich doctor is insanely controlling and has all these agendas and is actually doing this to control us, not only is that difficult for people to believe, he can even turn that back on me and tell people its more proof im crazy since i am being -paranoid-.  even psych professionals are sometimes too invested in the idea that rich beloved doctors dont DO those things.  ive seen it repeatedly and its horrifying.

the unfortunate truth is that most people would rather believe something easy and non-challenging than something difficult and that requires them to alter their paradigms of the world.



Another thing is that People of The lies by Scott Peck presents some amazingly astute and in-depth studies of NPD’s seemingly normal and charmed lives.....  Basically you have to fight this battle on several fronts, and one of these will be to educate the good people about the abuse that goes on right under their nose.


i totally agree.  i need help keeping straight with this goal.  now, becuase we both ran away and were disowned as teenagers, i lost contact will all of my relatives my whole life. even as kids, we were kept isolated from our relatives, who were a large, close family except for us.  one of the things that surprised me after i finally made contact with a few of my relatives was how totally clueless they were about what was realy going on with us.

they alll had seen signs they felt were suspicious.... including the fact of how isolated we were. but...... from the outside apparently our family looked very very different from how it really was. that surprised me more than i thought it would.

im trying to figure out how to recontact with some of my family right now, the fence-sitters. there are several of them.   im not sure yet how to go about communicating this, its so complex, so unbelievable, and none of these people have seen me in 30 years. they dont even know why ive been out of touch. as far as they know, im jsut a bad relative that didnt care to stay in touch. how can i explain -everything-...... ?? im overwhelmed.


I think fighting for your daughter will also accomplish two purposes, other than regaining her custody of course. First of all, she will know in her heart, no matter what they tell her, that her mother did not abandon her but wanted to rescue her. ....  Secondly, when she sees that you have other people on your side, it may be just the powerful antidote she needs in her mind against the poison they may have filled it with. It is almost as though you are fighting not just for her custody but also for her soul!


i definitely feel i am fighting for her soul. im not exactly an athiest - but im not really religious either - though im spiritual. but, i have thought very many times that if there is such a thing, this is the  dark side.  if there is such a thing, i feel im being attacked by the dark side.......! 100%.

i hope that she appreciates that i am working so hard. i think now as amethyst says she is torn beucase, such a big thing they do is convince her that im responsible for her pain, by being 'stubborn' and not complying as they wish.   they tell her directly that my not complying with them, is the cause of her pain.

when we talked this summer i tried to explain that my purpose is not to fight for her like she is a peice of luggage, or to have her with me becuase its what -i- want or -i- need. i told her that i want her to come here becuase i want her to have the life she deserves.

i want her to not feel like a peice of meat that two animals are fighting over. thats why we planned together when she herself wants to come. i am fighting for her right to own and control her own self just as much as to be in a safe and nurturing environment..i am definitely fighting for her soul whether or not she recognises it.


I hate it too when people say crap like anything can heal, take responsibility for what happened to you, etc. It takes lifetime and then some to heal from damage like this, especially to you, to have your own parents robbed you of your daughter. Gaslighting is so difficult, especially when it is used as a way to control a 12 year old!


if i ever told the whole story of my life.......... let me tell you. i have had a really crazy life.  all of it put together, is why this is so hard.  it isnt just one thing or the other thing.... its everything alllll put together.....

this gaslighting thing is a b#tch, excuse my language. i would do anything to have no contact with them. as you say, it is essential to get it so they cant control our calls. its doing so much damage to both of us, to her spirit, to our relationship. 




D’smom, family must be the most important thing to your brother, that is why he is destroying himself to protect them…


the last time i talked to him i asked him if he still had his b@lls stapled inside our fathers wallet. he got kind of pissed at that. >




It is so important for you to be able to communicate to her without their intercepting your calls though. Can d email? How about sending a calling card to d, so she can call you from a public phone?


this is =totally= crucial. the phone call situation is very bad right now. they have the legal right to monitor the calls. so that wil need a lawyers help to change. that situation is high priority right now.

she does email me. last year, she took one of those free aol disks and set up an acct they didnt know about. she emailed me without them knowing for several days and then the acct went dead. (i think they axed it)  i was so proud of her for doing that!!!! (her explanation for taking the risk:  "its a free country".  loved it!  )

after that, we set up a yahoo acct together which she still has. they keep her very controlled, for instance she is not allowed to go to the mailbox alone to mail me a letter. so it would be difficult for her to get to a phone.  but if she is at school or somewhere she has emailed me many times. theres still a pervasive feeeling of being controlled. she says they read her diaries.. im sure they pry into her computer stuff as much as they can.


BTW, I assume that you are carefully documenting everything. Like the conversations you have with her, date and time of the phone calls, details like no bdday party.


i document =EVERYTHING=.  i think im on my 5th or 6th  notebook now.  just by fortune i had started a  journal a few months before this all happened - so it is recorded from the very first day.

one thing i have heard about this type of abuse is that what makes it so difficult to see is that no one incident is ever 'bad' enough to appear abusive to observers.

each individual incident, as you say below, is just a drop in the bucket..... the real way to identify whats happening is the =pattern= of behavior over time....... so i have very carefully written down every single crazy thing, how it made me feel, what it did to my health, all my nightmares, al the insomnia, all the comments d. has made, everything. its all recorded.

they have no idea i am writing down all of this stuff. and i am not telling them. :}

i also sent away for all of our public documents as well - for instance, her report cards. they had told the judge she 'couldnt read' (at 8!) <now does that poetry sound like a girl who didnt know how to read at 8.??> anyway i have her report cards that show she was reading in preschool.

they told the judge she had 'malnutrition'. --- actual malnutrition.  but i ahve her med records that say she was normal weight and totally healthy.

i have -all- of these documents, which all would be what id be putting on a website, im guesssing. 



Yes, you can count me on your team to help you in this process. I’ve never set up a website before, but I’ll start reading up now and get the process rolling. Starting out with preparing information brochures is a good idea. Shall we get started? Do you need help in writing up info or editing the brochure?


yay! a team member. well have to have virtual pizza. i have set up websites  a very long time ago, i know a very little html.......... but, the stress, etc, makes it hard for me to think. so if you have info about web pages - yes please, you can help be in charge of that area. that would help a lot. 

i do need help writing and editing. i have another team member who will be able to do that part.

i am waiting for this other team member to be ready, she has family committments that she is completing now, and then its all gonna start. i have high hopes.




I can’t PM you since you sign on as a guest, so please find a way to keep me in the loop.

i tried many times last night to login. my computer crashes every time. so... im not sure how im going to handle that. if you feel ok emailing me,  we can do that. otherwise im going to have to do something to my computer so it can let me login without crashing. (which is ok.) let me know. there is a few days before this other member will be ready to begin the editing.




Some quotesfrom Scott Peck’s book
“It is not their sins per se that characterize evil people, rather it is the subtlety and
persistence and consistency of their sins.”

“Naturally, since it is designed to hide the opposite, the pretense chosen most commonly by evil is the pretense of love.”

“I know now that he or she who would do true battle with evil must be depleted beyond imagination—perhaps beyond recovery.”

“Evil is revolting because it is dangerous. It will contaminate or otherwise destroy a person who remains too long in its presence.”

“Utterly dedicated to preserving their image of self-perfection, they [the evil] are unceasingly engaged in the effort to maintain the appearance of moral purity. They worry about this a great deal. They are acutely sensitive to social norms and what others might think of them.”



UGH UGH AND DOUBLE UGH.   ugh ugh ugh ugh. need i say more. oh this is so fun to have people to work with. you are so right.  noone can do it alone.

so let me know how you feel.

i cant wait to get started on this. !@@@ hee hee
take care marta.......
d'smom

[Butterfly]

raven doesnt know or care
she doesnt even brush her hair
shes black and white and never in between

she'll never shine just like the rest
feelings locked inside a chest
she'll never be the girl she could have been

shes a raven in a cuckoos nest
one step behind of all the rest
someday she'll fall out of the nest
and fly
raven goodbye

in school shes never raised her hand
she lives away in la-la land
shes always lost in her daydream

gone away but not ahead
sometimes she wishes she were dead
caught up and lost
in the middle of the stream

falling out of sight
falling out of mind
theres noone here to catch me
and im now so far behind
if you knew i'd fallen
would you take the time
or would you let my life
unwind
unwind

Hello D'smom,

You have such a talented daughter.  Of course, you knew that already.    Her ability to express her inner most feelings and thoughts with clarity and imagery is exceptional for her age.  In the tone of her written voice I hear deep sadness, confusion, despair, and uncertainty.  I hear that she is making a personal statement, perhaps, expressing her core belief which she has accepted or is accepting.  Could she be saying, "I don't matter to the world, therefore nothing matters to me anymore."  She goes on in her poem giving some examples manifesting this core belief.   

In her next poem, she thinks she doesn't matter to anyone..."falling out of sight" and "falling out of mind".  But, then she is uncertain at the same time.  Uncertain whether she does matter to anyone by questioning, "if you knew..."  Which tells me that she is still holding on to hope.  I pray that she will be absolutely convinced that she matters so much as a person because of the evidence that she matters so much to you.  She is not fully convinced, it seems.  But, the awesome thing is, she has her best ally.  She has you!  And I think that can make all the difference in the world for her.  As long as she sees the supporting evidence for the truth that she matters, outweighs the supporting evidence for the opposing core belief, then I think she will draw continual strength from it.  And I think you are doing an awesome job proving it to her.

Isn't that all we ever want to know in life?...that we matter, no matter what.  And that everything we feel, think, say, do matters?!

Who knows.  Perhaps, your daughter could be the next Emily Dickenson, given her literary talent.  No, better yet, she can be herself, expressing the fullness of her being.
============================

[d'smom]

You have such a talented daughter.  Of course, you knew that already.   

thank you butterfly :}   i miss compliments about my girly  :} 

In the tone of her written voice I hear deep sadness, confusion, despair, and uncertainty.  I hear that she is making a personal statement, perhaps, expressing her core belief which she has accepted or is accepting.  Could she be saying, "I don't matter to the world, therefore nothing matters to me anymore."  ........

In her next poem, she thinks she doesn't matter to anyone..."falling out of sight" and "falling out of mind".  But, then she is uncertain at the same time.  Uncertain whether she does matter to anyone by questioning, "if you knew..."  Which tells me that she is still holding on to hope. 


this was a very thoughtful thing to say Butterfly :} . i spent a lot of time thinking about this core belief idea. i think that you are right..... becuase i thought about what happened..

she is a little girl that reeally loves her mom.... we were very close and also very alike.  so.... she was at a vulnerable age (........ and very suddenly in a position where everyone around her in great authority is telling her that the person that she matters most to, and that matters most to her, and also that she strongly identified with and wanted to be like,  her own mom, is sick, and valueless, and worthless....... -and- never really loved her.......

that not only means that her whole life until age 8 was wrong and worthless, but most of herself  and her dreams and her self is worthless, becuase so much of her is like her mom......

it was a very deep wound for her.

now it is  coming more and more to her awareness that the people who portrayed themselves as her saviors, may actualy have been the perpetrators......!.... 

so its no wonder that she feels worthless, and that she matters to noone of importance. the people who -are- important to her, are called worthless. the people who are called worthy, are not very good people. i think she feels very alone.


I pray that she will be absolutely convinced that she matters so much as a person because of the evidence that she matters so much to you.  She is not fully convinced, it seems. 


i feel the core believe she must challenge in that case, is that her -mother-  is worthless, (my parents deeply ingrained belief)  and therefore im not a valuable person to matter -to-.......... and truly everybody wants to matter to their mom.  everyone wants to believe their mom is the greatest when you are a little girl. if your mom that you are so close to is someone to be ashamed of.. someone nobody values... what does that say about you, as a child.....

but i stay very consistent - for instance - i send allowance every month. becuase i am still responsible for her. and she is not beholden to them.  she always has a little money to do her own thing.   b-day - easter - halloween - she -always- gets a package.  when she comes here, we eat, things are clean, i have money, the car runs, she feels safe.  i respect her choices and encourage her personal power. by all of this, i show her rather than tell her, that she matters and that her family are people worth mattering to.   i hope it fills in that big hole that was left, when they told her that everything she cared about and loved, was worthless.

last night she read to me a new poem that was mor a joke.. she had parodied 'a road less traveled' and it was just more silly than depressed, like - 'i took the road less traveled and it was a dumb move beucause it turned out to be all muddy and i fell down and got mud in my hair. im really proud of my hair so this made me very upset. ill never take that stupid road again'.

i liked it, it wasnt great poetry but it was more decisive and she talked about being -proud- of her hair. so, i thought that was an improvement. 


Isn't that all we ever want to know in life?...that we matter, no matter what.  And that everything we feel, think, say, do matters?!

yes, this is true. so many of our families failed in this, didnt they. 

Perhaps, your daughter could be the next Emily Dickenson, given her literary talent.  No, better yet, she can be herself, expressing the fullness of her being.

that would be the loveliest.   thanks for your interpretation it gave me a lot to think about.
d'smom

[d'smom]

Same here. My mom is a rich and successful doctor, and no one would believe a word against her, except for our closest relatives who have seen her true colors and seen her in action. Out of 12 therapists I saw, only one told me that something was wrong with my family, for the rest, I was the one who was scr**d up. 

ugh. that is that 'invasion of the body snatchers' feeling. do you know that movie? ....


My advice would be to treat this like a battle. First have a conscious strategy, then allies, then weapons, then venture into their territory. Otherwise, you will be ambushed.


i definitely think this way. i am in the gathering allies step.  i am also in the gathering weapons step. meanwhile i pretend to them as though i am no danger at all.  them underestimating me, is a big asset.


I think having your own information brochure, website, psych. evaluators who are on your side, friends who know you and give you character reference, etc. is the first step.


i am gathering -all- of this.  organising information and especially complex strategy is very difficult for me. i will explain why at bottom.


(her explanation for taking the risk:  "its a free country".  loved it!
Yeepee, yeeepee!! You have every reason to be proud of her. It is really quite remarkable for a 12-year old to have taken the risk.

that was a good moment for me as a mom



Ns lie, lie, lie. So if you are vigilant, if you play the game knowing their psychology in mind, chances are that you will be able to also gather concrete proof of their lying.

actually there is concrete proof. they actually lied on the stand!  thats part of why i gatherred all those public documents. there were many times they lied that i can prove. there is even proof that they lied, and -knew- they were lying when they did it. that is slander/libel i cant remember which.   iow - when they told people she had 'malnutrition' not only were they lying, but they -knew- they were lying. it wasnt just a mistake or something. (becuase they were doctors. their own records from their own hospital showed she was healthy a year before they made those accusations...... so their own hospital records will prove they were not only lying but were fully aware they were.)



Done. I have never set up a website before, but I am computer savvy so it can't be too hard. I may not be able to spare more than 2-3 hours per week right now, but even at that pace we should have a functional website loaded with information for you prior to the custody hearings next year.

i will just keep chipping away.  anything will help me. i wil tell you why:

here is the deal, i need to tell something about me that makes this extra difficult for me.  i told you i had a crazy life. well, when i was 20, i was hit by a car..... i was a pedestrian, i was hit by a drunk driver @ 40mph.  the metal of the roof of the car impacted directly into my face..... i was thrown a number of feet and was out for a short time. it broke my collarbone and i had to have reconstructive surgery to keep from losing my sight.

it gave me an amount of frontal lobe injury on the left side, and also some neurological issues i still deal with, which was also part of what my parents used against me. 

either way, frontal lobe injuries impair something called 'executive functioning'. which has specifically to do with planning and strategy.

of course this effect is magnified under any kind of stress.  when my brain function was tested a few years ago i was found to be above average problem solver.. & my iq is still 130.  but my 'executive functioning' is low average.  so... i have a lot of trouble formulating strategy..... sifting through complicated information .... and its all much harder under stress which this is.

my problem solving compensates.   but its a weak spot. so formulating strategy is one of the areas i feel most hopeless in and why i tend to feel so overwhelmed and have so much trouble seeming to focus.  i do feel very overwhelmed.  they are extremely intelligent and  play with me like a cat and a mouse.   its partly beucase of my brain functioning.

its just something to know aobut why this seems so hard for me, otherwise seemingly intelligent person.  sometimes i feel people wonder, why i seem so confused.
thanks marta........ appreciate everything.   stay cool
d's mom










 

[Marta]

D'smom, if you can post your email (afterwards delet the post), I'll be in touch with you re. the website. I don't see anyother way of us being able to connect with each other otherwise.

No, you don't appear as rambling or confused to me. I think what was done to you was terrible and hopefully you'll be able to be with d by the time she is fourteen.

[d'smom]

marta -

im not sure if this works on all computers, but with people who dont login, this board seems to display the name to the left of the post like with everybody except theres a litle picture of an envelope below the name.

if you move your cursor over the envelope by my name, it will show my email address, in the lower left corner of your browser.

if that doesnt work for you i will post it..
take care marta.......
d'smom