Author Topic: Does this ring true for you???  (Read 3165 times)

rosencrantz

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Does this ring true for you???
« on: August 06, 2003, 01:27:35 PM »
Here where I live, NPD isn't recognised as such and so 'voicelessness' rules (for now). I'd very much welcome any comments on my interpretation of the following events...(tho wonder why such events are so 'loaded' that explanatory posts always have to be so long??! :) )

On my son's 9th birthday, my dad phoned to say Happy Birthday.  My son was out but I said we'd phone when he got in.  I was a bit anxious as he'd been out having birthday fun with friends and it was late so he'd be tired and perhaps not able to be on his best behaviour.

Well, I phoned and handed the telephone to my son.  My mother answered.  I guess he didn't give her what she wanted - he was too monosyllabic I think. Not in the mood to be 'endearing'!!  And, for the first time ever, she started on HIM!  (Smart boy : he asked her not to pick on him because it was his birthday!!!)

Then she absolutely went off the deep end at me.  What happened next hasn't happened in nearly 30 years (mostly because I haven't allowed it to!!).  But it was an epiphany!!!

I was sobbing,  when my father took the phone off my mother, I could hear her continuing to rage in the background.   I asked him to ask her 'why, why, why' she did this.  He was nearly in tears and trying to get her to come back to the phone. I was terrified and ended up shouting down the phone begging him not to put her back on.  He couldn't hear me as he didn't have the phone to his ear.  I put the phone down in a panic in the finish just in case she did decide to come back on!!

The very very sad thing is that my father never got the chance to speak to his grandson as he'd wished that day (did you notice that!?).  My father was a very nice man and my son liked him very much.  

But what on earth was going on?  Why was I feeling terrorised?  Why was I sobbing and sobbing and sobbing???

I thought it was because it came from 'left base'.  I hadn't anticipated it as things had been so calm for so long so my guard wasn't up.  

But what I really did work out on that day was that my mother was - dare I say it - a bully.  I realised that I'd been bullied at least since I was 19, not sure (then) about before.  

And then I discovered that bullies are frightened souls.  I thought that perhaps she, too, had realised that my father was dying and so was lashing out from her fear about what the future might hold.  

But when I read about NPD, it suddenly dawned on me what had happened.  

My father had broken the rules!!!  HE had phoned US!!!  HE had tried to have a relationship with HIS grandson.  He NEVER did ANY of that!!  All  relationships were always in a straight line - TOWARDS my mother.  I think he knew he was not for long on this earth and it led him to take risks!!!  HE had usurped HER role!!!!  And SHE was in a paddy!!!!!

It's sad and laughable all at the same time.  But so vicious, so vindictive, so unreal.  A narcissistic rage.

The saddest thing is that I subsequently cut off all spoken communication with both of them for the sake of survival - and so we missed talking to each other at Christmas, my father's birthday and my own special 50th birthday - he only spoke to my son on the phone one more time and that was just before he died at Easter.  None of us 'knew' he was dying but my son said to him 'If you have to go to heaven, I hope you have a lovely time'.  Aah - kids!  

Finally THEY had chance to connect and have a relationship.  I'm glad.

I'd very much welcome any comments on whether my thoughts about what 'really' happened that day (in the context of NPD) ring true to others.  

Or am I really just a pathetic person who is trying to make things much bigger than they are, avoid responsibility, and can't handle a simple day-to-day paddy??!

My father said til his dying day 'What IS it between you and your mother???'  I finally said that I couldn't cope with the emotional bruising and he said 'she often acts like she hates me, too, but she doesn't mean it, really'.

???
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Neko

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Does this ring true for you???
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2003, 04:09:54 PM »
rosencrantz - I think your interpretation is pretty insightful. Your and Rob's stories about your fathers certainly resonate with my own.

My father is a passive enabler too; I remember him as an outgoing, confident and happy man until around age eight, when we talked about mom and he agreed that she shouldn't accuse me of lying all the time when I wasn't. My N-mother always accused me of lying when I told the truth, and whenever I lied... she believed me! My father promised me that he'd talk to her about it, but she literally turned him against my brother and me that day, saying that children are naturally manipulative and especially girls "will always try to turn their father against their mother"; that he should make a clear stand against that sort of thing. I was severely punished for it (emotionally and mentally - they never physically abused my brother or me, it would have been too obvious) and made to feel like an agent of the devil, exorcism in front of our church (it was actually a local cult) and all! My brother was told that the same would happen to him if he ever "got any ideas". Ever since then my father's been a shadow of himself, he never again took me or my brother seriously and always acquiesces to our mother's twisted interpretations.

Sometimes, a tiny flicker of his old self will come through, but just as with your mother, rosencrantz, mine will be her most vicious at those times. It's very sad, but on the other hand, he's an adult, and I'll never understand why he chose to stay with her all those years. He knew my brother and I weren't happy, he even agreed with us that she was unreasonable sometimes, but never once did he stand up to her. He would even report our confidences to her - the third time he did that, my brother and I finally wised up and could no longer trust him.

The most hurtful thing for me as a child was that on more than one occasion, my mother and I would be driving somewhere, chatting about whatever (usually herself and her problems), and she would always bring up Dad, ending with "I don't know why I ever married that man. I should have waited around for better." She denied ever saying it when I confronted her a few years ago, even though she told my brother the same. I guess no one's ever good enough for a narcissist's supply - they're still married though!

rosencrantz

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Does this ring true for you???
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2003, 05:50:04 PM »
Thanks ever so much for the comments (more welcomed!).

Everything has been so secret for so long.  

I think I was lucky that my father stuck up for 'reality' until after I left home.  He also looked after me one day a week when I was very little and she went to work.  So I did benefit from a 'normal' relationship sometimes.  

When I left, tho, everything fell apart.  

I can now see how vulnerable she was - always trying so hard to get approval, working herself to a frazzle, feeling 'abandoned' by me.  

But the crazy viciousness of the attacks - I was her daughter doing natural things, getting interested in getting a life!!!  And she said I treated her like a dog!!! Lack of attention = howling like a dog, rolling on the floor like a dog, being treated as worse than a dog!!!???  It's a bit extreme, isn't it???

When I got my first boyfriend (also at 19), I thought she'd be glad that I'd finally found someone of my own (see mum, I'm not competing for the men in YOUR life) but, no...no-one, not a girl friend or a boyfriend was ever good enough; she poisoned every relationship she came near - undermining my trust in other people.  

In fact, she did everything she could to undermine me in every way possible so that I would limp back home.  (But I didn't - I just limped!!!)

But it's that double reality that confuses me so much. Vulnerable vs vicious.  I don't ever seem to have managed to see her as a whole.  She's lived the life of a recluse for the past 10 years or more, totally dependent, being waited on hand and foot, an 'eccentric' - surrounded not by mirrors, but by pictures of me.  The person through whom she intended to live her life.  Miss Haversham...

I feel ashamed for having let her down but it also feels too creepy for words.

Sweet, vulnerable, helpless - vicious, spiteful, undermining.  

Both?  Or is the former just manipulative - as soon as she doesn't get her own way by being 'nice', the real person appears full of rage; OR is it that when she doesn't get her needs met, she defends herself with the latter.

How can *I* trust  *her* enough to help her.  I guess I know your answres will be that I can't!!
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Nic

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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2003, 07:57:08 PM »
I can't remember my parents ever taking responsibility for what went on in my head or my brother's.  Today I see the need to completely break away from them like you Rosencrantz, because I simply cannot take anymore.  My soul needs to break away.
I love the way you express your experiences, I admire your focus.
My parents could not have children and they decided to adopt.  I sometimes fantasize/hope/think/wonder how it would have been if I had been adopted by other people.  I'm not saying they didn't love me, I acknowledge they loved me the only way they could.  Unfortunately that did not include putting my needs, real or perceived and or anticipated, before their own.  Things were more or less "fine" until my brother and I developed a personality of our own.  I sometimes think how wonderful it was for my mother and father to "play" parents.  They attended to our basic needs of food and shelter, you know the primary requirements fine.  But early on I remember the fighting at night, the crying spells of my mother, the uncontrolable rage she would go into every once in a while.  And, as you are well aware, children are very good at deciphering the "subtext" the "unspoken" very early on and particularly as it is happening.
I was shocked to read in the preceding posts how your(plural) parents blamed you for all kinds of things, the statement that one of you was told very early how you pit your mom against your dad and how "you came between your parents" reminded me painfully of the same accusations.

Something happened in my family when I was 7 years old..my mother convinced my father that my brother was coming between them and was lying all the time. My father was a 'soft' man according to her, he couldn't discipline us properly.  She made it clear to us that "she did not want to do the dirty work all the time" and she did do alot of dirty work.  She hit us often, slaps and paddles and lots of verbal abuse.  In french she used to call us " enfants de chiennes" which translated means sons of bitches..or female dogs.  To my young adopted ears that meant that my brother and I belonged to a female dog each , and that we came out of one of those.  I used to imagine the ugliest, scarriest, dirtiest female dog with snarling teeth..and wonder how I could have come out of that.  But she drilled it into us mother did.
So out of the blue, my brother and I found ourselves in an exclusive boarding school " where real men will deal with you" as I recall my mother saying.  We were caned, and beaten for eight years, we could not complain, if we did it was worse.  And yet when we got a letter from home, (my mother wrote to me and my father wrote my brother), we read them and exchanged the letters hoping we had been forgiven.  My brother and I were sentenced to life in prison , that's how we felt.  I was more resilient than him I thought..but later it dawned on me that my cheerfullness and willingness to see the good side of things was nothing but a defense mechanism.  How sad.  I've had to reconstruct myself, at great cost, it's still going on.

It was clear that they no longer ( my parents) had to take any responsibility for us or anything really.  They were now paying other people to abuse us in their name and for them.  Meanwhile, my mother was on drugs, lots of them and drinking, and my father was working all the time.  I allow myself to think that while his wife was sedated and myself and brother were away at school, he was free to live his life as he pleased.  The focus was not on how we were doing, but how we were performing and how we were concentrating on not shaming him.  I enjoyed alot of accademic success without encouragement from my parents ( it was expected), my dad hated the sissyness of it all, he praised my brother's aggressive athletic ability but not without warning him that sports were for dumb people and he should concentrate on a career.  Double messages all the time, like many of you ALL my christmases were awful, terrible.  My parents hadn't seen us in weeks and yet christmas eve everyone was braced for my mother's annual mega blowup.  You could feel it in the air.  She was waiting for "someone" to say or do that "one thing" that would allow her to split open at the seams and let 'er rip.  And inevitably it would happen.  Year after year, to the present actually.

" All you want is our money" "You ungrateful children, all you want are the presents" blah blah blah!  
Even when she went to rehab the first time, that christmas was the worst of all of them.  And on and on it goes.

My father plays her game and like the poster who said that his father coached him to let it slide off his back, my papa did the same thing.  She doesn't mean it , you're exaggerating he would say.  He would even say to us when we complained to him: " At least you don't have to live with her all the time.." * dumbfounded at the thought as I'm writing*  I just can't win, I feel your exasperation Rosencrantz.  Sometimes I say to myself and get angry with myself at spending so much time trying to figure my parents out.  Especially knowing that they spend no time trying to figure me out..which brings me to the next logical step of divorcing them altogether.  And then regret creeps in, and grief over how it could have been.  I need to move on and I need help to feel ok about my decision.
Very refreshing to hear that your parents made you feel like players in their relationships..that is so wrong and so hurtful.  It's not them I hate it's how they were and are, it gnaws at me often, too often, it's a dead end. And yes, I do wish they were dead now, I've had enough. :cry:

CC

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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2003, 01:41:37 PM »
Your post made me cry.  I am sad for you and the loss of your father.    You sobbed so much, I would guess,  because you were acknowledging your deep childhood pain through your son's brief encounter - and had not allowed yourself to directly.

rosencrantz

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Does this ring true for you???
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2003, 08:01:00 PM »
Hi CC - I'm sorry that my post made you cry.  So let me share with you a happy ending. (But it might still make you cry!!!).

When I learned how ill my father was, I felt I had to do some fast thinking in order to survive intact!!  I decided that, in spite of what anyone might think to the contrary, I had HONOURED my parents by getting out from under and heading for a healthier life.  Even if I had abandoned them in the process.

I visited my father a few days before he died.  He didn't know I was on my way and we hadn't seen each other for five years or more.  I asked the nurse to warn him he had a visitor as he was asleep and I didn't want to give him a heart attack!!  LOL

Oh my goodness - the look he gave me, and gave me and gave me.  A lifetime of love in that look.  He was so very pleased to see me.  I was  sad for him when he said he thought he'd never see me again.  I cry again but they're good tears.  

I'd given up on hoping ever to have a relationship with him - whenever I tried, he'd switch things round to talk about me having a better relationship with my mother.  He never looked me in the eye and he certainly never looked at me with that love in the whole of my lifetime (not since I was conscious to be aware of it, at least) - but what a look.  I am truly blessed.  

He wanted to know if I was happy!  (Happy!! Not 'successful'!!! No-one had ever suggested happiness was important before!!!).  And he died content because he knew I was happy.  He said he could see it in my eyes.  As my face was all screwed up with crying, I'm surprised he could see anything but an ugly face, but there you go!!!  He saw INTO me!  My mother never saw anything but the surface and even that perception was distorted.

Everyone liked my father.  Folk generally thought he was a nice man.  He was so distant I never really knew him.  But if he hadn't been my buffer, I wouldn't have ever had the potential to be as healthy as I am. And that love must have been there between us for our lifetime, in some way, even if only in our unsoncious interaction.  Wow!  I didn't know such a love existed!!!  But I've always said that there must have been something healthy in my early life.

And then, another unexpected gift...he showed me in the way he treated me that there was nothing to be forgiven for and - therefore - nothing to feel guilty about.

Thanks, Dad!!!
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

claudiacat

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Does this ring true for you???
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2003, 09:36:54 PM »
Thank you for sharing that intimate moment.  I too lost my father, the quiet, gentle man in the family.  Unfortunately I did not have the same opportunity that you did as he died en route to the hospital in the ambulance.  I was very young and too afraid to see him gone so I chose not to go into the room at the hospital to say goodbye.  I regret that to this day, because I had trouble grieving after that.. It took me three years to even cry.  

Now I have made peace with him, and I vicariously picture the same experience that you had, if I'd been able to go into ambulance, or the room with my dad before he died.  I am certain that he would have had the same look for me.

How wonderful for you, and you are truly blessed. I am glad you had that special moment and recognized it for what it truly was.  We need any bit of love from our parents we can get, don't we?

Interesting how kind, gentle men are attracted to the Nwomen.
CC - where there's smoke there's dinner

Prosperity

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hi rosencrantz
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2003, 09:52:13 PM »
Your descriptions of your father remind me a lot of my father-in-law.  And your descriptions of your mother remind me of my mother-in-law (both of them still living, however).  It's strange but I'm crazy about my father in law even though he never really speaks to me all that much.  He is a good listener, though.  He'd have to be, to live with someone like MIL!!!  Anyway, your father's comment about your mom "not really meaning" her hatefulness really hit home for me since that is exactly what I am beginning to learn about my husband.  

The parallels we see among personal situations on these types of support forums is sometimes astonishing.  

I'm so happy for you that you had the opportunity to experience such a meaningful moment with your father.  Everything you said about it shows that you do truly understand that depth and meaning that cannot be expressed in words existed between you and your father, and that is what is real, and it can never be destroyed, not even in death.  

Love, Prosperity

mary

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Does this ring true for you???
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2003, 11:29:31 PM »
Rob, I am a mother of kids that have suffered from their relationship with N dad.   I feel so awful that I did not realize just how much they have suffered.    I am trying to do all I can to get help for them to get over this terrible thing in their lives.  I guess I was going through it too with them.  If I could change things now that I better understand things I would do so.  In a heartbeat I would do so.  I grieve that my kids carry this sad baggage.

rosencrantz

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Does this ring true for you???
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2003, 04:58:55 AM »
Prosperity and Claudiacat - Thank you SO very, very much for your response.  

When I shared my experience I, nevertheless, felt 'well, that's it then - I've cooked my goose by sharing this story.  All I'll get now is resentment and nobody will speak to me, there'll just be barbs".  'Realistically' I believed that people on this board wouldn't 'have a go at me'.  But it hadn't occurred to me that you would be so warm in your response and pleased for me.  And I think you felt good feelings on my behalf.  So my experience was a good one to have shared.  And you are healthy people!!  Thank you!   :)

I didn't realise until that moment how much I expect the world to react to me as if 'it' is my mother.  I can recognise now exactly how much I removed from my mother what I should have felt about what she did and transferred it onto the world outside instead.  A 'rational' choice for me as a child when there was no escape!  But unhealthy when, in my teens, it meant the world was an unfriendly place and my mother was a safe haven!!!!!  

I felt sad to see anger.  I don't want to feel anger about my father.  He was gentle, kind and had no idea what on earth was going on 'between me and my mother'.  I regret that I wasn't allowed to experience the love he clearly had for me. But he was my mother's husband and he did his best to protect his wife - and his own fears.  He was in the war in France in his late teens - who knows what happens to a man in those circumstances. And HIS parents produced a generation of frightened people.  

I AM both my mother and my father as well as my'self'.  If I hate them, I'll hate me, too.

Something I learned from my work in the women's movement is that it's no use women getting angry with men - because men are just as much 'victims' of the system as women.  And I also now think that it prevented us from understanding better the narcissistic need for power that fuels the 'isms' of the world.  Or perhaps it was a necessary step.  Perhaps we'll understand better in time if, one day, a recognition of narcissism becomes mainstream.  (Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing!)

Narcissism only has victims, too (yes, the perpetrator, too) because narcissism plays to our weaknesses not to our strengths.  Letting go has to be the first step.  Our parents didn't have the information we have, the internet, books, TV, the concept of 'self-help' groups which brings this generation out into the world.  We get to explore privately, anonymously, the confusion and pain and discover that things are not as the world told us (your mother loves you really, she'd do anything for you, she's sacrificed her life for you) but that there really is something wrong.  And that the continuing dynamic between us and our parents really IS toxic.

'Should haves' 'if only' - I've thought those words so many times in the past few months but every time I realise it's futile.  I can only 'let go'.  They each were who they were, living in the time and place they did, and they made the choices they did which were the best they knew how.

But anger is perhaps better than hopelessness and despair, Rob.   Keep moving on through the process - don't get stuck banging your head against that brick wall! - and you WILL find peace.

Hugs to all.
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

October

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Re: Does this ring true for you???
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2003, 06:51:05 AM »
Quote from: rosencrantz


My father had broken the rules!!!  HE had phoned US!!!  HE had tried to have a relationship with HIS grandson.  He NEVER did ANY of that!!  All  relationships were always in a straight line - TOWARDS my mother.  I think he knew he was not for long on this earth and it led him to take risks!!!  HE had usurped HER role!!!!  And SHE was in a paddy!!!!!

It's sad and laughable all at the same time.  But so vicious, so vindictive, so unreal.  A narcissistic rage.

???


I think you are right that the N has to make the rules, and we have to follow them, one way or another.  They cannot understand our boundaries at all; we belong to them and they can do whatever they like, even ruining your sons birthday with this kind of behaviour, and no remorse whatever.  I bet it was all focussed on what you owe them,  not the other way round.

Tinkergirl

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To you...Nic
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2003, 11:03:05 AM »
Thank you so much for sharing your post on this subject.  It sounds like you not only have to deal with an abusive N mom, but also alcoholic on top of it all.  I"m so sorry for your childhood experiences.  It sounds like  you are continuing to let this affect you so deeply, as you say still "spending time figuring them out"....and that they still take no responsibility to this day for what happened.  

I just recently "divorced" my N mom and her husband (not my father) because she absolutely refused to acknowledge or repair any past or present wrongdoings; in fact she demanded to see "physical evidence" of her abuse as a child, denied any physical, emotional, verbal abuse that still continues to this day.  One thing I have learned in therapy, books, from peers....you cannot and will not be able to change/save the N parent (or those who defend her).  Although I have guilt and question myself (even though my brother can validate our violent upbringing) the only way to start really loving myself and enjoying my life is leaving their drama and craziness behind.  To not allow them to abuse me, in any way, anymore.  

I hope you come to this realization as soon as you can, because spending one more day trying to figure your parents out is a waste of your precious time and energy.  Don't continue to play the "what if" game with your past; it is what it is but you can make your own present....you can't change the past.  Learn from it, heal and move to a better place; and fill it with people who will take the time to "figure you out" because you are a wonderful human being who can become a loving individual, free of this pain.

rosencrantz

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Re: Does this ring true for you???
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2005, 09:15:07 AM »
I just came across this thread again and wanted to make an update about all that screaming and shouting my mother did on the phone that day...

She phoned me up recently to tell me how I'd made my father cry that day. Being accused of the last thing I ever did with my father was to make him cry was just too much.   "It was YOU," I said forcibly.  "It was YOU.  You made ME cry.  And I could hear you still ranting away in the background after you handed over the phone to Dad.  That's when HE began to cry."  It was the first time I've not protected my mother from herself.  I've always worked on the basis that it would be unkind or cruel to be effective in reflecting back her behaviour.  I'm only just realising how much I've protected her from herself over the years, laying myself open to being further vilified and criticised. 

But it was the most effective thing I could ever have done.  The next time we spoke, she asked me why I thought I was so weak!!  And then later on she decided that it was because I hadn't been brought up with brothers and sisters and so wasn't practised in handling the way siblings deal with each other (WTF?!).  Since then she's actually been behaving herself!!!

I think her reasoning is a load of hogwash - is that supposed to be some kind of excuse!  But whatever works, is fine by me!

I also noticed I wrote in that first post here : He saw INTO me!  My mother never saw anything but the surface and even that perception was distorted.

I am finally coming to terms with the idea that my mother probably does suffer with Aspergers Syndrome - alongside my husband and son.  As I have such little personal contact with her and seem so 'removed' from my experience of her as a child, it's difficult to find any evidence in the here and now.  But that comment about the eye contact both differentiates between my parents and is a dead giveaway.

It could well be that one day the boffins will discover that everything they thought about personality disorders actually comes back to a physiological difference between those who can empathise and those whose brain doesn't give them the opportunity to do so.  It causes so much pain for everyone.  Aspergers Syndrome.  They really don't know what you are talking about when you try to get them to consider your feelings, they feel isolated and alone, frustrated in their dealings with others and prone to rages, constantly rejected and left on the periphery.  They enact what they see others do in order to fulfil their place in society and their role in the family. They are usually very intelligent, too - yet cannot use their intelligence to change the reality of their difference.

There's so much we don't know about human beings and about being human.  And so much we don't know that we don't know.  I am very sad today.  :(
R

"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill