tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?

[Gail]

Hi Vunil,

The post partum period is really difficult--takes a lot of energy.  So, it's normal to want help.  But, I have a feeling that the "help" your parents are giving are sapping your energy instead of helping you conserve it.

Are there any grocery stores that deliver?  Or do you have friends that could shop for you?  As long as you can get essentials delivered to your house, and you have someone you can call if you start bleeding again, you probably are better off alone with your baby.  Then, you can rest as much as you can without all this extra drama that you don't need right now.

It just drove me nuts trying to analyze and understand all the crazy making behavior my XH put me through.  It helped when I finally realized that it never was going to make sense because he wasn't rational.  I remember when we saw a marriage counselor.  This was a counselor who was very calm, tried to be non-directive, etc.  By the end of the session, he almost had XH by the throat.  He was so upset with him that he was shaking.  (And I lived with the guy for 24 years!!) The next time I went (by myself, because XH didn't think I "really wanted" him there. Hunh?") the counselor told me H had a severe personality disorder.

I finally came to realize that you can't make sense out of someone who is irrational.  It's a futile effort, an energy robber.  Expect irrationality from your parents, except for the few times they are rational.  (Which is the intermittent reinforcement--the most powerful type of reinforcement there is.) 

I had a very similar experience with breastfeeding that you did.  I think that an Nmom can feel jealousy about her daughter establishing that close connection with a baby.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing she didn't breastfeed you.  If she feels that jealousy, even if she is not conscious of it, she'll try to sabotage you.  Breastfeeding is hard enough at the beginning without that.

Even if you "feel" guilty about wanting them to leave, maybe you could think about it as medically essential for you and your baby to establish breastfeeding.

Gail

[vunil]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing she didn't breastfeed you.

She didn't.  You guys are amazing.  How did you know that?  It is also possible that this is an "achievement" she doesn't want me to achieve-- she is sabatoging it.  She used to do that when I was growing up-- both my parents did.  It is all so sick it's almost unbelievable, which I guess is why I have trouble believing it....

[Gail]

I think along with not wanting you to have this "achievement", she could be unconsciously threatened by the relationship you and your baby will develop because of breastfeeding.  Once you get past the first few months, breastfeeding really is a wonderful experience for mom and baby.  It's something I really loved about motherhood.  I felt it really created a special bond between my children and me that lasted long after breastfeeding ended. 

Gail

[jordanspeeps]

hey vunil,

It is all so sick it's almost unbelievable, which I guess is why I have trouble believing it...

believe it, sweetie!  once you get through the realization that your parents are probably hardcore Ns, you will have a better go at how to deal.  some of what you're talking about are classic N scenarios--little covert sabotage missions going on constantly, with little lies and misgivings dispersed about.  you feel unsure about what you should really be worried about and find yourself getting upset with things you probably shouldn't be as worried about.  and it's super-tough when you reach this realization, because in many ways, it's like the pain of grieving the actual death of parent, instead of the death of the fantasy you have of what your parents c/should be.  it's like damn! now, i've got to experience all my major life-landmarks alone or with non-family members, and that sucks.  in your past, they may have done things that seem to be cloaked in love or concern, but that's just what it is, a cloak.  one that covers what dysfunctionality that truly lives within.  

"no good deed goes unpunished" goes the cliche, and i think it's so painfully relevant to the offspring of Ns.  and N parents love to take times of vulnerability, such as your current situation, which by the way, should be a wonderfully glorious time for you, to work their mind-damaging agendas. accept that they probably, from a dark,deep-seated, unexplainable place, mean no real goodness or happiness for you.  some possible reason's they could be "helping" in the midst of thier own Nism.

1. maybe they feel that unique, robotic "Nguilt" that Nparents get that causes them, under the guise of helping, to try to agressively "undo" past offenses by creating new "good deeds," possibly completely unrelated to prior offenses, ones that will not only cancel out the previous egregious act, but will, more importantly create more of a longterm indebtedness to the Nparent.  In other words, to shut your complaing up while setting you up to turn the tables on you.

2. maybe they see this as an opportunity to show you just how they feel about what a beautiful, successful, caring, person you've come DESPITE them.   maybe, all the criticism and the opposing commentary, is to leave you with the impression that they are dissatisfied with you and your general choices in life, mostly because it somehow opposes the goodnes you emanate.

3. maybe it just looks bad that they NOT be with you during these times given some of the misleading white lies they've told their friends and family back home.

4. or maybe they are just pure evil, so any jealousy, sabotage, undermining, lying, apathy, nay-saying, confusion, unrest, can be
attributed to that.

my two cents, best of luck to you and your beautiful, precious, baby girl.  know that you are and will be an excellent mother to your D and if it's any help to you, do what i do when i have any questions along the way regarding the best way to parent my child, considering my Nmother history, i just ask myself, "what would my own mother do?" and then i do the EXACT OPPOSITE!   i have a very loving, sweet, beautiful, intelligent, well-adjusted 5 year old daughter, to boot!

tif

[Plucky]

Oh Vunil, that is scary!
I'm glad you came out alright.  I had lots of bleeding too after giving birth, for far too long, and the doctor said it was a result of trying to do too much (husband not helping) and/or stress (mom helping).

Do take care of yourself, as much as you can.  Let go anything that can slide - housework, thank you cards, etc.

Please understand that I think your parents are not worth having, period.   To the extent you tolerate them, you are a saint in my eyes.  What your mom did, and all the little things your parents do all day to drive you nuts and erase your identity, would have me on the verge.

However, I would want you to understand that the things your parents are doing are probably more harmful to you in terms of aggravation than to your baby.   I know that nursing is tenuous, and I didn't realise it's been only a week!  However, there are really no hard and fast rules about nursing and other baby facts you read in books.  A baby can indeed recover from being fed formula once or twice.   When my son was in neonatal intensive care (1 week old), one sadistic nurse fed him formula repeatedly, despite having my expressed milk available.  He went on to nurse for years.   While they ought to respect your choices of what to dress her in, try not to get too angry about it.  Your baby will be alright.   She has you for a mother.  Once you set a date when they will depart, you will feel much better.

Vunil, feel free to disregard this advice if it does not ring true for you.  And please everyone, I don't need to be flamed or reprimanded for downplaying the N parents' wrongness or Vunil's right to her feelings - I am not doing that.  I just think that there is no point in getting really worked up for something that may not be a huge issue in the long run.  I don't see how it benefits Vunil to be more and more nervous and stressed if it can be avoided.

As a new parent, it is really hard to separate out the fact from exaggeration.  You are treading new ground and may not have good sources of information to hand.  It's a great idea to connect with parents of slightly older children.

My best wishes and hugs to you.
Plucky

[Sallying Forth]

I think along with not wanting you to have this "achievement", she could be unconsciously threatened by the relationship you and your baby will develop because of breastfeeding.  Once you get past the first few months, breastfeeding really is a wonderful experience for mom and baby.  It's something I really loved about motherhood.  I felt it really created a special bond between my children and me that lasted long after breastfeeding ended. 

Gail

The special bond is what I wrote about in my post, "Receiving now what I needed then and brain changes." It gives the baby eye-to-eye contact with the mother and that gives the baby their identity and you're actually teaching your child how to establish and maintain their first relationship.

" "It is that person who provides that baby with their first sense of what is a relationship with another human being all about," explained Constantino. "And what happens as they grow up is ... that relationship gets internalized in their mind and brain and carried forward, so that their whole understanding and their whole approach to relationships with other human beings is based in large measure on what happens during that first attachment relationship."  ...[/i]

I wasn't breast fed for very long because a congenital defect which my mother failed to notice. We never bonded. She never saw me.

[Sallying Forth]

I am not sure anyone who is not a mother and/or didn't breast feed can understand what an extreme violation all of this was.   It is clear the only reason the baby was fed was to shut her up.  My wishes, which have ramifications potentiallly for weeks and maybe months of feeding (and, if the feeding had gotten screwed up, my child's lifetime), were not fully considered much less followed to the letter.

Whenever my wishes conflict with their wishes, I lose.

And to shut you up too. That is their goal. In their eyes, you don't exist. That baby doesn't exist. It's only them and what they say and what they want and what they think. They are N!


((((((((((((((((Vunil))))))))))))))

[vunil]

Ok, today on "As the Baby Turns"--

I ended up yelling at my parents and kicking them out of my house.  I said we would talk tomorrow.  My dad said, very angrily, "maybe," meaning he will never talk to me again, I guess.  It is amazing how the slightest impertinence sends him into a blind rage.  It brought back a lot of childhood memories... He points his finger and asks questions like he is in the courtroom ("did you or did you not say...." and "did we know how long you would be in the hospital?  Did we?  and he says my name a lot in this ... voice... that is meant to express contempt and superiority).  My mom basically melts in insecurity and needs me to reassure her that she, all of her motivations, and all of her actions are ok.  This is tough to do when I am trying to explain what is not ok with me.  It's actually impossible-- she keeps pleading with me to say I understand and accept what she did and I have this feeling that if I do that then I am back where I started, with no voice, because it isn't ok.

Right before they left, my father came into my room and said, in a furious and "so there" voice:  "just so you know, everything in the garage has been put back to where it was before we came here."  This was reference to the fact that he rearranged my garage while I was in the hospital (not something I needed or asked him to do).  I guess he showed me... ?  That was the tone of voice he used.

Now I have to figure out what happens tomorrow.  For now the peace and quiet are nice.  I am in mourning for the parents I wished I had, that I think my parents would be if they could.

[vunil]

Actually, to be fair I think my mom did feed the baby because it made her feel terrible to hear her cry.  That's what she says, and I believe it.  It doesn't change that I am upset with her, but I do think there were empathetic, human, reasons she fed the baby.  I want to make sure not to think in black and white, because that is what they do and it is what really doesn't work for them.  I want to try to see grey where it is there.

I am not sure tomorrow they'll be able to do that, though.  I bet they are packing up to leave for good after today even though I said we would talk tomorrow.  To them, I am either completely on their side or not, and I indicated I am not by being upset with them.  I hope this doesn't escalate to the point where they disown me or something.  My dad likes that kind of angry drama.

[Stormchild]

Whew, Vunil. What a mess. Now what you're describing really makes me think about the church ladies too. They kept calling and pushing me to let them go to the grocery store for me - ???? !!!! - I had packed in enough provisions to last me and my cats three months and groceries were the last thing I needed. Push, push, push. Does any of the following sound familiar at all?

-- Oh, there are these really wonderful frozen dinners, you just microwave them for five minutes - uh, well, thanks but I don't have a microwave. --

-- There's this wonderful service that makes soups and stews, you freeze them - uh, well, thanks but I have about 150 cans of soup, stew, hash, etc. Bought all I needed before I went in the hospital. --

-- Oh. Well, is there anything you do need? -- Yes, desperately. I can't vacuum, I can't bend and can't stand up without a walker. The floor hasn't been vacuumed in ten days, and I have cats, so there's cat hair and bits of litter on the rug. --

-- Oh. [long pause.] I'll send the maid over. - No, please don't do that, I can barely move, and the last thing I want is a total stranger in my home. I'm sorry, I thought you meant you would come over and help. --

-- Oh. [annoyed sniff.] I see. [another annoyed sniff.] Well, it's been nice talking with you and I'm glad you're coming along so well. --

-- Thanks for calling. [hang up, swear profusely.]

Sounds to me like your folks are much more in it for the performance and the self-admiration & 'bragging rights' than for you or your baby and the things you need. And yes, that 'living in the past' thing is a dead giveaway that abuse is or has been on the agenda.

Sorry this is happening, but I am glad you can see it. It's a lot less crazymaking when you know for a certainty that you are not the crazy one.

Hugs --

[miss piggy]

Hey Vunil,

Big hugs to you.

Hey, your mom is scared that you finally have her number.  She really is scared that she messed up (again) with your baby.  You reminded her that her mistakes have lasting consequences (the breastfeeding/formula battle) and she's probably scared herself by realizing how out of control she is.  I very much doubt the baby was crying because she was hungry.  There are many reasons babies cry.  But your mother has to believe that this is why she is messing with your decisions.  "The baby made me do it."  Your mother is beyond sick.  She cares more about her fragile ego needs that another life.

Every interaction with other people is an opportunity to create chaos in someone else's life v. their own.  So they take it.  Your dad sounds like a real pistol too.  Cleaning the garage was just his way of coping with a situation he knows nothing about, but he can feel productive and helpful and tell his buddies what he did.  What a guy.  Wouldn't you rather he watched football in between doctor visits?  If you didn't ask for this type of help, it is called INTERFERENCE.  And you didn't ask for it.  I can't stand the angry bluster thing.  Just yell back at him saying why can't you stand to see me have some confidence in myself?  Why are you so scared of your own child having their own say?  What's so scary about that for you?

This whole thread could be my life: the "help/gratitude" number (my parents), the intermittment reinforcement (parents), the interference (the BPD in my life) and the "don't dwell in the past or hold grudges/pattern recognition" (my sicko brother).  Buh-bye.  

The only way out for you, Vunil, is to let go of the outcomes.  If they disinherit you, is that a bad thing?  To have some peace in your life?  Don't miss the drama.  Opt for boring peace and serenity.  Your d will love you for it.  

Good luck, MP

PS Ah yes, the church ladies.  We have church ladies who line up other church ladies to cook the actual meals!  And feel good and holy about it!    The church lady could have offered to line up someone to vacuum and could have been understanding about it, rather than make one feel like an ingrate or spoiled child.  Really. 

[Stormchild]

Hi V

I logged off and was on my way to shut down for the nite when it hit me.

Lady, they did it all on purpose.

They didn't want to help, they wanted to come out and pick a fight with you so they would have an excuse for NOT helping.

Like the creepazoids, to borrow a term from David, who pick fights with their waiters so they can have an excuse for not leaving a tip. There was never going to be a tip, the fight was merely window dressing. You were never going to get help, the fight was merely an excuse for them to leave you high and dry and make it YOUR fault.

I get a very very strong feeling that this is the case. I mean - you are in the ER, BLEEDING! Any normal parent would have been half out of their mind with worry over you! All these people can think about is their precious selves!

Toxic, toxic, toxic. Don't let them poison your kid too, dear. And try to get a good night's rest... take the phone off the hook, they'll call you tonight at a time calculated to wreck your sleep for the rest of the night, with mama all in tears, and you'll spend an hour or more soothing HER when the one who needs soothing and apology is yourself.

Don't let 'em play that one on you. Get some sleep.

P.S. - these things aren't always conscious, but that does NOT mean they aren't just as deliberate.

[vunil]

I dunno-- they have done a LOT for me since being here, things I really needed them to do.  I think the situation is more complicated and sad-- I think they want to be parents in the way we all want parents, but they didn't have that and have no idea what it looks like or how to do it.  It is too hard to give up control, to give up being right, so every interaction has to be driven by those needs, meaning the simple nurturing (that is driven by other people's needs and ceding control) that they want to provide (or want to want to provide) is out of their comfort zone or even abilities. 

But I don't want to pretend they haven't been there for me during all of this-- they have.  It's just that I can always feel the pull in them toward the things that make me crazy-- questioning everything I want, and taking control of me in ways that are outside of the actual situation and unnecessarily boundary-violating.  It is as if in giving something they give themselves away and that feels really threatening, so the giving has to be accompanied by something ego-gratifying like the implication that they know better than I do, or something.  Otherwise, it is too scary.  So, we have these interactions where they ask me what I want at the store (say) and I give some examples, and they tell me why those are bad ideas, and then they bring me some of them anyway.  I still get what I wanted but they haven't been "weak" or whatever their pathology labels pure giving without the negativity in between.

I imagine both of them found in their childhood that any pure, raw, giving spirit was squelched immediately and mocked. I bet this from having known their parents.   So now it is tough for them to do it.  In truth, it may be tough for me to see it even when they really are being purely giving.  There is so much baggage there I am not sure that I can see my way past it.  That's something I'll need to think through for myself.  Could I ever really trust them?  Is everything they do screened through a filter of distrust in me?  I know they think that is true, and it may be.  I am not sure what would fix that.  I imagine people do work to a place where they can get past the past, but I am not sure I imagine that we could do it.  I don't know how to do it while still maintaining the fiction that they haven't done anything wrong or had negative motives, and they require that fiction to function.

I want to admit that some of this is me-- I may be unable to hear anything pure and good in them now-- at some point I lost my ability not to be angry at them, deep down.  It is always there, waiting.  This may be what it is like to be the victim of a sexual abuse, even if it was not at their hands.  Maybe I should look into doing some reading on that... 

Thanks, everyone.  This is really helping me cope with a difficult (and wonderfully magical at the same time) time.

[Plucky]

I want to admit that some of this is me-- I may be unable to hear anything pure and good in them now-- at some point I lost my ability not to be angry at them, deep down.  It is always there, waiting.  This may be what it is like to be the victim of a sexual abuse, even if it was not at their hands. 

Vunil,
even if you are reacting this way, it is not 'you'.  As a child they allowed you to be violated and did nothing to remedy it, not even admitting it.  They still force you to pretend it didn't happen.  So if you are angry and cannot think well of them, it is their own fault.  You are not responsible for any of it.    Would you negligently allow someone to be raped, and then expect them to be nice to you afterwards, and pretend you had no role in it?   Is that a reasonabe expectation?

Even if your mother might have had a hard time listening to the baby cry, the correct reponse was not to attempt to meet her needs in a way that completely ignored and trespassed on your request.   The baby is a person whose needs msut be met.  Your mother had needs she wanted to meet.  But you are a person whose needs do count and they should be considered.   Even if your needs involve simply meeting the needs of your child.   And they were not.
Plucky

[Cadbury]

Vunil


First of all many, many congratulations on the birth of your daughter! I haven't been here much recently, but this is lovely news.

Second, I am a single mum and I am breastfeeding my little man, who is now 4 months old, so if you ever want to chat then feel free to PM me at any time. I am feeding now and typing one-handed so this is brief but I wanted you to know that I am with you!

Regarding your parents, some of what they are doing everyone does to new mums. The amount of people who've told me that my son would sleep better on his tummy, or better if I bottle fed him. I get attitudes almost as if Breast feeding is some strange, new-fangled thing only attempted by the insane! The only thing you need to be guided by is what feels right to you and you alone. People unwilling to listen to you are not helping - they are hindering. I know how bad it can feel to be alone. I had pleurisy and a suspected blood clot when I had my son and had to go back into hospital, so I needed help and I know how badly some people can "help"!

I will talk more when I don't have a baby attached, but I hope things are ok with you. I am here if you want to chat so please do.... ((((((((((vunil))))))))))