Can N's EVER change ?

[highestgood]

Hi,

I'm new to the Message board and have been reading the posts with great interest but am still a bit confused about my on/off BF and sometimes absolutely convinced he is textbook classic N and at other times wonder if I'm not the needy,controlling insecure person he says I am/was ( when he's not encourgaing me about what a shining beautiful star I am ) go figure. One thing for sure... I have become more confused and fragmented by his intense come here go away behaviours than in any other relationship and yet find myself almost helpless in terms of amnesia. That is... I forget how he has lured me back and told me how my his heart is open to me and how he hopes we can try again only to have him blow up over some old seemingly forgotten thing a few hours/days/ after our loving reunion. Trouble is... I still lvoe him or fall for it because I so want to love the good parts of him.

To get to the point though. Our relationship was earmarked by periods of calm (or so I thought) when all seemed to be going well and then.... he would find something and start to blow it into a long list of grudges and grievances few of which he made me aware of at the time( " you do 40 things a day that just disgust me/ I would never do things the way you do") etc etc and I meanwhile would stand there deer -in-the headlights not believeing that this seemingly loving, enlightened new agey mild mannered dude was turning into a vicious petty queen! If I tried to question or defend myself he would start to shout and then scream, point his finger and shake and usually by  this time I was very alarmed and gobsmacked into silence.  He'd usually end the tantrum ripping off his shirt  and foaming at the mouth as I tried to maintain politically correct non- inflammatory language. God forbid I should ever use "you" statements or blaming language even as he lambasted me. Anyway.... I did get to the point where I was able to speak up a little (never having been able to raise my voice or even argue back to my N-ist Dad who would even try to control the tone of voice I used with him).

Yes... I was finally able to scream back and say " SHut the Fuck Up!". Not sure if this is an accomplishment. However, more recently when he has started to go off I will say... please lower your voice/ please lower your intensity/ please drive slower/ please go away. And he will. Maybe underneath it all he is a big wimp and wants to be dominated. Not sure. Would an N do that ?

however, he does talk about himself incessantly and I almost believe that he really does love himself profoundly rather than as a compensation. He believes nothing but good comes to him ( Gee thats the kind of denial I'd like to have), has tons of admirers  despite being judgmental  and gossipy( he likes to think he's just truthful and unafarid and has no respect for "privacy" and boundaries thinking that there should be no need if one is living an open life). He ego is constantly being fed because he is a gifted teacher and he always tells me about all the women who come on to him despite the fact he's balding and almost 50 ( I've had to be around him while women express interest in my face although I think he puts out a vibe or needs to draw the attention  to himself by various means. He's always going on about freedom, and sexuality  which bugs the *** out of me since we both know it encourages lonely women who are looking to connect. and so I give up and head out the door because he knows that I don't want to be in a polyamorous relationship and then  he'll miss me and the hooks goes out and we start again. He does have some very beautiful qualities... Yet, he never seems to pay for the devastation he causes others... not to be a total victim I know I am responsible for my part, but its as if the universe keeps rewarding him.. or in his narcissim he is able to spin away the not so good stuff. I dont believe he is lying awake at night suffering... indeed he's always telling me about the incredible visions he has which makes me feel even more less-than. He always used to refer to the "gap" between us or his last girlfirends or how noonw is capable of understanding  who he is.... or don't try to figure him out because people juts can't go where he goes. Or here's another regular
line of his; 99% of people lie cheat and manipulate and  women are needy manipulating creatures ( apart from me that is.. he does admit , needy as I am, that I am not a manipulator) He says so many things that make me gag and yet I still believe in much of what he's saying , it's juts is arrogance and  mock 'modesty' ( " Maybe I'm just a nut"_). He often refers to himself in the third person, " Just stick with Robby because he knows what's going on...." and he has told me at times to juts shut up and do what he says, in other words to trust him implicitly because I don't know what the fuck is going on. AT times I would say this is true bgut at others it is so risible and offensive; even if I don['t know what's going on his attitude is so offensive.
 

When I think about how he has treated me at times I'm staggered at how he deflects rationalises and spins the event... like the hour I spent helping him put up a tent and then he flamed out because I didn't read  the instructions the way he wnated me to.. and then I cut my foot and he screamed because I wouldn't rinse the woulnd the way he thought even though by then I was crying... he SELDOM apologises and when he does it doesnt seem very deep. The joke is that when we got together and I was much more assured and looked at him askance when he pulled some of his behaviours... he asked that I call him on his stuff since noone seemed to be at his level so to speak. But when I dared to do it... he would look at me in a very odd way and start to explain and defend instead of juts hear it. And then after going on and on I'd say Ok, time to drop it. But he couldn't He would come back an hour  or two later and go on and on and on justifying why he did what he did... totally unable to take criticism.
So... remembering some of this stuff helps me keep things in perspective but I'm afraid I'm still liable to his charms. I do wonder if it is all a game to me and if he loves me at all.. if a narcissist can love. Once after a fight when I was literally weeping in a pile on the ground he drove off shouting "Noone has ever loved you ! ( he knows my parents and judges them mercilessly) I'm the only one who ever loved you and I was there for you 200% but you blew it !  Charming stuff I know.. but then when I've been sick or having a panick attack he's rushed in and stroked my head and heald me all night long... He loves being the caretaker but then is very resentful with people  but not when I have been ill.

Perhaps my ego is just as fragile as all those other lonely empty manipulating women he has such contempt for.... because when he tells me I'm still the most beautiful woman etc, etc , i fall for it. One thing though that has always been odd... he is somewhat passive sexually  and it's usually on his terms ( which becomes very frustrating) and in the early stages of our connection when we were playing around he once accused me of raping him ( seriously ) because I came towards him ... which provokes his other routine complaint " People just don't get how sensitive I am". But when he rest together we have had the most incredible I'd say divine healing . For me it is like receiving the peace and  nurturing I never remember getting as a child. If it happens without being prefaced by a row ( which he almost always initiates since I've learned to be on eggshells around him) it is the most peaceful place I have ever been in this life. What is so agonising is that the greatest bliss I have ever felt and the deepest hell are both connected to the same man. 

Meanwhile I have done a ton of investigation into my part in this relationship and almost everyone tells me to run for the hills but it is so hard .Despite all the crap I light up when I hear his voice... when he's not raging of course.....

I have often pulled him up on using such general  global complaints... wouldya stop talking about "people" this and "people" that for crissakes.... but to no avail....

Anyway....just wondering. Some truly horrific stuff  and incredibly painful stuff has happened as a result of his screaming attacks... which maybe I will write about later but suffice to say I left him ( he never had been left before) and he was devastated for the first time in his life..... When we saw each other again after two months he asked me to marry him (!) which I was a little surprised and suspicious about. I was very leery of opening up to him again and was incredibly angry about how he had treated me. But  because I was very vulnerable at the time I left my guard down and almost as soon as I did ( plus express my outrage about his behaviour) he turned again and blasted me ! Very confusing since he had at one point before I left told me that he could see how fragile I was and that he wouldn't shout at me.... and yet the very next day he went off again.


I'm rambling sorry....

[mudpuppy]

Welcome highest,

Whatcha got here sounds like your classic Narcissist to me. There are about 100 women here who have apparently dated and or married the exact same screwball.

Whatever 'bliss' you have felt is the same thing a trout feels as it takes a chomp on a big juicy worm that just happens to suddenly appear in his little pool. The pain you feel is the hook being set.

So can an N change? Good question. I suppose its possible. Maybe. According to the head shrinkers its a mighty rare thing. The first thing is he has to admit he's a head case. Thats not gonna happen. Even if he does I have never ever heard of an N who changed very much. I have heard a few claim that they have reformed but their decription of the new man still doesn't sound like much of a dreamboat. More like a garbage scow.

Wouldn't you rather find somebody who doesn't drive you to the internet to talk about what a braying jackass he is? I think you should listen to your friends who advise you to head for the hills, like as soon as you get up in the morning. And don't leave a forwarding address.

mudpup

[Marta]

No, I don't think hardcore Ns can ever change. Unfortunately, it is a discovery each of one must make for ourselves, like you can't learn swimming from watching others swim, so too you don't really believe Ns nver change unless you ever know for your own self.

[vunil]

Hi, Highest Good--

Well, I agree with Mudpuppy-- many of the women (myself included) here have dated that same guy.  None of them ever changed.  As a scientist I want to believe anything is possible, but as I posted on another thread I think that if a hardcore N really changed it would look super-dramatic, would take lots of painful work on their part, would take all of their effort for at least a year or two, and it would be the entire focus of their being. It would look like it looks when anyone sets out to really change-- lots of heartache, lots of pain, lots of work.

I have never seen a truly N person, or even someone with lots of N characteristics go through such a thing.  But it is possible!  Some folks here, myself included, have some N "habits" learned from our parents and we spend a lot of effort trying to understand and eliminate/alter those habits.  So that is a model of what change would look like if it happened.

Here is how it does NOT look:  Boyfriend is mean.  You leave.  Boyfriend is suddenly nice and shows "understanding" of how he was mean, complete with flowers and compliments and apologies.  Boyfriend promises to "change."  Start cycle again.

I have been in that cycle-- the key is not to figure him out (he's easy-- just read a book on narcissisim and/or abusive relationships/cycles) but to figure out why you find the cycle seductive.  Imagine how someone who doesn't know him would view the cycle-- it just comes across as yucky, doesn't it?

[Brigid]

Welcome Highest Good,
I would agree with what the others have said.  You are dealing with a man with strong N characteristics and the prognosis is not good.  Could he change?  Yes, maybe with a lot of work, as Vunil said, but most often they will not stay in therapy long enough to be "cured" because they won't accept that they have a problem in the first place.

I agree with Vunil that what you need to do is figure out why you allow yourself to be treated in this manner.  I have married and divorced 2 n men (not to mention those I dated), and through a lot of hours of therapy over the last 2+ years, have learned that my childhood pretty much set me up for welcoming them into my life, allowing them to mistreat me for years, and being devastated when they decided to leave (my great fear of abandonment would not allow me to make that decision).  Unfortunately, I had to get to age 53 before determining that I needed all that therapy, but better late than never I guess.

You need to find your self, learn to love yourself, know that you are worthy of true, caring, mutually respectful love rather than abusive, disrespectful ownership by a man who cannot love.  They cannot love because they cannot feel.  They are predators who seek women (or men) who are vulnerable and needy, use you until something better comes along, then cast you aside without thinking twice or cheat on you--depending on what better serves their needs.  I hope you can come to the realization that you will be better off without him.  I wish you well.

Brigid   

[vunil]

Hi, Petuunia--

I have wondered similar stuff!  I started a thread about it and got really beautiful answers.  People here have found real love, the kind you are talking about, and they related how they did it, and what it means.  I would check it out.

As for the loneliness, this is completely a shot in the dark but I bet that is more from having the wrong people in your life than from not having the right people, if that makes sense.  I think N's make life really lonely.  My upbringing, surrounded by N family members all over the place, was wicked-lonely, really tough.  I am less lonely now with fewer people around me.  Also, I think making your own family helps wth that-- I have a newborn and she really fills a lot of the places in my heart.  I don't think it matters if the child is your own, or that it even has to be a child- just someone of your own is really lovely.

Oh, and by the way, I do NOT think 55 means you only have one foot in this world or whatever you said   It is true many men turn off as we get older, but maybe part of the key is looking at different men from before.  I am trying to do that-- to look at the person's soul, to only respond to people who are attracted to me (instead of pining, which I also do, after unattainable men).  It is an effort!  But I have male friends who complain that women are as shallow as men about a lot of issues and they may be right-- when it comes down to it, I am still attracted to charmers and I have to work against that.  It's a battle.  I guess one thing about growing is that it continually happens, we are never done... I am jealous of people who had more healthy childhoods and knew a lot of this stuff earlier, but at least I'm here and functioning and trying

[Brigid]

Petuunia,

how do I begin a new round of openness to dating and hopefulness, without the old seductive cycle?

I, too, am 55 years old and am back in the dating world.  When you have been hurt by most of the important men in your life for your entire life, it is scary to think about jumping back in, but I could not envision the rest of my life alone.  I, too missed the touch and passion--especially after being married to a man for 22 years who was rarely interested in intimate contact.  I am now in a relationship with someone who has met all the criteria I established prior to starting to date again.  I have talked about this on some other threads, but, for me, the most important criteria was that they had been in a commited relationship and had children.  Then I very carefully examined the relationship he has with his children and how they interact with him.  At our age, they are usually mostly adult children and perhaps there are even grandchildren, but I think you can get a good sense of the character of a man or woman by observing their interactions with both those who are close to them and those who are strangers (waitresses, flight attendants, etc.).  Obviously, this all takes time and effort and a very strong willingness to walk away from the relationship if you observe something which sends up a red flag.  This was key for me to learn, as I never walked away in the past and would hang on as long as they let me.  This time I have walked away from several relationships prior to remaining in this relationship for the last 7 months or so.  I am happier than I can ever remember being right now and enjoying all the benefits that a good, healthy, loving relationship should provide.  Only time will tell if it is a lasting relationship, but I am in no hurry and know that if I remarry again, I want it to be forever. 

I strongly recommend you take the risk (however, please stay away from the married men), but only when you are healthy and whole and comfortable with your self.

Blessings,

Brigid

[highestgood]

Thanks for your responses all.....


It's funny. I think I do a typical thing - correct me if I'm wrong- in that I talk to various friends/people about the difficult stuff what's going on in the relationship and they are quick to label my SO as a narcissist/perpetrator  and then I agree somehwat but end up defending or wanting to show the other side of him because it's never the whole picture. Then I feel crummy because the people around me are then 'unsupportive' of us   or I then become polarised.The truth isi I still have feelings for this person despite the  abusive aspects of the relationship. I don't feel good about this and I know it reflects lack of self-worth that i would rather be in a questionable relationship that does have some great stuff than nothing at all. But that's the overcharge of being lonely for too long.

I have done a lot of delving into my lonely childhood, abandonments, etc and I know I know about learning to love myself. I have even explored the idea of being a so-called love addict or emotional masochist , I KNOW a lot but it doesnt change the feelings I get around this man because he is also very uplifting and positive,when not ambivalent and polarised himself.


However.... that's kind of the least of my worries right now.

[write]

oh yes, anyone can change. But first they have to want to. Then be prepared to do some soul-searching and hard work.

My n-h only changed when I ended the marriage, and even now we get flashes of the old behaviour, though he is more self-aware and much less angry. He isn't cruel any more, and we have become good friends.

But I'm convinced if I were to go back to him in a year ( or less ) we would be back to square one and all the old patterns would quickly re-establish.

I have given up dating and relationships for a couple of years, since I seem to be hard-wired or 'trained'  to accept behaviours which are unacceptable and I find myself drawn to narcissistic men somehow. I know I wouldn't tolerate the same behaviours in a  woman friend!

Whether or not your partner is a N his behaviour to you is frustrating and unpleasant and making you unhappy.

Have you read the Lundy Bancroft or Patricia Evans books?

[mia]

Hi Highest

No. Regarding the N that I was married to I truly believe there is no way he will ever change.  In fact instead of mellowing like most folks do with age...his N'ness continues to grow and grow.

Get away while the getting is good.

Best wishes.

[Gail]

Hello Highest,

A friend helped me with a sentence when I was trying to decide if I should end a relationship with a man who was not nearly as abusive as the one you describe, but abusive nontheless.

He said this, "The good parts of the relationship don't negate the bad."

I realized he hit the nail on the head.  There was a lot of good about the relationship I would miss, but I couldn't live with the bad.

In your situation, if there weren't some things you expect to miss very much, it would be easy to end the relationship.  But, this fellow sounds very abusive and nothing can "make up" for that kind of behavior.

It helped me a lot, too, to read the article on www.drjoecarver.com on How To Know You're Dating A Loser.  I printed it out and checked off those items that fit.  It was an eye opener.  It might help you, too, to read it.

[Chicken]

Hi Highestgood!
Welcome to the board, I'm sure you will find this place very helpful.
My advice to you is to try to stay with the reality of the situation.  By this I mean, don't be lured into the comfort zone where you take the good for now and forget about the bad.  Don't allow yourself to be in denial any longer.  Instead of investing your energy in him, start educating yourself about your situation and why you think you are keeping him in your life. 

[Plucky]

Hello highestgood.
Sounds like an awful quagmire.  On the one hand, you are getting something you need from this man.  On the other, you are paying a high price for it.
Sometimes we harbour plans, or thoughts, or really fantasies, that we can still somehow get the good stuff and avoid the bad.  But as mudpup said, the good stuff is only the bait. 
Once you swim off to more fertile feeding grounds, you will realise how slender the attraction was and how dearly you were paying for it.    You already have started down that path.   It is difficult to turn away from a tempting morsel of the love and acceptance you need and want.   Try to see it for what it is.  A death trap.
Good luck and strength
Plucky

[longtire]

Welcome, highestgood.  I am late to responding here, so I'll back up what others have said and add my own comments.  Its sounds to me like your ?BF? may have some strong Borderline PD traits as well.  BPD and NPD have a pretty high comorbidity.  That just means you get the package deal, some of this PD, some of that PD....  I believe that my wife has a strong mix of both.  I don't know whether she has enough of either to be diagnosed officially, but the combo is murder on relationships.  If you haven't already, run out and read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Mason & Kreger.  I don't think it is a coincidence that you used that phrase in your post.

My advice to you is to stop worrying about him, which I know is is a lot harder to do than say.  Focus on yourself.  First make sure that you have a healthy base to work from.  Eat healthy, excercise regularly, and get enough sleep.  When all that is working, spend time taking care of yourself.  Do something special for yourself everyday, no matter how small.  It isn't selfish, if that's what you're thinking.  Taking care of yourself is your #1 job in life.  EVERYTHING else comes after.  Take time to reconnect with yourself and remember who you are.  It sounds like you are suffering the effects of this crazymaking relationship.  *You* haven't changed and are still the same underneath.  Clear out all the unhealthy stuff that isn't you in your life and the real *you* will bubble right up again.