Overwhelming Guilt/Pity - Help

[nightsong]

that last post was by me, nightsong - I've finally realised I have to log in to post as me. Sorry people!

[nightsong]

that last post was by me, nightsong - I've finally realised I have to log in to post as me. Sorry people!

[Nic]

Hi CC,
Yeah I understand..you didn't need to ask me what I would do if only one of my parents was living though! *lol* Nonetheless, since you ask, my father is 81 years old, moneyed cheap and crooked..if he were left alone i wouldn't see him anyway..my mom is 77 and is an alcoholic..I have lived with her drunkenness and pill popping for eons now, if she was left alone i'd make sure she had adequate medical care and leave her in the care of her vulture family who have been wishing her dead for years anyway!  Blunt enough for ya?
I came to the decision to leave my N parents after years of sustained and serial abuse perpetrated on me by them.  It came after much therapy, it is the end of the sentence..the period  as in full stop,the part of the book that reads THE END.  I cannot at this time go into factual details concerning our court case but when I can you will be astonished at how conceited and selfish some people can be..you will more accept my decision and you will in no way be tempted to question and or ponder it further.
Suffice it to say that I spent an awful long part of my life and creativity actually parenting my parents..that is always wrong.  It is true as stated in earlier posts, by Rosencrantz for example, that adults take care of themselves..my N parents needed me as food to survive.  It is very clear now to me.  The programming is gone and I am seldom unconscious  of reverting to it when the thought of them enters my mind.
I understand their matrix completely.
Now, as far as other peoples' experiences and from reading almost everything posted here, only the names and places have been altered to protect the innocent as far as I'm concerned.  There is a commonality, that is, a common denominator to the N nature, M/O of the N parent and that would be: extreme selfishness and self absorbtion to the point of negating the very life energy and veritable BEING of the children they generate or adopt.  Despite them ( the N parents) having their own hangups and horrible pasts, the damage they generate and perpetuate transgenerationally must be stopped when a victim becomes aware of it.  And I thank God everyday for the crap I've been through and am living through right now because I know for sure I will not be a producer of a new crop of Narcissists.
I also have discovered that Ns with age only become worse, i've experienced that personally..there seems to be no hope of them developing any sense of responsibility much less awareness and much much less caring and empathy.  They constantly lay, consciously or by default , traps of caring and generosity for their source(s) of supply..an elaborate or simple disguise designed to maintain the status quo and the focus on themselves., as long as it involves them! In fact it seems to be a Christmas tradition for them..give give give..say I love you or whatever while everyone knows it's all over on the 26th if they haven't just simply ruined it again!
The ultimate protection is what i've done because it was vital that I do so..my self, my identity was disappearing.. I had to cut them out.  BUT, some Ns are not as extreme as mine..and one can manoevre safely ( relatively) around them.  Any guilt associated with not getting an inheritance for example, is ok and normal in my books.  If you've lived with an N so long you're entitled to some compensation! ($)
But, and in my case..there wasn't going to be any money anyway and so I was free to make the ultimate move.  Although it was difficult throughout the entire process, my inner voice kept telling me "go on Nic..it's all going to be ok..don't give in anymore you don't have to"..and of course my wonderful scottish wife who knows since forever that yes is yes and no is no has been a wonderful support, never giving in to my mom's berating of me and all her sabotage.
Don't apply other peoples' solutions to yourself..feel it out with your situation.  I've also learned, ( like Rob i'm a christian!) that when you expect it the least God will jolt you out of your comfort zone and say Hey YOU!  I gave you a life and I want to make it better and I can...and so I was jolted right out of my comfort zone and it has been a weird/wonderful/ terrible/scary/mind-boggling/twisting/topsey-turvey/cool and anything else you can think of two years.
Ok begining to ramble now..I should really write a book..perhaps I will.
I'm glad you're going to claim some peace..you claim it you own it!
Blessings as usual dear friend but most of all PEACE!
Love Nic.

[rosencrantz]

It is so very challenging - and complicated.  I agree with the advice in the Nina Brown books - Get out and stay out.  But, if we stay in, then how can we treat them with less respect than we require of them? If we use harsh words, what does that do?  

It's my despair that I know that if I 'stay in' and also stop fighting and pushing (and using harsh words), there is no 'time out' because then my mother encroaches on my space and threatens my mind, my emotions, my equilibrium.  The words no, stop, 'time out', just have no meaning for her so, as I know it's a choice between my well-being and hers, and I have resolved to say 'me first' (if only for the sake of my own family), I have no option but to remove myself from the threat.

I have started a million conversations with my mother in my head and I haven't found a single way through to a positive conclusion.  Because she is elderly and is recently bereaved I don't want to use harsh words.  My choice is to feel (slightly) guilty about 'abandoning' her rather than tipping her over the edge by fighting her.  I write to her and she writes back the odd sentence, always recriminatory in tone.  I keep in touch with Social Services and the Psychiatric team and make sure her finances are OK.

I'm not saying these are the right choices, just that these are the ones I've made. In fact, they are the only ones I can cope with.

CC, you say that you don't want her to change, but you desperately DO want her to change - you want her to act differently and be other than she is.  Indeed, you want her to be herself!?  What a fundamental life change.  She has probably never been herself!

'Being yourself' is beyond the capacity of the N - they have too much shame.  You are surviving the shame - she is overwhelmed by it.  That's what made her an 'N'.  Shame is too hard to experience, it's too fundamental, without a huge amount of support. Their age is against them - they more than any of us are becoming aware of their mortality - and they don't have the ability to trust anyone to provide the kind of rock solid support needed.  (When I mentioned support for her, I meant people around her, rather than therapy for change.)  

And your needs, CC - you wanted her to meet your need to be congratulated and admired for your new status, for it to be important and worth celebrating.  Nothing wrong with the need - something wrong with choosing this particular person (even if she does happen to be your mother).  She won't/can't do it.  

If you 'stay in', can you stop yourself wanting her to meet your needs?   You say that you 'stay in' because of guilt so I assume you seek to meet her needs by staying in - and yet you get angry because she acts in a needy manner and doesn't try to meet your needs.  Are you there to meet her needs - or for her to meet your needs?  It's all jumbled up.  You don't want to have to meet her needs, she can't meet yours. If you know it consciously, there's a part of you that doesn't know it.  Abandon hope and you might just manage the relationship you hope for.

I wonder if you're thinking that, as she's your mother, she 'should' meet your needs and you 'shouldn't have to' meet hers?   I remember reading how damaging the word 'should' is.  The best we can hope for in life is to express a preference and a hope rather than an expectation or a demand.  If we can live with the former then we get less stressed; wanting the latter just leaves us feeling angry.

I'd prefer it if you ...(rather than 'I expect you to...)  Somehow there's more freedom in a preference - and it's less exhausting.

You sound as tho you are exhausting yourself with trying to control her behaviour. I don't think I meant 'teach her' how to behave but rather teach her about you and what your needs are and some of the ways in which she could meet them.  There's a difference between telling a person how to act and telling them what your needs are.

"Mum, I've got some really great news and I really want you to be pleased for me.  Do you think you can do that for me?  Is it a good day for you today?"

I can't see my mother responding to that!  But if she can't respond to that then I know not to share the news or I know not to have any expectations when I do share the news.  

We want them to accept us as we are - but it's just as huge a leap for us to be able to accept them for what they are and let go of wanting them to be different.  The day I accepted my mother's 'difference' (or at least one part of it) and was able to 'let go', my life turned around.  Writing this post, reminds me that I've been resting on my laurels and I have more work to do.  Accepting my mother's need to undermine me and be spiteful is next on my list.  The important thing is not to take it personally!!
R

[Nic]

Just as I can intuit that an event, a relationship, a moment or a circumstance has changed or is over in my day to day life I have come to realize that the same holds true for the experience I have had with two Narcissistic parents.
There is that inner knowing that my relationship with them is done.  As I look back over my lifetime, I clearly see how both my parents and indeed the family dynamic have never changed.  I changed. My destiny is no longer connected with that unit.  I'm not a monster who suddenly decided that because I wasn't getting my way I was hitting the highway.  My father has made some comments to that effect..after all that has happened and because of their inability to let me go Papa said to me one day, " You're just upset because I don't pay ALL your bills anymore!"
It was at that time I realized that in his mind I was the little boy, the little responsibility he had been lugging around for now forty years.  How sad!  I thought right then and there, OMG there it is again, another projection.  I had just finished reading the article recommended on this board entitled And now we are six.  It struck me hard that my N parents were 6 and sometimes 10 years old..it all fit.
But what do you do?  I thought, that means I WAS the grown-up when I reached 7 and 11 years of age.  My life flashed before me and I saw in my mind's eye the many times I had taken over certain situations, where I had been the leader, where I had been the parent.
And now at forty years of age to have it all tossed back at me in an immense reprimand for not having stuck to the tacit unspoken agreement of so many years ago, was greater than I thought I could withstand.  I don't know how I made it without going completely bonkers.  I realized then that I hadn't been living my life at all..but whose life was I living?  Not mine I concluded..WORSE..my parents were living their life through me..I was an immense doormat right smack in the middle of a high traffic area.  Like that throw rug immediately at the door, you know, the one that gets trampled on and dirty for about 4 feet until it begins to get cleaner.  The clean part is never clearly visible from the door and along those 4 feet, it has to be discovered as you make your way further into the house.  And then it fades and becomes something else..it blends into and with the rest of the decor.  And when you've been all through the house for the first time without an invitation but rather because you've determined to see and seek what lies beyond the four feet of dirt, you can return to the entrance doorway and see that there was more to the house then what you thought was there.
Now what did it take to go beyond the dirty rug?  Courage, curiosity, willpower, daring, a calling certainly..but more importantly and such is my life, an  invitation.  An invitation to go further, to explore, an interest in changing the scenery,and a search for freedom.
I've used the metaphore of the house as my life in my thoughts.  In my own house i was confined to that dirty 4 foot long high traffic area rug.  I was that rug.  My nmom and Ndad's horrible comments and actions toward me over the years pushed me over the edge.  Their cruelty, their Narcissism became so repulsive and repressive that it propelled me into my OWN life.  The oppression was strangling me, there was no more air and in order to survive I saw no other alternative but to jump into my own space.
It has been painful at times..many times.  Especially when you look around you and everyone else seems so happy.  Are they just going through the motions?  I became judgemental of other people's happiness as I was jealously pursuing my own.  What a way to live!  An exhausting way.  I had considered everything:  when I was younger thoughts of suicided used to soothe another blow from the Ns.  Sometimes it was a good time with friends.  I drank with them and smoked pot, even tried Cocaine once or twice..but never to any extreme..I kept myself sober to deal with the everyday assaults with a "clear head" I used to think..hmmph!  I was never NEVER out of control with anything..I was not too happy, not too sad, not too suicidal, not too responsible, not too independent, not too guarded, not too euphoric, not to dramatic etc etc.
I wished I could be more of some things like more loving, more tolerant of my friends, more carefree..but my parents had trained me so well not to be too anything that I was there..just existing and very pliable..my survival ,especially my emotional survival, depended on that.  I was the middle-man, everything went through me whether good or bad, I was the filter, that was my role.  Always living on the edge..not of something exciting but on the edge of disaster.  I wasn't allowed to live, i was adopted to serve.
When I realized that for REAL a year and a half ago, there was an explosion in my soul.  I guess God was ready to change me because I was ready to change.  I think that's what they mean when they say God is a patient God.  I feel he waited for me ..how nice of Him. God is a gentleman.
I dared go past the dirty rug, I allowed myself to go deeper into my own life and indeed to start living it.  I married the most unlikely person you could ever think of for me.  An older Scottish woman sent from God to be there for me and with me during my transformation.  It's amazing how much i've changed in the past eight years of my marriage.  It's nothing short of miraculous I was ever married too!  I was very solitary, and had never really thought this would happen to me, how could it? But it did. And, it was time.
No wonder my N mother exploded one day and screamed at me ( in french 'cos i'm french-speaking) " You've never been the same since you married that woman"..she also said that one day my wife called her a bitch..yep!  Actually she didn't to her face but you know how Ns are...I had the courage now to face the raging torrent ( my mom always appears as a dark raging torrent of water or a whirlwind..in any case it's always black and spinning!) and answer her: Well mom, you are!  And strangely enough, those words were the last I've spoken to her since around this time last year..Oi!
When it's going to change it will, it must.  When you hear your soul screaming at you that you're dying to live, leave everything behind and answer it " I'm coming!"  That's what I did.  Something wasn't allowing me to go on living the way I was.  I had no choice, I had to leave my Nparents, they were killing me.
That's clear in my mind and I only regret that there is nothing I could have said then or now really to make them understand.  They just can't.  And so they rage and drag me to court because I've broken my shackles and run off to live MY LIFE.  It was bound to happen, thank God it did.
blessings Nic.

[rosencrantz]

The oppression was strangling me, there was no more air and in order to survive I saw no other alternative but to jump into my own space.

You're right Nic, that's what saves us!!!  That's why I cut off from my parents after I moved away to go on to further education at the age of 19.  I'm not quite sure of all the details of our continued contact now.  I know they came to my university graduation - and made a thorough misery of it, I know I must have returned home on a couple of occasions, but I know I stopped going home for Christmas very early on.  Fortunately I found a part-time job which required me to work over Christmas!!  (I was always looking for valid excuses not to return and never went to family 'events'.)

Did they always phone me or did I used to call them - I don't remember. I was too involved in trying to survive living in the world - I had no idea that they were causing most of the misery I felt.  I was clearly an expert at denial!!!

I could not have survived even a year longer in their presence. But it's now 30 years on, and I'm too worn out to fight any more.  I hear my mother's pain.  I find it incredible that she has experienced so much bewilderment and pain - and never recognised her own contribution to the situation - the constant retribution, complaints, spite, and attempts to control - she hurts so much and there's nothing I can do to reach her without getting damaged myself.

I struggle to do things for her at a distance.  Every time I do something I say 'I know she won't appreciate it but never mind, I'll do it anyway', 'I know she'll find fault, but never mind', then sometimes 'I know she'll turn it all on its head and make it into the worst possible thing that could ever happen, so perhaps I'd better not'.  What a lot of nervous energy goes into every single day.

I think I'll phone her - I get very close to doing so - but, if it all goes wrong, I know my husband won't be hugely supportive any more.  I guess he'll support me still but he's adamant I shouldn't have any more contact with her.  He says that whatever the reasons, I should just look on it all as an allergic reaction.  I'm allergic to my mother.  <wry smile>

Today was my son's tenth birthday.  It is exactly a year ago since all this started to come out from behind the veil of denial. My mother ruined my son's birthday - from jealousy and fear and with spite.  And I finally started to ask 'why' - I sobbed and sobbed and sobbed - and I began to realise that the word 'bully' fitted what she did to me.  

And here I am today - still wondering, if I am my mother's daughter, am I the same or different.

What a terrible, terrible year (for which I am sadly grateful).
R

[Anonymous]

Nightsong,

Thanks for your post... I don't remember coming across your voice at this website before, it is nice to hear from you.  

When you mentioned feeling anxiety after reading about my contact with my mother recently I think you were right on in feeling the "slippery slope".  It may have been your stuff, but it is my stuff too - that's exactly how I felt when I was vascillating about going over to her house to "make it right".  I was battling my own needs vs. her needs - and truly, in the fashion of codependency having trouble identifying which is which..

How perceptive of your son to feel what he feels and acknowledge it as uncomfortable about his grandmother.  You must be doing a wonderful job of teaching him, or setting an example of, expressing himself.  If only we had that insight when we were children  

Nic,

Wow, you have really been doing some work this weekend!  I was glad that you clarified some of the details of your own parents.  It makes it easier for us to compare experiences.  We have all been here a while, and sometimes each other's pasts get overlapped in my head even though I had read this about you before.  But the info you shared brought me back again to the discussion we have had here at this board before about "degree" of narcissism and dysfunction that we have each been exposed to.  While I know each of our own pain is all relative (no pun intended   )  it becomes easier to understand why each of us are at the different points of healing that we are when we know the history of how we got there.

I felt terrible that you were under the impression that I was questioning your decision to cut off your parents.  This is not the case at all, and you certainly do not have to justify yourself to me or anyone else! (We did enough of that growing up!) My question about whether or not you would have made the same decision if your only one of your parents was alive was PURELY out of my own desire for you to see MY perspective (I'm afraid I was being narcissistic, please forgive me!)  It was in no way intended to make you feel as if you had not done the right thing, and I sincerely apologize if it came across that way.  I am certain, especially after the brief history you reminded me of - that you made the right choice for YOU and your happiness.

While I hear and see the wisdom in your healing and your experience sharing, I feel the pain as well.  It reminds me that regardless of where any of us are in this journey, it seems no less painful at any point.  I remember a while ago (I'm pretty sure it was you?) you were out fishing and were thinking "am I ever going to stop thinking about this stuff?"  Sorry if I have you confused with someone else.  I feel that frustration too though.

Something you said has been ringing in my ears since yesterday when I originally read your post:

adults take care of themselves..my N parents needed me as food to survive

This is the feeling that has been apparent to me for the last couple of years with my Nmother.  In fact, she has made it all too clear.  In the midst of this recent confrontation for example: she said, "I love you more than life itself".  Though she may have intended it as such, I did not feel love from that statement - instead I felt guilt and obligation.  And on top of that, I felt guilty for thinking that it made me feel guilty and obligated instead of loved!  How's that for a double whammy.

You also reminded me, though indirectly perhaps, that to obtain peace
I need to involve my higher power more.  Admittedly, I "forget" sometimes that I do not have to deal with this "alone".  I can give some to God to take care of.  I will be giving this some more conscious attention this holiday season.  

Lastly, Nic,  for that matter, I am not so sure I am making the right choice for me anyway     I am still working that out.

P.S., I never knew you were french-speaking.  My husband is a native of France.  Your English is impeccable and you are so articulate I never would have known.  My husband's French mother is an N also but not nearly as intense (degree) as mine.

Rosencrantz

I am so sorry to hear about your son's birthday.  I'm sure whatever you did and the love you gave him more than made up for whatever "she" did.  I know its hurting you terribly.  So often R, you come here with strength and wise words.  But I still hear the pain from you, many hugs and lots of comfort.  Next year will be a better year - you have grown soooo much.

And congratulations on your part-time job - this is HUGE, I know you have been pondering for a long time "getting back out there" I envy you. This is a milestone of your growth this year. I was strongly thinking about it too but now I have this excuse (pregnancy) ha!

Just want to clarify - I DO want my mother to change, I just don't feel that I can be the one to change her. She has to change herself, and I don't think she's capable of that without someone pointing her in the direction. Therefore I accept the way she is, because I am not going to spend my energy trying to "point the way".  

Once again, you dare to tread where others won't but you are almost always right.  You are perceptive in seeing that the desire to "fullfill" my mother's needs is somewhat my own attempts to get my own needs met.  I have discussed this in the past with my therapist.  It is the sick, twisted entwinement of codependency.  The truth is, I have yet to truly understand what my own needs are, which is why I struggle with the distance from my mom.  I have been entwined with her unhealthily for so long, I am unable to identify my own needs.  Yes, I am exhausting myself with trying to control her behavior, to a degree.  "Abandon hope" is what you recommended.  It sounds so final, but perhaps it needs to be considered.   I have already accepted who she is, perhaps I need to stop "hoping" for better.  On the other hand, when you spoke about stating a preference, you mentioned "hoping".  Its hard for any of us to let go of that hope, isn't it?

You mentioned in a another post recently something to the effect that once you stop feeling compassion or the opposite (anger was it?) that you have reached the healing point (neutral).  This comment made me feel optimistic, because when I "gave in" and went over to my mother's to "make things right", I felt neutral while she was crying and carrying on.  I comforted her by being there, but I did not feel guilty, compassionate, or angry. I still felt I had done the right thing even though she was so upset. This for me, is a step in the right direction because a year ago I would have been much more emotionally invested in the immediate circumstances.

Once I can figure out exactly what my needs are, I will try and communicate them to her.  For now, what I've asked her for is common decency and respect for her fellow human being, for me and my family.  That's about the best I can identify for her right now.

Thanks again all for working through this with me.  I know I should try and feel peaceful during the holidays, but I would be lying if I said I won't be glad when they're over.  Even though some growth has taken place, I am still uncomfortable with the changes I have brought forth with Nmother - and I know there will be some tension in testing out the new status over Christmas.

God Bless

[CC]

Crap, that was me above, got booted out and thought I was logged on... CC

[Kitti]

CC said: I do want to mention that while its possible she is not being sincere, she has been owning up to it and taking responsibility for the most part. She has said the words, "I know, I caused you great pain and I will never do anything like this again. I just never knew how you felt". Part of me I'm sure is denying the reality of her sincerity, and you see right through that. On the other hand, there are always varying degrees of this disorder depending on the individual, and this is the part that I struggle with sometimes (Just how sick is she?)

CC:  If you go back and think about the varied experiences with your mother, one very telling, of which you had shared in the "tickets to N theatre" message, you will know deep down, just how sick she is.  It might be easier for an outsider to see it, without question.    Same would go for me/anyone questioning our experience with N.

I wanted to kindly remind you that N's say so many things but as much as they might mean what they say in that moment, the Nism disorder, by its very nature, prevents them from sticking to them.   If they have a life long, emotional/psychological disorder, how can they not act the same as they always have?    All it will take is an appropriate trigger.

In theory (not a practical/physiology comparison) it is kind of like when an Alzheimer patient has moments of clarity and recognition.  It is wonderful, but it doesn't last.   The disorder has not been cured, and prior manifestations of it return in full force.    

It is great, and can even be somewhat healing when they acknowledge the pain they've caused and apologize.   On the other hand, I think we are self protected most when we take the words, cherish them for what they are but also realize that, if they are narcissistic, the N behavior has to return in full force.  

What your mother has said can be very healing for you, as it tells you that if she could, she would have chosen to have been very different with you, and also that she feels sorry she can't be different.  

Take that healing, embrace it, and at the same time, keep your appropriate emotional distance and new boundaries you have set.  

What she has said changes nothing outwardly, but it can help you to find some inner peace, and heal.  

Take Care

[rosencrantz]

LOL - the part-time job was when I was a student some 30 years ago - I think you were remembering posts by Echo about wanting to find a job (the 'five cents' post).   These days my excuse to keep away is the needs of 'my family' and the distance that separates us (the journey would be 'too difficult for her'!).  

No, having experienced N's in the workplace, I will never again risk finding myself at their mercy again - but I've been working on my own business for a number of years - I soon  discovered I had to work on my own personal development in that context if I wanted to succeed.  You just can't be the self-sacrificing goody two-shoes some of us learnt to be to appease our parents AND  succeed in business!!  I haven't found ways to stop being self-sacrificing but I have found ways round it.  I put huge efforts into supporting other people and helping them to succeed in a commercial context - I'm currently experiencing glorious success and earning a glorious living with an even more glorious future ahead!

It's a shame that, having expressed such glorious feelings, I'm now cowering in fright at the payback I anticipate for having so dared.  I recognise the legacy of my nMother but still can't escape it!

As far as needs are concerned, surely all the pain is because we still want the parenting, the mothering, we never got.  We're still wanting it, still angry we didn't get it, still wanting payback, still wanting love and compassion and empathy for OURSELVES!  I know that 'all' I want is for my mother to acknowledge me (hah!), to appreciate my efforts, to say I 'done well', to recognise that I have a good heart and a kind soul...

...so that I can just plain REST, so I can stop striving to do stuff, to be perfect, to please (her), to get everything right, to be right, to look after the whole bloody world in an attempt to get one smidgeon of her acceptance as a decent, kind human being.

I groan at myself for simply being unable to emotionally process what my mind sees so well.  

But I also remember the amount of shame I had to experience before I could acknowledge the need. And I'm not sure I'll ever choose to express to her the need since I've already discovered to my cost how spiteful she will be if she spots a chink in my armour.  And these days I have so many chinks in my armour - a positive sign in general but lethal if you have to deal with an N!!!

And, yes, CC - you did real well with your mother when you went to see her.  Indifference wins.  Congrats!!!

TTFN
R

[CC]

Going to spend an hour or two shopping with mother today to "break the ice" before the Christmas holiday.  I feel peaceful about it.  I feel detached, that it will be different today.  The challenge now and in the future is to restrain myself from offering too much personal information..  I think if I can manage that I will be home free.  I'll let you all know how it goes (maybe you're sick of hearing about it, but it helps me to verbalize it all here even if no one is listening!)

Sorry Rosen, not paying well enough attention .  You are right, I was confusing you with Echo in her pursuit of a new career.  

P.S.  I was wondering what you all thought of this idea.  I am considering buying my mother a book for Christmas that be about what it means to be a good, supportive person in someone's life.  I'm not sure what book yet, but definitely not about Narcissism - she would feel attacked or whatever, and then I would be "trying to change her". (I already had sent her an article about that months ago and she said something like "this doesn't apply to me" ha!

 I know I won't be able to change her.  However, I  believe she would be open to reading something that would help our relationship as long as it wasn't something like I was pointing out her wrongs and attacking her. Since she is particularly feeling vulnerable right now, perhaps it would be helpful, even if temporary. It would be more objective, like some book that would point out what it means to be a good friend or something.  She might not even apply it, but for my benefit in the long run and I don't see how it can hurt.  Any thoughts?  If I am being too hopeful and unrealistic feel free to slap me into my senses, it was just an idea.  has anyone tried this, or would they?

[Simon46]

Hi CC:

I know that if I were to give my mother any kind of book that even hinted at self improvement of any kind, it would definitely be perceived as a spiteful personal attack, and me trying to “get” her, no matter how kind my intentions were. I would never do it for that reason. Having said that, I don’t know how your mother would react. I would guess that the really important thing here is not whether you do it or not, but how attached you are to her reaction. If she approves, great. If she doesn’t and instead gets defensive, counterattacks or punishes you, are you OK with that? Can you laugh it off and say to yourself Hmmm, Sure enough…Interesting…Just as I thought…Are you to the point yet where she can say hurtful things to you and you can know they are not true? Where she can try to sound vicious and cruel and you can say Ahhh – yep there she goes again, Oh well, I threw it out there. What is your true motivation in giving her the book? Is it to make her “see?” What is your need to fix her? What is your need to make her see? (Simon sounding like a therapist here). Do you believe you can make her see?  I am full of rhetorical questions with no answers here!

[Anonymous]

CC,

Any book that hints at self-help, no matter what its stated topic, will evoke a negative response. I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to see her go off the deep end again.

bunny

[CC]

ha ha Simon, I like your rhetorical questions!    Actually, my intent for the book was not necessarily to "make her see", it was more, to SHUT HER UP.  To teach her how to  let me alone, and just not tell me how to feel, what to be and what choices to make. To accept the choices I have made in life without a peep.  To not criticize me or the people I choose to be close to in my life (other than her).    I was hoping not to change her, (not because I wouldn't want to, but I know I can't) because she will always have the sick thoughts and twisted critical logic - but rather to learn to shut up and not share her sick thoughts with me because they are hurtful.  

I know already she will never see what a narcissist is, or what borderline personality disorder is, and how it applies to her.  So the magic boook I had in mind would be one that simply told how to be a quiet, supportive bystander in the life of someone you love.  But I think you are right, I am fooling myself.  Perhaps Bunny is right on, any book is going to be perceived as a negative, regardless of my intentions.

And Simon, you are right again..Even though I am sort of sure she wouldn't be angry with me for giving her a book, the possibility that she might react hurtfully is not something I am prepared for.  I see how I am putting myself in danger.  And after spending time with her yesterday, I feel even more sure that I am not yet neutral enough to handle her antics.

We went to a few stores yesterday for Christmas shopping and I could feel myself slipping into old habits with her already.  Against my plans I found myself going on and on telling her all sorts of personal information about my husbands' ex wife and her 2nd husband, and how my stepdaughter gets along at her house, etc.  This is exactly the kind of conversations that later come back to haunt me somehow, and cause her to form negative opinions of my stepdaughter, my husband, or whatever.  Even as I was speaking the words to her, I immediately regretted it, WHAT WAS I THINKING?

I have been so "close" with my mother for so long (I use the term "close" loosely because what it really is  is unhealthy entwinement on my part) that I have trouble stopping myself from sharing this information.  I also noticed yesterday that some of it is actually NERVOUS CHATTER, that I am filling what would probably be uncomfortable silences with valuable conversation to prevent myself from boredom or irritation, or hearing her negative comments about others!!!  I guess I have always done this, and never realized how much it might be setting myself up.

Just to give you an example of her day to day grandiosity, negativity and prejudice: My mom and I were getting into the car to leave a store in a parking lot, and the lady in the car parked next to us was picking her nose, I mean, really digging and getting into it.    The nose-picker lady was completely aware that we were next to her and looked at her, and she just didn't care, she just continued picking in earnest.  I mentioned my amusement with this lady to my Nmom, saying how funny it was that she just didn't care if we saw her do this, and my mother was absolutely horrified, replying "OH, its absolutely disgusting, and its because she's a foreigner (she looked of latino descent).  Those foreigners are ignorant, low class and have no manners whatsoever!"

This is the kind of comments that make me cringe inside. Granted, this was definitely bad manners. I wish I could tell you that I am completely free of prejudices and generalizations, but I would be lying - and I think as human beings we all have biases based on our personal life experiences whether we admit them or not.  However, I try to give each person a fair shot, particularly if I've never met them; but that's not what this was really about.  More importantly, it was the inablity for her to see the humor in the situation - it was about her need to feel superior to another human being.

In the past I have said things such as "I really would appreciate it if you wouldn't make generalized comments such as that as I find it offensive", or , sometimes even trying to get her to realize her prejudices - saying "I've seen all walks of life pick their nose in the same fashion, and don't think it has anything to do with nationality"   .  But I have done this so many times it is truly fruitless.  So I choose to ignore it, and usually change the subject.

I communicate with intimately my husband and close friends, and even here.  I am very open.  It is extremely difficult for me to shut up.  I don't even know how to, it is against my entire personality. I am not interested in superficial relationships with other people, but this is how it has to be with mother, and I don't know how to go about it. It is truly an excercise in self control.

thank you for talking me out getting a book for her, I know I'm not willing to suffer the reprocussions, and it is just probably not a good idea.

CC

[KateW]

Hi CC and All,

You all are truly amazing - this board is such a help. CC, you are doing so great.

I remember seeing this poem a few years ago and it made quite an impact on me - before I even knew about N's:

Children

by Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children:
They are the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.