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Overwhelming Guilt/Pity - Help

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rosencrantz:

--- Quote ---The oppression was strangling me, there was no more air and in order to survive I saw no other alternative but to jump into my own space.
--- End quote ---


You're right Nic, that's what saves us!!!  That's why I cut off from my parents after I moved away to go on to further education at the age of 19.  I'm not quite sure of all the details of our continued contact now.  I know they came to my university graduation - and made a thorough misery of it, I know I must have returned home on a couple of occasions, but I know I stopped going home for Christmas very early on.  Fortunately I found a part-time job which required me to work over Christmas!!  (I was always looking for valid excuses not to return and never went to family 'events'.)

Did they always phone me or did I used to call them - I don't remember. I was too involved in trying to survive living in the world - I had no idea that they were causing most of the misery I felt.  I was clearly an expert at denial!!!

I could not have survived even a year longer in their presence. But it's now 30 years on, and I'm too worn out to fight any more.  I hear my mother's pain.  I find it incredible that she has experienced so much bewilderment and pain - and never recognised her own contribution to the situation - the constant retribution, complaints, spite, and attempts to control - she hurts so much and there's nothing I can do to reach her without getting damaged myself.

I struggle to do things for her at a distance.  Every time I do something I say 'I know she won't appreciate it but never mind, I'll do it anyway', 'I know she'll find fault, but never mind', then sometimes 'I know she'll turn it all on its head and make it into the worst possible thing that could ever happen, so perhaps I'd better not'.  What a lot of nervous energy goes into every single day.

I think I'll phone her - I get very close to doing so - but, if it all goes wrong, I know my husband won't be hugely supportive any more.  I guess he'll support me still but he's adamant I shouldn't have any more contact with her.  He says that whatever the reasons, I should just look on it all as an allergic reaction.  I'm allergic to my mother.  <wry smile>

Today was my son's tenth birthday.  It is exactly a year ago since all this started to come out from behind the veil of denial. My mother ruined my son's birthday - from jealousy and fear and with spite.  And I finally started to ask 'why' - I sobbed and sobbed and sobbed - and I began to realise that the word 'bully' fitted what she did to me.  

And here I am today - still wondering, if I am my mother's daughter, am I the same or different.

What a terrible, terrible year (for which I am sadly grateful).
R

Anonymous:
Nightsong,

Thanks for your post... I don't remember coming across your voice at this website before, it is nice to hear from you.  

When you mentioned feeling anxiety after reading about my contact with my mother recently I think you were right on in feeling the "slippery slope".  It may have been your stuff, but it is my stuff too - that's exactly how I felt when I was vascillating about going over to her house to "make it right".  I was battling my own needs vs. her needs - and truly, in the fashion of codependency having trouble identifying which is which..

How perceptive of your son to feel what he feels and acknowledge it as uncomfortable about his grandmother.  You must be doing a wonderful job of teaching him, or setting an example of, expressing himself.  If only we had that insight when we were children  :wink:

Nic,

Wow, you have really been doing some work this weekend!  I was glad that you clarified some of the details of your own parents.  It makes it easier for us to compare experiences.  We have all been here a while, and sometimes each other's pasts get overlapped in my head even though I had read this about you before.  But the info you shared brought me back again to the discussion we have had here at this board before about "degree" of narcissism and dysfunction that we have each been exposed to.  While I know each of our own pain is all relative (no pun intended  :D )  it becomes easier to understand why each of us are at the different points of healing that we are when we know the history of how we got there.

I felt terrible that you were under the impression that I was questioning your decision to cut off your parents.  This is not the case at all, and you certainly do not have to justify yourself to me or anyone else! (We did enough of that growing up!) My question about whether or not you would have made the same decision if your only one of your parents was alive was PURELY out of my own desire for you to see MY perspective (I'm afraid I was being narcissistic, please forgive me!)  It was in no way intended to make you feel as if you had not done the right thing, and I sincerely apologize if it came across that way.  I am certain, especially after the brief history you reminded me of - that you made the right choice for YOU and your happiness.

While I hear and see the wisdom in your healing and your experience sharing, I feel the pain as well.  It reminds me that regardless of where any of us are in this journey, it seems no less painful at any point.  I remember a while ago (I'm pretty sure it was you?) you were out fishing and were thinking "am I ever going to stop thinking about this stuff?"  Sorry if I have you confused with someone else.  I feel that frustration too though.

Something you said has been ringing in my ears since yesterday when I originally read your post:


--- Quote ---adults take care of themselves..my N parents needed me as food to survive

--- End quote ---


This is the feeling that has been apparent to me for the last couple of years with my Nmother.  In fact, she has made it all too clear.  In the midst of this recent confrontation for example: she said, "I love you more than life itself".  Though she may have intended it as such, I did not feel love from that statement - instead I felt guilt and obligation.  And on top of that, I felt guilty for thinking that it made me feel guilty and obligated instead of loved!  How's that for a double whammy.

You also reminded me, though indirectly perhaps, that to obtain peace
I need to involve my higher power more.  Admittedly, I "forget" sometimes that I do not have to deal with this "alone".  I can give some to God to take care of.  I will be giving this some more conscious attention this holiday season.  

Lastly, Nic,  for that matter, I am not so sure I am making the right choice for me anyway  :oops:   I am still working that out.

P.S., I never knew you were french-speaking.  My husband is a native of France.  Your English is impeccable and you are so articulate I never would have known.  My husband's French mother is an N also but not nearly as intense (degree) as mine.

Rosencrantz

I am so sorry to hear about your son's birthday.  I'm sure whatever you did and the love you gave him more than made up for whatever "she" did.  I know its hurting you terribly.  So often R, you come here with strength and wise words.  But I still hear the pain from you, many hugs and lots of comfort.  Next year will be a better year - you have grown soooo much.

And congratulations on your part-time job - this is HUGE, I know you have been pondering for a long time "getting back out there" I envy you. This is a milestone of your growth this year. I was strongly thinking about it too but now I have this excuse (pregnancy) ha!

Just want to clarify - I DO want my mother to change, I just don't feel that I can be the one to change her. She has to change herself, and I don't think she's capable of that without someone pointing her in the direction. Therefore I accept the way she is, because I am not going to spend my energy trying to "point the way".  

Once again, you dare to tread where others won't but you are almost always right.  You are perceptive in seeing that the desire to "fullfill" my mother's needs is somewhat my own attempts to get my own needs met.  I have discussed this in the past with my therapist.  It is the sick, twisted entwinement of codependency.  The truth is, I have yet to truly understand what my own needs are, which is why I struggle with the distance from my mom.  I have been entwined with her unhealthily for so long, I am unable to identify my own needs.  Yes, I am exhausting myself with trying to control her behavior, to a degree.  "Abandon hope" is what you recommended.  It sounds so final, but perhaps it needs to be considered.   I have already accepted who she is, perhaps I need to stop "hoping" for better.  On the other hand, when you spoke about stating a preference, you mentioned "hoping".  Its hard for any of us to let go of that hope, isn't it? :lol:

You mentioned in a another post recently something to the effect that once you stop feeling compassion or the opposite (anger was it?) that you have reached the healing point (neutral).  This comment made me feel optimistic, because when I "gave in" and went over to my mother's to "make things right", I felt neutral while she was crying and carrying on.  I comforted her by being there, but I did not feel guilty, compassionate, or angry. I still felt I had done the right thing even though she was so upset. This for me, is a step in the right direction because a year ago I would have been much more emotionally invested in the immediate circumstances.

Once I can figure out exactly what my needs are, I will try and communicate them to her.  For now, what I've asked her for is common decency and respect for her fellow human being, for me and my family.  That's about the best I can identify for her right now.

Thanks again all for working through this with me.  I know I should try and feel peaceful during the holidays, but I would be lying if I said I won't be glad when they're over.  Even though some growth has taken place, I am still uncomfortable with the changes I have brought forth with Nmother - and I know there will be some tension in testing out the new status over Christmas.

God Bless

CC:
Crap, that was me above, got booted out and thought I was logged on... CC

Kitti:
CC said: I do want to mention that while its possible she is not being sincere, she has been owning up to it and taking responsibility for the most part. She has said the words, "I know, I caused you great pain and I will never do anything like this again. I just never knew how you felt". Part of me I'm sure is denying the reality of her sincerity, and you see right through that. On the other hand, there are always varying degrees of this disorder depending on the individual, and this is the part that I struggle with sometimes (Just how sick is she?)

CC:  If you go back and think about the varied experiences with your mother, one very telling, of which you had shared in the "tickets to N theatre" message, you will know deep down, just how sick she is.  It might be easier for an outsider to see it, without question.    Same would go for me/anyone questioning our experience with N.

I wanted to kindly remind you that N's say so many things but as much as they might mean what they say in that moment, the Nism disorder, by its very nature, prevents them from sticking to them.   If they have a life long, emotional/psychological disorder, how can they not act the same as they always have?    All it will take is an appropriate trigger.

In theory (not a practical/physiology comparison) it is kind of like when an Alzheimer patient has moments of clarity and recognition.  It is wonderful, but it doesn't last.   The disorder has not been cured, and prior manifestations of it return in full force.    

It is great, and can even be somewhat healing when they acknowledge the pain they've caused and apologize.   On the other hand, I think we are self protected most when we take the words, cherish them for what they are but also realize that, if they are narcissistic, the N behavior has to return in full force.  

What your mother has said can be very healing for you, as it tells you that if she could, she would have chosen to have been very different with you, and also that she feels sorry she can't be different.  

Take that healing, embrace it, and at the same time, keep your appropriate emotional distance and new boundaries you have set.  

What she has said changes nothing outwardly, but it can help you to find some inner peace, and heal.  

Take Care

rosencrantz:
LOL - the part-time job was when I was a student some 30 years ago - I think you were remembering posts by Echo about wanting to find a job (the 'five cents' post).   These days my excuse to keep away is the needs of 'my family' and the distance that separates us (the journey would be 'too difficult for her'!).  

No, having experienced N's in the workplace, I will never again risk finding myself at their mercy again - but I've been working on my own business for a number of years - I soon  discovered I had to work on my own personal development in that context if I wanted to succeed.  You just can't be the self-sacrificing goody two-shoes some of us learnt to be to appease our parents AND  succeed in business!!  I haven't found ways to stop being self-sacrificing but I have found ways round it.  I put huge efforts into supporting other people and helping them to succeed in a commercial context - I'm currently experiencing glorious success and earning a glorious living with an even more glorious future ahead!

It's a shame that, having expressed such glorious feelings, I'm now cowering in fright at the payback I anticipate for having so dared.  I recognise the legacy of my nMother but still can't escape it!

As far as needs are concerned, surely all the pain is because we still want the parenting, the mothering, we never got.  We're still wanting it, still angry we didn't get it, still wanting payback, still wanting love and compassion and empathy for OURSELVES!  I know that 'all' I want is for my mother to acknowledge me (hah!), to appreciate my efforts, to say I 'done well', to recognise that I have a good heart and a kind soul...

...so that I can just plain REST, so I can stop striving to do stuff, to be perfect, to please (her), to get everything right, to be right, to look after the whole bloody world in an attempt to get one smidgeon of her acceptance as a decent, kind human being.

I groan at myself for simply being unable to emotionally process what my mind sees so well.  

But I also remember the amount of shame I had to experience before I could acknowledge the need. And I'm not sure I'll ever choose to express to her the need since I've already discovered to my cost how spiteful she will be if she spots a chink in my armour.  And these days I have so many chinks in my armour - a positive sign in general but lethal if you have to deal with an N!!!

And, yes, CC - you did real well with your mother when you went to see her.  Indifference wins.  Congrats!!!

TTFN
R

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