Forgiveness, Take Two

[seeker]

Hi everyone,

I checked the site (forgiveness.org) that I recommended on the other forum, but it's under construction right now.  So I thought I would try to summarize the basic points since the holidays are here!  

Myths About Forgiveness

Forgiveness is not about glossing over wrongs.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu: "Forgiveness is taking seriously the awfulness of what has happened when you are treated unfairly.  Forgiveness is not pretending that things are other than the way they are."
Forgiveness is not amnesia.
"Forgiveness does not equal forgetting.  It is about healing the memory of the harm, not erasing it." Dr. Ken Hart.  The offense is still part of your history, but it does not have to dominate your life.
Forgiveness is not pardoning, condoning, or excusing: forgiveness does not remove consequences.
Pope John Paul II forgave his intended assassin in a face-to-face encounter.  The individual remains in prison where he can do no further harm.
Forgiveness does not have to include reconciliation; forgiveness is not the same as trusting.
The injured party can forgive an offender even though the offender may never (or for safety sake, must never) be a part of his or her life in the future.
"Forgiveness is not a magic trick that allows us to control other people"
--Robert D. Enright
Even if you change, the other person may not. Each person has free will.

Truths About Forgiveness

Forgiveness is empathy.
"I think it means...putting yourself in the position of the other person, and wiping away any sort of resentment and antagonism you feel toward them." Jimmy Carter
Forgiveness is essential to recovery.
"When a deep injury is done to us, we never recover until we forgive." Alan Paton, author of Cry, the Beloved Country
"Forgiving is an act of mercy toward an offender.  We are no longer controlled by angry feelings toward this person."--Robert D. Enright, Forgiveness is a Choice
Forgiveness is a journey to freedom.
"Forgiveness works directly on the emotion of anger (and related constructs such as resentment, hostility, or hatred) by diminishing its intensity or level within the mind and heart."  --Richard Fitzgibbons

I hope this helps as we all navigate through new dynamics during the holidays.  Thoughts?  Take care, S.

[CC]

Hi Seeker,

Did not want your thread to go unnoticed.  Thank you for taking the time to copy these words.  They are especially appropriate for my own life right now.

Happy Holidays, CC

[Gingerpeach]

This is a quote about "Forgiveness" from Diane Wilson's pages, I don't have the website handy, I think it is an abuse survivors website.  Anyway, this really resonated with me.  I left my N husband in March and the recovery is slow, but I am finally getting back in touch with the "me" that he tried his best to destroy. I have been lurking around this website for a year and this is my first post.  I will eventually tell you all my story......

So, here's the quote  "For me, forgiveness was something that happened fairly late in recovery. Here are a few thoughts..." Forgiveness is something that you do for yourself. More than anything else, it is letting go of any expectation that the other person will change. It is letting go of any expectation of apology, or of recognition and acknowledgement of wrong-doing. It is acknowledging to yourself that the other person acted in the only way that this person could act.

Forgiveness does not mean turning the other cheek. If a person who has wronged you in the past has the capability to hurt you again, you have every right to protect yourself. Forgiveness does not require that you extend trust. This kind of forgiveness is not dependent on the other person changing, so the only safe assumption for you is that this person has not changed.

In so many cases, the underlying issue is a broken promise of one sort or another. In my case, my childhood was taken away from me by abusive and controlling parents, and by an emotionally empty father. I have forgiven them for being who they were, but this does not in any way begin to fulfill the needs I had as a child, and that I still need. Forgiving my parents, and letting go of any expectation that they ever could have been adequate parents, means that I have to take ownership of those unfulfilled needs. Now that I know those needs will never be met by my parents, I am free to fill those needs for myself. In the end, forgiveness is freedom. It is a gift to yourself. It is release.

[Argusina]

I think one aspect of forgiveness can be expressed through this very telling anecdote:

Nobel prize winner and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel was telling his rabbi about all the torture and horrors he would put the Nazis through as revenge. The rabbi remained silent for quite a while and then looked straight into young Elie's eyes and said:

"I see. You have become one of them".

[Argusina]

That sentence changed Elie's life.

[seeker]

Greetings CC, Gingerpeach and Argusina,

This is a long overdue acknowledgement to everyone's thoughtful replies.  I still feel some guilt over my new position with regards to some of the toxic situations in my life, so reading the forgiveness posts really helps me esp. during the holidays when everything is supposed to revert to the picture book version of family.  You know, all the "shoulds" and "supposed to be's".  

Argusina, thank you very much for the anecdote about Elie Wiesel.  The concept of retaliation is something that bothers me a lot and this story will help me.  I know many people who must retaliate when they have been wronged and I try not to because I know that will make me just like them.  But I sometimes feel incredibly weak and wimpy when in reality it is very difficult to restrain oneself!  I also need to remind myself that my position is not to punish anyone else but to protect myself and my family.  

You all may be interested in Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning.  He was a holocaust survivor and a psychiatrist.  His insights are wonderful and his writing is very accessible.  Get it as a present to yourself!  

Peace to you for the holidays!  Seeker.

[seeker]

Hi all.

This is for Survivor and everyone struggling to let go of anger.  

Survivor, I don't want you to think that I think you shouldn't be angry. Anger is really important!  Someone in this thread pointed out that forgiveness comes late in the process of recovery. No one can wave a magic wand to take the pain away.  But you'll get to a better place since you are working through these things and asking about them.  

Peace, Seeker

[Survivor]

I really appreciate the threads on forgiveness.  I have struggled for years trying to forgive my N mother.  I know forgiveness is a CHOICE and I do choose to forgive her.  I have prayed through the years to forgive her.  When she pulls another "stunt" I have "feelings" about it and immediately think I haven't forgiven her.  (I have to remember they are just feelings - my choice to forgive is still there)  It's best I just stay away from her to deflect the chance of getting offended again and again.  (Even when I try not to take offense)  She cooks up such rancid lies about me and says that I say things about people when I haven't.  It just gets my blood boiling again.    I know I need to look at her with empathy and know she is hurting probably much more than I ever have.    I had not seen her in about 7 years when my dad became ill.  It was like she had never changed, only gotten worse with time.  Before that, I had not seen her in about 5 years.  I have kept my distance for almost 20 years.  I will keep working on forgiveness and having empathy for her.  How sad her life must be.  At least I am sane and have the tools to move forward.  I also have this forum which is a God send to me!  

I know I also choose to forgive my sister and my dad . . . I guess I'm just having the "feelings" that go along with them not standing up for me.  I know their lives were hell on earth too.  They did play different roles than I did.  I just need to have the feelings and then let them go.  I need to grieve.

Thanks again . . .

Survivor

[phoenix]

bye

[rosencrantz]

That's great phoenix - it seems that once we understand the concept of true narcissism, we have to re-evaluate every value we ever had.  Nothing is ever quite so simple again.

Survivor, I just want to say that indifference is better!  Perhaps forgiveness is relevant to the way your sister and dad acted. And once you have acknowledged that you want to forgive your mother, then the next step is indifference so she doesn't get a chance to keep doing things that you have to forgive all over again.
R

[Anonymous]

Rosencrantz,

Thanks for the "indifference" info . . .

Survivor, I just want to say that indifference is better! Perhaps forgiveness is relevant to the way your sister and dad acted. And once you have acknowledged that you want to forgive your mother, then the next step is indifference so she doesn't get a chance to keep doing things that you have to forgive all over again.

I think I already feel indifferent towards her.  Actually, I feel NOTHING at all for her (would you say that is close or the same as indifferent?).  I don't feel love or hate or anything . . . it's like I've been down that road with her so many times, I know she is not worth it, so I feel nothing at all for her.  I have learned (from endless times of having my boundaries crossed) to keep my distance from her or I WILL feel the brunt of her madness.  I have a BIG, HUGE boundary with her that I have had in place for almost 20 years.  Having to go through my dad's illness and then the funeral for him was hard.  It was impossible to not be around her, even though I stayed physically away from her as much as possible.  She was chasing after me at every opportunity and I had to completely not even look at her (which made her incensed!)  

I am still feeling angry at my dad for never protecting us and never standing up for me.  I know it's a process and I'll be glad when I'm not angry at him anymore.  I actually had a dream the other night I was sorting laundry and I put my dad in a washing machine with the laundry   and stuck a gun to the side of the washer and pulled the trigger . . .     I looked up the dream on www.dreammood.com and doing laundry means cleaning up your act, sorting laundry means you're trying to understand your feelings and you're trying to sort your attitude.  The gun symbolizes aggression and anger and if you are shooting someone with a gun it symbolizes aggressive feelings and hidden anger towards that person.  I guess my dream was right on, but it was weird at the time!

Thanks again for your input . . . very much appreciated!

Survivor

[Survivor]

That was me . . . Survivor . . . forgot to Log on!  

[Anonymous]

This may be of interest to the current thread on forgetting childhood.
the cite is www.forgiving.org  
under "working to forgive" on the left side
and then "myths"  "truths"  etc.  
I haven't read or thought enough of it at this juncture to judge whether it excludes the potential harms we have been discussing.  So, just for the sake of discussion, here it is.

[DesolateFox]

This is part of a dream I found posted on a dream board, words the poster was given in her dream:

"Forgiveness is a must. However, forgiveness is not up to you. It is not your prerogative. Forgiveness which leads back to dominance/submission is not forgiveness. Both dominator and submissive one must be changed, neither maintaining his/her previous stance. It is solely mutual understanding that can achieve this state. It is not yet."

This is what I feel is required for me to have any kind of relationship with my dad. And reading it, I feel empowered. It addresses the basic problem one encounters when dealing with forgiveness with an N- the power play.

Wow.  That's a pretty incredible dream that person had.  Very illuminating.

I won't forgive until my mother stops hurting me!  I have taken steps to detach from her (and my father, for whom right now I am in more of a forgiving or detached state), though I find myself sucked back in too easily.  If it were only a matter of childhood hurts, I'd be over it.  I did all that therapy.  But I made the mistake of thinking I had forgiven her years ago, when all I did was totally let her back in to dominate me.  I was going through a divorce and have a serious chronic illness, and I ended up letting her cry all over my shoulder all the time in the name of Jesus.  I forgot the part where my prayers definitely were answered with "don't give yourself away," and jumped to the letting others suck me dry in the guise of "being there for me."  

Forgiveness is a difficult thing.  Once you really get there, I don't think the person has the power over you anymore, it's just indifference as someone else mentioned.  But sometimes, I find myself thinking I've forgiven, and I let them do worlds of hurt to me.  It's part of being the child of 2 N's, I think.  I am so used to putting others first, that even in my own spiritual development, I am willing to take a back seat when others feel they need something.  Anything.

I have joined Co-Dependents Anon online, because of my relationship with my husband and my own illness keeping me from in person meetings.  I haven't attempted any 12 step work in over 10 years, but I have been feeling like I have totally lost my way, and if I keep thinking things will just change, or my behavior can change him, I'm just going to keep sabotaging myself.  I am hoping that with that and with keeping up here, I can start to get myself to a healthier place and maybe my body will come along with my mind.