Confusing criticism

[Sela]

 

So much n-talk has me confused and feeling like a dope.  For instance, for years, one of my abusers criticised me for washing the dishes, saying things like:

"I can't believe you don't have a dish washer yet!" and

"Nooooooooooobody washes dishes by hand these days exceptttttttttttt you!" and

"Whyyyyyyyy don't youuuuuuuuuuuuu want a dishwasher????  You're sooooooo thennnnn!" (add disgusted, belittling, or otherwise insultive tone to each of these comments/questions please).

How did I respond?  By defending my desire to wash dishes by hand, as if it were a crime and I somehow felt "caught".  And I always feel dumb afterward, like I could have responded differently/more appropriately.  I would analyse the situation and try to guess why this person would say such things......and I came to my own hypothesises about that butttttttt.........so what?  It still happened over and over and I feeeeeeeeel like I allowed it.

The other day, another person made a similar comment about my cooking meals for my husband.

"I can't believe you're stillllllllllllllll doing that!!!"

Again...........there I went........off on a nice, neat defend-myself from prosecution spree.   Trying to justify my choice to this person.  Giving reasons and explanations.  Thinking "how rude and invasive" and wondering why this person was saying this.......finding reasons too, imo.

I feel N'd every time I defend and explain.
Does anyone else do this?

What do other people do when you receive these invasive comments from others (or do you?).

I feel so stupid after these exchanges and I don't know how else to deal.  I think one of the biggest problems I have is that no matter how many rude, ignorant, one-uppers I meet in this world........I am always somehow shocked... .......by their sly and insulting manner.   I don't put others down for their simple choices that have absolutely no effect on me and are none of my business, and I am blown away by people who do it.  I know one way is to avoid these types, but in this case..........the person is unavoidable.  What might be a better way to deal with them?

This might sound like a small problem but it feels big to me.  Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Sela

[Hopalong]

I think we can get so whittled down that we lose all confidence. Sometimes I read columnists like Miss Manners. They always suggest these graceful ways of deflecting that sort of thing. I think they'd be hard to fake, but maybe after (really) a lot of practicing in the mirror, you could find yourself responding to an "I can't belieeeeeve you____" type of remark with (depending on which one suits the person and relationship):

--a happy little laugh, and "I know, isn't it funny? I just like doing it." Happy affectionate-to-self laugh, continue washing.
--a look of confusion and "Are you upset about something today?"
--a frosty "I beg your pardon?" (perhaps for obnoxious strangers)
--complete silence. No response. Maintaining inner peace. Letting their remark hang in mid-air. Breathing quietly. Seeing what happens. Noticing, but without anxiety. Just mildly curious. Or perhaps not even feeling interested enough for that.

I'd love to hear how it works if you try one! It's all symbolic of general healthy assertiveness, I don't think it's trivial at all. It's practice.
Hopalong

[Hopalong]

Wow. You just blew superficial manners-isms out of the water.

Thank you.
Hopalong

[Gail]

You could also try brutal honesty, unless you think it would do more harm than good.

For example, you could say in response to a put down.  "I don't like it when you speak to me that way.  Please don't." 

The person may reply, "I was only kidding."

Your reply, "I still don't like it.  Please stop."

If he/she keeps at it.  Take out the word, "Please."

The old broken record technique.  That person knows what she's doing and is counting on confusing you and making you think you are somehow at fault.  You've now "called her bluff" and let her know that the gig is up.

I've had to do that with an abusive family member.  It was really tough at first, but she finally caught on.  I have zero tolerance and will hang up on her and also ask her to leave my house.  Haven't had to do that in awhile as she caught on. 

Gail

[October]

I read recently about non defensive responses to stuff like this.  Apparently, what you have to do is to turn into Mary Poppins, who never explains anything.     Instead you respond with a non committal comment such as:

That is an interesting point of view
Do you really think so?
Oh?
How fascinating!
Well I never!

etc etc - can't remember any more. 

Apparently, if you defend yourself or your beliefs/lifestyle, then you give them the chance to withhold approval and then belittle you and hence make themselves feel better/bigger/stronger than you.  If you don't defend, then they are left on a little island of opinion, with nowhere to go.

There is no chance whatever of them even listening to what you say, so why bother?   

[Hopalong]

If you don't defend, then they are left on a little island of opinion, with nowhere to go.

This is so brilliant I can't stand it. I told my T tonight about discovering this forum and how blown away I am by the wise ones here.

Hopalong

[vunil]

Being pregnant and having a small baby somehow brings out the obnoxious unsolicited advice/criticism devils from all corners.  Complete strangers want to lecture you about what to do (and tell you you are wrong).

In the funny book "The Girlfriends' Guide to the First Year" (or something like that) the author talks about how people will ask you really invasive questions, like when a complete stranger asks if you plan to breastfeed.  She suggests asking them what they think you should do and then saying, sweetly "Oh!  Well then I'll do that, then!"

I have adopted a similar strategy with strangers who offer advice.  I just let them know that it is ridiculous to expect me to listen to them (or care what they say) by saying something like "oh!  I'll switch what I was planning to do immediately!"  If I am not feeling bitchy enough to say something like that, I say, pointedly, "I have already decided how I am going to do this" or "well, my pediatrician recommended X and I am only going to listen to him on this one." 

With my parents, who continually tell me I am wrong (and I think that those of us with issues about this get it from having such parents or caregivers, or at least I do), I haven't figured out the perfect strategy.  I have tried utterly ignoring them, I have said things like "I wasn't really wondering what to do, actually" and I have argued with them.  The latter works not one bit and as everyone has noticed is demoralizing in the extreme (defending my own decisions!  Argh!).  If people are prone to criticize every little thing, then avoiding them is the only really feasible strategy I think.

I do think that not cutting off the advice-givers gives them permission to keep doing it, but I agree it's tough to figure out how to cut them off in just the right way.

[mum]

hey, Sela. I think you may have noticed....this is no small issue.
I once told my mentor how HUGE it was for me to have done something like "not concern myself with everyone else's opinion" and how silly it must seem for me to think it's such a big deal:
she replied this is HUGE for everyone....(ok, maybe not N's, or at least they won't admit it).

ALL of the responses you have recieved are awesome...what a bunch of smarties!!

I wrote a whole big response, but I think I need to just print out what everyone said and mull it all over.  WOW

[vunil]

Another wrinkle to this that I would love feedback on is how to tell, if you had N parents who randomly told you your favorite color (and whatever else) was wrong, how to do distinguish between good advice and bad advice?  I don't want to be like my parents, who cannot take anything they perceive as "criticism" even if it is patently logical information-- e.g., they try to find things in my house without asking me where the thing is (and if I notice them looking and tell them where the thing is-- in my own house! it hurts their feelings), they try to use things I own without asking me how and are completely stymied and if I show them how it makes them defensive and mad, etc.  The funniest thing is when they don't listen to me and keep using the thing wrong, getting more and more frustrated because it doesn't work.  At some level, being too sensitive to feedback is just as bad as feeling compelled to listen to/respond to feedback-- neither is really functional.

This is really a tough issue for those of us who grew up with parents with no boundaries, as Marta points out.  It will probably take me a lifetime to figure out what is good/edifying/reasonable feedback and what is a power trip to be ignored.  This comes up at work, in relationships, everywhere.  I don't think the answer is only to want solicited advice-- it is part of friendship and love to sometimes give unsolicited advice-- and anyway people are human and can't help it.  . And at work, of course, feedback is part of the game.  I would hate to be so sensitive, like my parents, that I can never grow.  On the other hand, I hate the idea of the world thinking it can tell me what to do, especially since I spent my chldhood that way.

Advice, gurus?

[Healing&Hopeful]

This is a very interesting point.  For me I kind of went the other way, so if someone says something nasty I don't take any notice, however if someone gives me a compliment, I don't believe them either so it's no win.

Personally though, I do still try and go with my instinct.  Like when I was a teenager, I was sent a couple of valentine cards.  Mum was so angry with this that she tore them up.  This didn't feel like an infringement of my boundary.  However, when I was slightly older a couple of years later me and a friend used to write letters to each other and Mum thought it was perfectly acceptable for her to get my letters and read them, then accuse me of being a lesbian because it's not normal behaviour to write to friends and add "with love" at the bottom.  This cause a major row because I actually felt hugely violated.  Looking back the first was still violating my rights and space, but I couldn't see it at the time, however by the second, I was able to realise it and not necessarily do anything about it at the time, but able to say, no, this is not right.

So now I feel that if you look at yourself, would you class yourself as overly sensitive?  Do you class yourself as being walked all over?  Or do you feel your a happy medium, sometimes sensitive and find things hurt, sometimes being told what to do, but also having the voice to disagree if you so require.  I feel that it's when you can be honest with yourself and that you are happy with yourself and how you react.  If you feel you are too much of one and not enough of the other, you have the power to change it so it balances things out.

H&H xx

[welcome guest]

I'm very tempted to recommend you say :-

well buy me a dishwasher then, you .... (insert appropriate phrase here)

If you're not going to then perhaps you could dry the dishes. Unless you prefer 'appearing to be helpful' rather than actually being so.

[bliz]

I call this the sniper approach and so many of our acquaintances/family/former and current significant others ,are masters at it.  I like the non-answer/answers.  Sometimes I just say, "hey you are right, I am a throwback", just to get them off my case.  You are right that defending the position often doesnt work.  Good answers here.

[vunil]

defending the position

And part of the major frustration that I have, especially with my family, is that it usually isn't a position and I should have to defend it!  I mean, having or not having a dishwasher is a personal preference, not a stance taken in a presidential debate.  I have had a lot of ridiculous conversations in the last couple of weeks wherein I make intellectually sound arguments in defense of... my choice of bottle brand, my choice of breast pump, the color I want the baby's crib sheets to be, the outfit I would like her to wear a certain day, etc.  The reason it doesn't work is because, I think, the criticizer just wants to criticize and doesn't care about the particular issue at all.  Just my guess.

Which may be the answer-- trying to figure out whether the person is just trying to exert power or if there is something real there, given out of love, to learn from.  I guess the buddha would learn from stuff not given out of love, too, but I don't guess I'll reach that level of enlightenment

H&H I cannot BELIEVE your mother.  My mom read my mail, too, for awhile when I was young and I remember screaming at her (I was 17) that it was a federal offense to read others' mail and I would report her.  She stopped.  Sometimes people do cut it out when you yell and scream.  Crazy cancels out crazy, I guess...

[Sela]

Where do I start to thank you all?

I truly believed this was MYYYY problem and even felt silly posting about it.  Thankyou so much to all of you ..you have validated and valued me and best of all.........understood and shared.  Thankyou all for taking the time to post and for putting such thought into it.

Hopalong......that's exactly what I feel like.......whittled down.  Your responses are great but you're right.....I would have to practice infront of the mirror for awhile.  The biggest thing for me is finding a way to keep myself from going into shock mode.  That's really what I do.  I feel totally shocked when people say things like this and that sends me spiralling.  Why do I do that?  I wish I could not do that.  And I think your idea of practicing some alternative come backs is a good one.  Thanks for being the first to say that this isn't trivial Hopalong.  Reading your words gave me instant relief from some weird anxiety I had.  Gee.....I'm not crazy.

You too Marta.  Thanks for that validation and for saying that you have "suffered for many years like this too".  I have suffered because of these kinds of comments.  Not because of the comments but because of who said them and what I perceive as their underlying motives.  But......even then......I have to admit...it feels bad to be criticised in such a way....no matter who does it.

I don't usually ignore people or take what they say lightly.

Me either.  And thinking about doing so feels like lowering myself to their level.

Like you, I believe I am entitled to make choices and live my life as I choose.  I just get totally blown away by those who don't believe that....or at least.....don't seem to believe that about me.  I want to scream......double p*** off!!  triple even!!!  But instead.........I get a whirlwind happening in my gut and feel anxious to justify my choices.....almost to prooooooooooooove I'm entitled.  Stupid.

BTW, I've never use dishwashers, even when I have one in my apartment.

Thankyou Marta.  More PROOOF I'm not crazy.  Stupid maybe but not crazy!!!

Dear Gail:

You could also try brutal honesty, unless you think it would do more harm than good.

HAHAHAHAHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHAHAHAHAHA!!  Words of great wisdom!!  Thankyou so much! 

Meeeeeeeeeeee?  Who has always thought of herself as brutally honest???  Hahahahaha!!  It didn't even cross my mind to be honest!!!  How dense is that??  Thankyou so much Gail!!  Ofcourse!!  Why not??  That makes total sense to me.  If I could only THINK to put up a stop sign like this......instead of ......reacting.

October!!  Thankyou too!

Instead you respond with a non committal comment...

That's even better!!  I need to drill all of this into my head!!

If you don't defend, then they are left on a little island of opinion, with nowhere to go.

This is so brilliant I can't stand it.

Seconded!!!

Oh Vunil!!  I love this one:

 

She suggests asking them what they think you should do and then saying, sweetly "Oh!  Well then I'll do that, then!"

This I think I could actually do, in a high pitch voice, honestly, while adding what an interesting opinion I think the person has!!  Thankyou too!

At some level, being too sensitive to feedback is just as bad as feeling compelled to listen to/respond to feedback-- neither is really functional.

I agree.  I do think though.....in this case that I described in my original post......that is not the case.  I don't think I'm too sensitive about people criticising my choice to wash dishes by hand or cook food for whoever I choose.........I think I'm totally flabergasted by their total lack of respect for my right to choose and more so....by their rude, "whittling" ways.   I think this is the very crux of subtle N-ish behaviour and I have a harder time with it than I do with blatent, outright obvious invasions of my boundaries.
 
PS:  I also think that the absolute, ultimately worst, insulting, belittling, insensitive, mean, nasty thing one can do is criticise a new mother's choices in regard to her new child.  Her confidence needs building not "whittling" down (I really like that word Hopalong).  It's N to the 9th, if you ask me.  So sorry you had to deal with all that Vunil.

Also:  Which may be the answer-- trying to figure out whether the person is just trying to exert power or if there is something real there, given out of love,...

I agree that this crosses my mind too but I ask myself:  "If I were trying to make a suggestion out of love to this person.......would I use such words???"

If the answer is:  "Not even with my tongue tied behind my back and my foot in my mouth!!", then I can easily ......get.......that there is no love.....involved.  Definately not love.  Something else, I think.

H&H.......... !!!!!!!  Every person has a right to personal privacy.  Your Mum acted totally disrespectfully (I know that feeling of invasion well).  So sorry this happened.  Makes me want to go over there and say:  "Give your head a shake lady!!" but ofcourse, what a waste of time and energy that would be eh?

...you have the power to change it so it balances things out.

I wholeheartedly believe this too.  Thanks for posting H&H.

Mum:  So glad you had such a considerate, validating mentor.  I would love to read your whole big response!  I know it too would be full of "wow" stuff to mull over.  Maybe later eh?

Welcome Guest!!  Thankyou for saying what I would really like to say.  I never seem to think that fast or else I feel like expressing it that way would be expressing my anger, which I'm entitled to express, don't get me wrong.  It's just that often the first thought that runs through my mind sometimes , is that the person wants......to get an angry response from me......and I'm too stubborn to give it to them.   

Bliz:

I call this the sniper approach...

So accurate I could puke.  That's exactly what it is, if you ask me.

I think I love your response the best!!!  If I can only get it memorized and put it into practice!!  Along with...."what an interesting opinion" and "I'll do that then"......sweetly.  Practice.  Practice.

Thankyou all so much.

  Sela

[Lizbeth]

My psycho N second husband used to criticize everything that I did, including how I stacked dished that I washed by hand to air dry (we had no dishwasher at the time).  Of course, he never washed a dish, but he knew better how to stack them to dry.  I blew up big at him, big time.

Come to think of it, neither of my two N husbands lifted a finger around the house, but they had loads of advice on how I was supposed to do things because, according to them, everything I did was wrong!

I'm very tempted to recommend you say :-

well buy me a dishwasher then, you .... (insert appropriate phrase here)

If you're not going to then perhaps you could dry the dishes. Unless you prefer 'appearing to be helpful' rather than actually being so.