Daughter of an N wonders if she is overreacting???

[Dawning]

Hi everyone.  Long history I have as the only child of an Nmother, child molesting father, physically abusive aunt...
Well, after years of being in an unhealthy off/again and on/again relationship with an N man, I spent a long time on my own.  This year, I was courted by a man I met at a retreat.  He's proposed marriage to me, told me he has bought rings and plans to come and be with me in a few months.  A few days ago, I received this in an email:


I talked with xxxx and it is a real delight to hear her strength, the illumination that she is moving with, the questions she is playing with. Her unfolding. Please, please, do not be jealous. We are very good friends and I am watching how our relationship is maturing, where before there was more of a mentoring movement now it is turning to two humans speaking and looking. What I spoke to her about was that with xxxx my relationship was primarily "No", not this, that, always struggling to curtail her judgemental movement. This from our child's name, to his education, to virtually everything she judged to be so, not saw to be so. With you, funnily, it is somehow almost the opposite. I cannot help but say "Yes". There is Dawning, a very real trust in who you are and what you are doing.

I was stunned.  I found this info below on this website: http://www.thirdage.com/news/articles/ALT03/05/10/04/ALT03051004-01.html

So, what's wrong with honoring and reminding yourself of your ex-spouse or lover while you're dating or married to another?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Holding on to memories is fine. EXCEPT, do it privately.

When you publicly display or discuss your ex in front of your current love, what kind of a message does that send to him or her? You're saying, "I don't care enough about your feelings or that I'm hurting you." You're being selfish and inconsiderate. You haven't adequately let go.

This is exactly what my SO-guy said to me....that I was being selfish.   I am new to the possibility of having a healthy relationship.  When I voiced to him that I was hurt, he told me that I was inventing a story and that my thoughts were *ugly.*

Right now, I want to back away and check things out from a distance; see if he mentions this woman's name again.  I believe that this man cares for me but I can't figure out why he would so openly share what he did above with me.  I'm clueless can someone enlighten me?  Any thoughts welcome.

Thx and Love To You All,
Dawning

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi Dawning

With my relationship with my husband, we have both spoke about ex's, things that have happened etc and from a personal perspective I don't really see anything wrong in doing that.  I believe that everything that happens in your past shapes you into the person you are today and sharing some of that with your partner, I don't believe is wrong.

The part I am really worried about is that he said you were selfish, that you invented things and your thoughts were ugly.  Personally, I feel that anyone who loves and respects you for who you are and wants to help you grow as a person, would not say these kind of things to you as I don't feel this is showing you love and respect, which you deserve.

Take care

H&H xx

[David P]

Dawning, I gather that 'xxxx' is his ex-wife. Is that right? If so, then yes, he is being careless with your feelings by sending you that email. However, the biggest insult is that he devalued your feelings even more by calling you selfish and accusing you of having ugly thoughts when you objected. I would have been mightily pissed in your position. I have been in a relationship with scattered and split loyalties and it was a disaster.

If this man is planning to make you his wife then he  OWES you the honor and respect of making YOU his first priority and that means that your relationship with him is paramount .
 He is entitled to his private thoughts and feelings about 'her',and you are entitled to ask him to keep his thoughts to himself if that is what you want.
Maybe you two could find a relationship counselor to guide you through this issue because clearly he does not get it.

My 2 Cents ..

David P. ( What do you mean by your SO-guy?)

[Dawning]

Thank you both above for your comments. 

The part I am really worried about is that he said you were selfish, that you invented things and your thoughts were ugly.  Personally, I feel that anyone who loves and respects you for who you are and wants to help you grow as a person, would not say these kind of things to you as I don't feel this is showing you love and respect, which you deserve.

Thanks for reminding me of this H&H.  It scares the be-jeezus out of me too cos it is like falling into the trap of the adult child of an Nparent.

Dawning, I gather that 'xxxx' is his ex-wife. Is that right?

The xxxx at the beginning is actually what sounds like a single woman who is not his ex-wife.  (He doesn't get on well with his ex-wife and the situation lacks closure because there is a child involved).

He is entitled to his private thoughts and feelings about 'her',and you are entitled to ask him to keep his thoughts to himself if that is what you want.

This is what I told him; that it hurt to hear his feelings about xxxx although I was by no means implying that he should give up the relationship, esp if they are good friends.  He replied that he didn't understand why "we all can't be one big happy family."  Words do not come easily here.  I consider myself a pretty open-minded person and not a control-freak. 

The feedback here is invaluable.

( What do you mean by your SO-guy?)

David P, a SO-guy is "significant-other guy,* a term brought to my attention last year.

Any other comments/personal experiences?  Love, D.

[David P]

Dawning, this is not getting any better! What the freak does he  mean by "one big happy family"?
The mind boggles at the thought. Is he hinting at a threesome? Or maybe he has in mind a situation in which he divides his time and emotional committment between the two of you.
It could be that he needs take a long hard look at what a marriage is supposed to look like.
The marriage vow,"Forsaking all others" includes emotional disloyalty and that is what he is really proposing. He wants his cake and eat it too OR he needs to move to Utah.

If a women whom I was dating said those things to me I would probably regard her as a poor candidate for marriage and demote her immediately to a casual date.
( On second thoughts I would probably dump her if she had accused me of being selfish and having ugly thoughts.)

David in TX.

[Healing&Hopeful]

It is interesting to me that you say that about a "one big happy family".  To me, that would mean that someone wants everyone to get along with each other and threesomes etc wouldn't enter my head.

You say that you only met this man this year, so I feel a marriage proposal is quite quick and also that you're not too sure yourself.  On this basis I would listen to your heart and your instincts.... you can tell the guy it's too soon and you need more time is perfectly acceptable, and if he's worth it, he will stick around. xx

[Chicken]

Hi Dawning!
I am glad you chose to bring this issue here and to work through it.  I think you need to be very very careful.  You have a track record of being an N target.  You know this is your weakness and it's very hard to spot N's as they lure you in behind different guises every time.  I don't know if my ex's are N's but I'm attracted to abusive manipulators who quash me.  They reduce me to a point where I have no power.  I come alive when I meet these kind of men, I fall in love and immediately hand over myself and my power to these men.  Do you lose yourself in these relationships too?  Do you immediately go along with his view rather than take a stance and believe your own thoughts? 

If you can't go to your future husband about your insecurities and not be comforted and reassured then that's a red flag.

If when you do go to your future husband, and talk to him about your insecurities, and he calls you selfish, he says your thoughts are ugly?  THAT is a huge red flag.

I am really struck by his need to talk to you about his ex on such a deep level.  I am wondering if he is trying to break you down, by making you feel insecure.  My ex did this all the time, he constantly talked about other women's beauty, how cute his ex was in bed when she would stick her chin in his back (!) and one night he went up to a pretty girl and told her how beautiful she was...  right there in front of me.  He built other women up just to put me down and then take his seat in power.  I was broken down by his behavioiur and didn't even realise I was being sort of brainwashed.  I thought it was other things that were causing this, I thought it was my own insecurities!  I thought it was me, yes it was me...  but he put me there.

All I know is that this behaviour is not love...  but this is:

You should have gone to your husband to be, and discussed it with him, he should have validated your feelings, reassured you, made a decision to tone down (or stop) his talking about his ex if necessary, and made you feel glad you did go and talk to him.  The whole episode should have brought you closer together!

Dawning, I urge you to slow down with this man if stuff like this is coming up.  Slow down and find yourself again.  Don't allow someone to tell you that you're being selfish, and that your thoughts are ugly.

You are not being selfish.  Your thoughts are perfectly normal and natural under the circumstances. 

You deserve to be loved

x Selkie x

[Cadbury]

I agree with everyone else... this is sending me warning signals too. My ex N used to keep in constant contact with his ex gf and would constantly tell me how she still loved him. He had two ex-gf's who he used to phone out of the blue and chat to. One was spanish and he even had conversations in Spanish in front of me so I wouldn't know what he was saying. It is understandable that a SO would mention an ex and even keep some kind of contact. Just not at the expense of their partner. It seems such an N thing to do "Hey, look at me... girls just can't leave me alone/get over me" etc. If he then calls you selfish for a perfectly understandable response then he looks ever more worrying to me.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but I would definitely be wary. Hugs

[Sela]

Hi Dawning:

I'm also glad you came here and posted about this.  I see it as possibly a big step??  In the past, would you have just grinned and gone about your business bearing it??  This time......it looks like you are doing a great thing for you........getting a second opinion, so to speak, rather than just swallowing your worries??  If so......good for you Dawning!  Give yourself credit for being aware enough to ask board members for their take!   I agree with what others have said so far and then some but first.........

I'm so very sorry about all you went through as a child.  How horrible!!  No child should ever have to suffer through so much! (((((((((((((((((Dawning)))))))))))))))))).  Please look after little Dawning too (the little girl who suffered so much and needs to feel warm and safe).

I'm sorry Dawning, from the little bit of information here about this guy......I don't think he's helping or shows signs of being the kind of husband you deserve (one who ......hears you.......and understands.....and considers you........etc).

Please........run away as fast as you can from this guy.  He's giving me the creeps just reading.  Your thoughts are ugly!!!

Come on!!!  What a sick put down.  No man that cares for your feelings would insult you in such a manner (or being human and doing so would be quick to apologise and try to make up for it).  This guy doesn't ......hear......himself.  Whether he's N or approaching N or not likely N doesn't matter in the least, at this point, if you ask me.  What matters is that he can say such things, walk away, sleep comfortably at night, and not give a whiff about your feelings.  That's more than a red flag, Dawining.  That's a main ingredient in a recipe for failed relationship big time once honeymoon wears off.  My worry is that this will get worse and you......will suffer and be hurt once again.

And he calls youuuuuu.........selfish???  I don't think so!!  What he's saying is........your feelings don't count.  If you are uncomfortable.........tooooo bad...........he's not changing anything to suit you.  He's going to talk to whoever he wants to talk to whenever he wants to about whatever he wants to and YOUUUU  are the selfish one for even voicing your discomfort!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Plus...........he wants you and xxxxxx and his child and ......whoever else???......to be one big happy family???  Even if there is no sexual connotation .......what the heck?????   Who WOULDN'T be uncomfortable with that???

Somebody...................ssssssssssssssstop me!!!

Honestly, Dawning.........your feelings are most certainly more valuable and worth consideration than that!!!  You deserve a man who would NEVER call your thoughts NASTY NAMES, or call YOU A NASTY NAME for speaking those thoughts or ridicule you in such a fashion!!! 

Run Dawning!  Run!!  I'm so sorry it will hurt to lose this man who you thought was it but listen to your gut!  It's telling you more than I or anyone here can perceive.

Absolutely No....Not a bit......and totally NOT.......are you over reacting!!!  You, dear Dawning, are reacting appropriately and THAT is a wonderful thing!!  Instead of ignoring the messages your instincts are sending you......you came here and asked others about it...... 

I'm so sorry that my opinion is this guy is dangerous and will probably hurt you further.

Please don't let that happen.   Get away from this guy mighty quick.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Dawning)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Sela

[Hopalong]

Hi,
I  can tell I still have fuzzy boundaries so I was glad to read this from Dave P:
The marriage vow,"Forsaking all others" includes emotional disloyalty
I would like it very much if we could dig into this, maybe on another thread, because I think it's easy to either draw over-rigid boundaries or none at all. I feel foggish about the middle ground.

As to this guy, I am not at all foggish about his calling your thoughts ugly and being unsupportive and disrespectful of you in the extreme, and this sounds like true-colors-showing time. So add him up and please, get away, you don't deserve that.

I think what bothered me most about what he described was not that he experienced a deep exchange with another human being of the opposite gender. It was that I think he rubbed it in your face, and then went on to rub it in your face even harder when you responded with vulnerability. Something very very sharklike in that behavior that I think portends a critical abusive mate, so I hope he will never be yours.

When he said this: ...the illumination that she is moving with, the questions she is playing with. Her unfolding. Please, please, do not be jealous. We are very good friends and I am watching...
I feel that he is actually doing two things, both with her and WITH YOU:
1) condescending ("watching" her "playing...and unfolding...") Who. Does. He. Think. He. Is.
2) watching (he IS watching! I think he's intentionally toying with your head and WATCHING to see if he'll get away with it. Then he would move to anchor that (hey, got her! So now I can be her "MENTOR"--more condescension there too) and look forward happily to many, many years of toying, playing, threatening, judging, criticising, and pressuring her to go against her own instincts about her own well-being.

What's wonderful, wonderful, is that your discomfort with all this is CLEAR. You wouldn't be posting about it if you didn't have a sense of danger and a desire for even more clarity. Good for you!

Hopalong

[Marta]

Dawning,

This is a big red flag. Not only is he writing to you about this other woman, he is actually comparing the two of you, and setting you up to feel the way you are feeling. Then he calls you selfish.

I too would like to second Sela and say run, but I also know that it is not so easy to run cold and turkey, you probably want more information before you make your decision. So, if I were in your shoes, I would start enforcing boundaries with this man, and then watch and see what happens. Say with confidence that you are not being selfish, for you really are not. Then see how he responds to this.

I can't figure out why he would so openly share what he did above with me.

One possibility is that he is playing games. He likes seeing you jealous, being on your toes, having power over you. If he is an abusive type, then it may be a dry run to see how far he can go with you after the marriage. I sure hope not, but that is a possibility I would not rule out.

[Sallying Forth]

He's proposed marriage to me, told me he has bought rings and plans to come and be with me in a few months.

This is a red flag to me. Sounds like the guy is too prepared. He's anxious to tie the knot but in a way which is possessive.

I may be wrong. How long did you know him before he said this? If a year, that is too short.

This is exactly what my SO-guy said to me....that I was being selfish.   I am new to the possibility of having a healthy relationship.  When I voiced to him that I was hurt, he told me that I was inventing a story and that my thoughts were *ugly.*

These are red flags:
...being selfish ...inventing a story ...thoughts were ugly

They are disrespectful. This is NOT what someone would say if they loved and respected you. These are the beginning signs of abuse and control.

Your feelings are not acceptable. Your thoughts are not acceptable. Only I can be selfish. This is what the guy is saying to you.

Right now, I want to back away and check things out from a distance; see if he mentions this woman's name again.  I believe that this man cares for me but I can't figure out why he would so openly share what he did above with me.  I'm clueless can someone enlighten me?  Any thoughts welcome.

Thx and Love To You All,
Dawning

Dawning, you don't sound clueless to me. You sense something is wrong. Trust your intuition. Trust your senses. Trust yourself.

This man has all the indications of a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde personality. Cares for you but discounts your feelings (you're inventing a story). Cares for you but doesn't want you to care for yourself (you're selfish). Cares for you but wants to control your thoughts (your thoughts were ugly).

Then his email compares the two of you. Big red flag.


My suggestion is to do more than get distance, get away. Sever the relationship.

[Plucky]

Hello Dawning,
In light of this betrayal, which hits so close to home that it makes my blood boil, I wrote you a little poem.

To Dawning

If it were me
Then I would flee.

If this were I
Then I would fly.

The whole idea
Just makes me sick

Your SO guy's
A big fat bad person.

Copyright 2005 Plucky

[Sallying Forth]

Love your poem Plucky. Succinct and to the point.       

[Hopalong]

I loved your poem too Plucky! 
Sela, this quote really helped me and I hope it helps you too Dawning:
Whether he's N or approaching N or not likely N doesn't matter in the least, at this point, if you ask me.  What matters is that he can say such things

I think once we learn what N or another disorder is, it's easy to not see the behavior for the acronyms, whether in ourselves or others, and just lose track of when something is ugly (that's NOT your thoughts Dawning!) or threatening or unkind.

I think he is threatening and unkind, and I can't imagine him making any woman happy. Some men are just compelled to toy with vulnerable women, mess with their heads. It may be unconscious and he's still a human being and all that, but this is how he appears to act out his own damage. He's not biting his fingernails, he's toying with women. We all have our ways of showing damage, but this way will hurt you.

IMO, he's also very, very slick with words. Telling you about the other woman and in the same paragraph sliding in an oozy compliment to you was VERY slick.
Hopalong