Entitlement

[Gail]

I just got a long letter from X h detailing his financial woes.  I had blocked his e-mail, but he sent this to me using a different e-mail address to bypass it.

I hate having the arguments in my head with him, so am trying to get this off my chest. 

He owes me more around $1,500 now for his share of childrens' medical bills and car payments I've made for a car he owns (that child who lives with him drives) to protect my credit.  (I've done everything I can to get off the loan, but no luck so far.)   To justify why he hasn't paid me, he told me how he is completely out of money, has only enough gas to get to work one more time, almost out of food, won't be able to feed the children he has this weekend without cashing a check that should go to me, etc.

And he goes on and on how he can't live on what he makes after paying child support, and also having to be responsible for half the kids' medical bills, the car payments, and medications for the one child who lives with him.  Sounds great, except THAT I HAVE BEEN MAKING THE CAR PAYMENTS AND PAYING FOR 100% OF THE KIDS' MEDICAL AND MOST OF OUR DAUGHTER'S MEDICATIONS.  And I have FIVE children at home to support.  aarrgghh!!!!!!!  And there is no thank you, just "I think it's only fair that you "help" with these car payments since the car is often used for the other kids."  (Very, very seldom.)   And, he says, his own car isn't all that expensive (was $30,000) and the trips he takes with the kids are the only bright spot in his life.  (When I questioned how he can pay for those expenses when he "can't" pay for court ordered expenses.) 

I can see that his intention is not to make any more car payments, since he knows I'll make them to protect my credit. 

I'm just grateful that in our state, child support is garnished from wages, or I wouldn't get that, either.

It just feels so disrespectful and abusive, especially the entitlement part.  He makes a very good salary and really should be able to live on what is left after child support.  Yet, it's always "woe is me" on his end.  I'm afraid the next step is him telling me he can't "afford" to have the one child with him.  She suffers from mental illness, and I simply can't have her here with the other 5 children.  I'd be dead in a month from the stress.  I'm looking into getting her on a waiting list for supervised housing for those with mental illness and also looking into social security benefits for her.  No way will XH do the legwork to found out anything about either of those two possible avenues for help.

Thanks for letting me vent.  The one bright spot for me is at least I don't have to live with him anymore or pay the debts he runs up.

Gail

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi Gail

I can completely relate to the "poor me".  We fall for it for so many years, and then we see it for what it is and for me, it's so frustrating, annoying and makes me feel so angry, like I just wanted to shake him.

Regarding the car... if it's his car, is it in your name and registered at your address?  I didn't really understand the bit about protecting your credit.  If so, then maybe you can get it changed to his name and address.  Or tell the police it's been stolen so you can get it back to sell it?  If it's an expensive car, you could maybe sell it and get a little runaround.

Well done for having the strength and determination to stand up to him, and to do what's best for your daughter, especially as your XH is obviously incapable of doing this.

As you've said, at least you don't live with him and have to pay off his debts.

Take care

H&H xx

[mum]

Hi, Gail. Do you have a court order that spells out what he pays you for medical expenses?  If so, simply file a complaint for non payment. If not, maybe it's worth going to court over this.
As far as the car goes, sell it. It's in your name. Your ex can buy it. Are you keeping it to protect your credit, or for the sake of the child who drives it (because if you don't pay for  it, the child won't have a car?)

If it's a credit question, sell the car....it's a liability. Offer to sell it to him, and he can take over payments OR SELL IT TO SOMEONE ELSE!!! Clearly, you don't benifit from paying for the car, so why are you involved at all?

If it's  because your child needs it, well, maybe they need to know dad's a deadbeat.....and/or can't afford the car. And then dad can do what he should for the child who lives with him (I assume he has custody of this one....?) like drive them places or admit he cannot provide what they need....and then drive them places....

If that child is emancipated, perhaps that child needs to work and be able to afford thier own payments?
Just some thoughts to get YOU less tangled up.

I just think if my child chose not to live with me, OR was old enough to live wherever they wanted, then I would try my best not to be stuck financially with someone who is no longer my responsibility legally.  Life with dad is still "cushy" if behind the scenes, mom is still providing....

I hope I don't sound harsh, but I deal with this basic question all the time with my (younger) kids.  MY accomodations make thier time with Ndad less painful. And I do them no favors with that. They need to feel how crappy it is with him, so that when they make a choice to be with him (as they get older) it's based on reality, not what mom made easier for them. I;m not talking abuse, of course, but I know, that as a mom, I tend to pick up the slack and dad comes out smelling like a rose. For their own sake, I do this less and less as they are growing toward adulthood.  Believe it or not, I am figuring out, that to be a "cohort", silently, behind the scenes, making life easier for them when with dad, is to IN EFFECT keep them voiceless. 

[Gail]

The car is not in my name, so I have no authority to sell it, but I am still responsible for the payments.  Sound confusing and unfair?  Yes, I think so, too.  The problem is we took a loan out on the car when we were still married.  One of our sons used it and made payments to us.  When we divorced, XH was awarded the car, and the title is now in his name only and daughter that lives with him drives it.  The bank that carries the loan on it, though, doesn't give a fig about the divorce decree, and my attorney didn't warn me that this could happen.  If he had, I would have insisted that XH refinance the car in his name only as part of the divorce.  Since I signed for the loan, I'm still responsible for it even though I no longer own the car.  I've gone round and round with the bank on it, but they won't budge. 

If I don't make any payments, the car will probably eventually be repossessed.  That will go on my credit report, seriously hurting me for student loans, etc., and my daughter, who needs the car to get to the few college courses she's able to manage, will not have any transportation at all. 

My daughter is seriously disabled with bi-polar disorder and severe anxiety and is trying desperately to get stabilized with new medications.  I'm not willing to let her go down the tubes because XH won't pay for her prescriptions.   That would mean hospitalization and possible suicide attempts.  Hopefully, she'll eventually be able to work, but right now is unable to. 

I hope that explains why I'm helping her financially.  Unless someone has had a child with this type of illness, it's hard to fully understand that "tough love" doesn't work the same way with a mentally ill child as it does with a child without a serious mental illness.

Gail

[mum]

Wow, Gail, this is tough. You're right, I certainly don't know what it's like.  I understand now about the car, and short of going to court over it, I'm not sure what you should do.
You are doing what you can to support your daughter.  You sound like you have made a choice based on sound reasoning and the best of some pretty rotten choices.

One thing I did, to get myself to let go of being so angry about the unfairness of my circumstances (yup at the hands of a real jerk of an ex) was to look at how I had indeed made a choice and was indeed in control.

Almost three years ago, I attempted to relocate with my kids to another state. My ex is frequently out of the country and state on business, sometimes for months at a time, but he took me to court and now I must stay and procure the children for him at his convenience when he feels like it.  This is still a pretty bitter pill, and if I got into detail, I'm sure you would agree it's totally unfair, sexist and abusive, but I made peace with it when I realized the courts did not say I couldn't go, just that my kids couldn't, and I really did make a choice, and that was to stay with my kids and not leave them with a narcisstic and traveling  father and a controlling step mother they don't love.

Things are different now, and we will all make different choices soon, but the bottom line is, I DID make a choice and I did have power.
Maybe that will help you.  You are making a choice ....sure it's one forced upon you from a bunch of lousy options, but you are paying for the car because you need to keep a clean credit record, and I assume, going to court over it is not something you want to do (I understand that one!).  You made a choice to support your daughter, no matter what her Nidiot dad will or will not do, because you love her and will take care of her no matter what. You made a choice, and it's based on being a good, loving mother.
Sure, it's still unfair and it really sucks......but YOU are right, and you are acting with loving intention.
I am sure that things will get better for you, and I'm sorry if I came off advicey, if you really only needed to vent.
I think you are amazing, and that ALL your kids are lucky you're their mom.

[Gail]

Thanks, Mum!  It's so nice to be heard!  I really liked what you said about making choices.  I'm trying very hard to think things through.  For example, I could file contempt charges against XH for not paying his share of the medical bills and not making the car payments.  But, he has a very good relationship with the children--spends a lot of time with them and they love him dearly.  They know he doesn't help with homework, or take them to the doctor, or discipline them in any way, but I do that, so they are all pretty secure except for the one with mental illness. 

If I take him to court, it will be more conflict, after a very difficult divorce, and he will complain bitterly to the kids.  They aren't old enough or mature enough to really understand the situation.  They will just see that poor dad is bankrupt and has no money. Mom has enough, yet she's taking him to court and causing him more pain.  So, if I don't file contempt charges against him, it will be because I choose to evaluate the situation and decide that it's best for the children if they don't have to deal with more conflict between the two of us. Plus, even though he makes a very good salary, he doesn't have any money at all, so I don't know what taking him to court will accomplish.  He lives from paycheck to paycheck, but child support is significant (but reasoanble), and he really is in a mess financially.   I'm keeping track, though, and if it ever looks like he can easily pay up, I'll reconsider. 

XH really blames me for the trouble he is in.  In the last e-mail, there was no sense of personal responsibility, no apparent understanding of what he has done to create the situation.  He's made it clear to the children that I am the villian since I divorced him.  (Fortunately, they love me dearly, too, and don't take sides.)   I had to laugh when he said his car wasn't that expensive.  To me, a $30,000 car is very expensive when you can't afford it.  But, he's just not rational, so reasoning is futile.

I also can't leave the area because of the stipulations in the divorce decree.  What you said about that helped me feel less trapped as I wouldn't live here otherwise.  Yes, I choose to stay here, because I choose to live with my children.  When they are grown, or if XH moves out of the area, then I can choose to re-evaluate where I live.

I love this site--the interactions are so great!

Gail

[Sela]

Hi Gail:

Jeepers!  What a sticky situation.  Frustrating, I bet.

Just a thought.......banks are in business and they don't really give a hoot whooo pays their loans/interest as long as somebody does.  That gives you leverage you may not be aware of.  For instance, you could discuss this problem with .....another financial institution.....one that also wants your business.  They might offer you a new loan to pay off the old one (especially if the rates have dropped.....it might be worth it).  If you can get such an offer and go back to the original lender....you may find them eager to please you......rather than lose the business.  Sometimes this works ("Well....bank B is offering me X, so I'm going to pay off this loan and go there unless you are interested in doing A, B and C for me").   Don't know if this might help you or not.  I guess it all depends on what you want.

....he has a very good relationship with the children--spends a lot of time with them and they love him dearly.  They know he doesn't help with homework, or take them to the doctor, or discipline them in any way,...

He's not parenting them.......he's just their buddy.....like another sibbling.   Lucky him.

... but I do that, so they are all pretty secure except for the one with mental illness.

And you are the real parent.  You get to be the adult.  You do your job which is....preparing them for life.  He gets to play.  I know the scenario well.

It sounds like you are worried that if you stop enabling weasel x's behaviour, your kids will resent you??

.....even though he makes a very good salary, he doesn't have any money at all.

Gee......wonder why that is?  Possibly he blows it all on silly stuff and runs up debt like he did when he was married to you??

Personally,  I might try for a new loan from another bank......go to my original bank where the car loan is in BOTH  names (???).......tell them I'm refinancing unless they're interested in taking my name off the loan, as the vehicle is no longer accessable and show them the documentation that outlines his responsibility.  They can do that......then later, when he doesn't pay...they can repossess (but I wouldn't mention that prediction).

Then I might choose to buy a vehicle for my daughter, one that I could afford, or if not ...drive her where she needs to be,  or buy her a bus pass, or do whatever seems reasonable....by choice....rather than by being forced to pick up the tab for old cry baby.

XH really blames me for the trouble he is in.

And not only that but he probably whines to the kids too, making you out to be the bad guy.  Why pay the toll and take the flack with it?   He's not your kid.

To me, a $30,000 car is very expensive when you can't afford it.

I'm with you.  Gee.....just think....he could sell hissssssss car and buy a couple of less expensive ones, if he were a real dad.  I might even be tempted to mention this in passing........

"I wonder why dad doesn't sell his expensive car and buy two others that cost less money?  That's really weird."

   Sela

[miss piggy]

Hi Gail,

Ugh, what a baby for an X you have!  I could not have written the excellent replies you have already received (I learned a lot) but just wanted to add that you can just take his comments at face value.  The truth is, as you know, he doesn't want to pay for anything that doesn't benefit him. 

I can count at least three, no, four, uh maybe more, relatives in my family who make the "I'm so poor, worried about money, scared of money..." noises it makes me puke.  Bottom line, they just don't want to pay for anything and are making excuses.  One of my sibs is a Champion Hand Wringer.  Always rubbing his hands about normal expenses and trying to weasel money out of my parents.  My mother used to worry but I think she has got on now.  He is the stingiest guy.  His psycho wife is really good at mooching stuff on family and neighbors.  I stopped loaning her stuff when she wouldn't return those things, or returned them when they were broken.    Hmmm.  I really don't like her.     Another SIL is terrific at telling others why they should pay and she shouldn't.  Those double standards are alive and well everywhere!  Our school parents want a new gym but don't think they should pay anything for it.  Everything is free and money grows on trees in somebody else's yard.

I also had a manager who prided herself not on making money for the company, but on staying within her budget.  This was how she measured herself.  I discovered that any time an estimate or bid would come in, it was automatically too high.  It was her kneejerk response to grind a reasonable proposal down.  We lost some good honest vendors because of that.  You can imagine what it was like come review time where raises were involved.     An N coworker thought she shouldn't have to pay taxes for firemen and police because she never needed them!  Uh, OK.

So your dear old X is just making noise.  It has to be irritating to deal with a Big Baby.  Tell him to grow up. 
Jeez, I guess I had to vent about these moneygrubbers.    Good luck Gail    MP

[Plucky]

Hi Gail,
he just doesn't quit, does he?!
Can you ask your attorney about getting all his payments garnished from his wages in advance, even the ones you don't know about?
For example, estimate expenses for 2006, based on what was spent in 2005, and with any changes you know about.   Then get it taken out of his salary in regular installments.  At the end of the year you can reconcile.

Because you need some sort of solution.  You'll be fighting this battle, and losing, until your youngest child is 25!

It can be presented to him as enhanced money management.  Less trouble for him.  More accountability for you (yeah, right).
Plucky

[Gail]

That's a great idea.  I'll have to check into that.  I learned today he has spent down my daughter's custodial account to almost nothing.  And he got #2 son to pay for a prescription he promised to take care of today that he hadn't filled, even though I know he got a check yesterday for several hundred dollars.   I had told him I'd take care of it, but he insisted he would two days ago and I couldn't do anything because it was in his possession.  I'm wondering if something really strange is going on.  I just hope he doesn't get so stressed out he loses his job.   I'd manage, but I'd miss that child support.  My mom keeps telling me that I should plan for that, and I'm beginning to think she really has a valid point. 

[miss piggy]

Hi Gail,

Just wanted to say that I realize my post wasn't really useful.   I am glad you are getting great practical and knowledgable advice from folks here.   Sorry to blow a lot of nonsense all over your thread.  I'm a little embarrassed to tell you the truth.  Hope the paycheck withdrawal thing works.  Good luck to you.  MP

[Gail]

Hi mp,

I thought your post was fine.  I think we all need to vent sometimes.  And it helped me to know others face some of the same frustrations.

Gail

[Plucky]

Yes mp,
I agree with Gail.  Every thread needs some levity.  Post on, sister!
an entertained
Plucky

[mum]

Hi, Gail. Something to consider: way back when I was "asleep" and under the spell of my exN, we were making money but we had no money....
He was cheating on me with a coke head with blue hair (not an old lady blue hair but a little punkster in the 80's). What I didn't know, that he told me when I divorced him 10 years later (in what, an attempt to "come clean" and win me back? sure....) was that back in those days, he was snorting all our money up his nose as well.

So, long way around of saying: does your ex have a drug habit he is supporting instead of his children?