What is she thinking?

[miss piggy]

Hiya Clint!

You made my day with your party success.  Way to go.

Your X is a punk who will never learn that her "sadness" is a result of her actions and their consequences.  Her feelings are her responsibility.   Let her go use someone else.  Yeah, block sender.

I'm so glad you've moved on.  Life's too short to chase people who don't appreciate you anyway.  I hope one of these other ladies is wise enough to show appreciation for a nice guy.  Good luck in your greener pastures.  MP

[Bewildered]

I received an email from a girl friend (G) of my Exg/f which has got me thinking about a few things.I know G quite well.

Apparently my Ex told G a few days ago that she realized that she wanted more from OUR relationship that just dancing on a saturday night and sex. She started to feel this way about two months ago.She also said that she wants someone to share her other interests like camping and bush walking and biking and eventually she would like to travel to see Europe. In a nut shell she said that she wants a life partner to fit into the vision that she has for her life.  Fair enough.
I was reluctant to be involved in these activities when she suggested them in the first few months of our relationship, and so she did some of these things with other friends and usually told ne that they had a fine time and that she "missed me.".
'
However, there obviously was a time about two months ago when her needs and hopes for the future started to crystallize in her mind.
She was aware that her requirements from a relationship had changed, and she decided that she needed a change of partner to make her vision a reality.
She never said these words to me in any way. I knew that she wished to travel when she quit working but that is a long way off.

It appears to me that she then started to look for a replacement partner while maintaining a sexual
relationship with me without telling me that she was 'dreaming and hoping and looking' . I do remember her 'ogling' other guys and telling me about how "gorgeous" they were. Now THERE  was a clue!!
 Then I started to feel depressed ( Maybe my sonar beam was working pretty good ?) and when I told her that I felt unwell and depressed she became cool and distant and snappy.
She eventually found a guy who says that he likes all the same things that she does (some guys say that) and she signed him up and dumped me.

Did I have a right to be told by her that she wanted more out of a relationship and to have an open discussion about what we BOTH could do about that??

 Was she sneaky NOT to tell me that she was 'looking' for a replacement for me. Was it fair not to tell me and so give me the choice to stay around while she 'hunted' or to leave and let her hunt alone.

It looks to me as if she wanted all the emotional,sexual and social benefits of staying with me UNTIL she found a new man and then her plan was to discard me, which she did.

I feel deceived and humiliated and exploited.

Were her tactics fair, decent or indecent ,self -centered or is this just par for the course in the dating game.

A little Bewildered(but still FC)
 

[Plucky]

Hello Be Clint,
She is clever.   It really doesn't matter why she did what she did.  She did it.  And it was wrong.  You were spot on not wanting to sign up for a lifetime of filling her needs and living her dreams.  And now she has recruited your best friend to win you over.  Just put on your waterproof because the shyte is still raining down.
Plucky
 

[Hopalong]

Did you have a right...perhaps, but it's unenforceable.
You had a reasonable expectation, but it may be that you misjudged her character.

Was she sneaky...in my opinion, yes.*

Was it fair...of course not. Being dumped without explanation is NEVER "fair." But fair or not, I think what has to happen is a grieving process, rather than getting stuck in an "aggreived" state.

*I am wondering if part of the problem was a lack of open, skillful communication between you two, as well. Sometimes if there's not enough clear and skillful talking between people, there can be so many unspoken assumptions or unaddressed frustrations that somebody just ... bails.

And that really hurts.

[Brigid]

FC,
I'm a little confused about your recent post.  Do you actually have feelings for this woman or not?  Is it a pride thing as to who dumps who, or do you actually care about her and the potential for a relationship?

I guess I go back to what I wrote on page one of this thread--if two people in a relationship who care about each other can't communicate about their feelings, desires, hopes, dreams, etc., there is not a lot of hope for a future.  If her feelings about the relationship had changed, but she couldn't talk to you about that--what does that say about you, how she can relate to you, how she thinks you would react, etc.  I'm not saying that my opinions of her have necessarily changed, but you seem to be questioning your evaluation of the situation and that maybe you weren't being fair. 

I think that her looking for a possible replacement while continuing the relationship with you, is a crumby thing to do, but I don't think all that uncommon.  It sounded like the two of you did not invest a lot in the relationship from the beginning--so I see the potential for game playing to be fairly high.  I guess you need to figure out how you really feel about her and then deal with the situation directly, rather than using a go-between with the he said/she said (I realize she is the one doing that, but you don't need to feed into it).  That is pretty middle schoolish imo.

Brigid

[Plucky]

Hi Bewildered,
I just want to add that, in a normal relationship, when it breaks up for whatever reason, and even if you had been a real jerk, no woman would behave the way your ex has, for any reason.

If she is now re-telling the story to make herself out to be the misunderstood victim.  I'm not buying it.  Yes, there is a grain of truth in it - as there is in all good lies.  That is making you question it from your still-fragile sense of self.

Do you really really believe this version of reality?  I'm not convinced.

Try to let your friend know that she is capable of dishonesty, deceit, and cheating.  Try to remember all the really sick things she has been doing since you broke up, and that a normal woman would have moved on by now, or at least be dealing with her feelings without resorting to the shenanigans your ex has been up to.  If you were not the right life partner for her. why can't she leave you alone?
Plucky 

[miss piggy]

Clint,

come on, dude.  this is spin control to G ("what happened between you and Clint?"  "How could you dump a nice guy like him?" etc.)  plus she is sending out a feeler through her friend G since email didn't work.  Interesting that she could only outline more Good Times vs. Intimate Relationship.  That is, she wants to cast an actor to take the part in her script.  OK.  That's what she wants.

The question is: what do YOU want?  And go for it.

If you are looking for an appropriate response to well-meaning/nosy friends, just say X is a fun person but the chemistry is not there between you for a long term relationship.  No bad guys.  Just doesn't work for the long haul.  That's all.  No drama required.  Or if you really want to get to the point, tell them what you've told us: you want someone who will support you in the bad times as well as the good times, just as you would for them. 

Catch ya later, MP

[Bewildered]

I do not have enough affection for this woman to think about resuming the relationship even if she did a U turn and headed my way begging and pleading.

There are two issues here for me which are causing me some problems -

Firstly-I now an fully aware that I have been in a somewhat limited but nevertheless strong relationship with someone who changed her expectations about what she wanted in an relationship and did not openly discuss those new wants and needs with me. Instead she started to go secretly ' on the prowl'  looking for a replacement who shared her interests. I do acknowledge that people do change in their vision for their future -that is not my gripe. I am hurt because she stayed in the same good ole' relationship with me while she was 'hunting' for someone else . I fell deceived and foolish and used as the standby guy.
By not discussing her changed needs, she denied me my choice to move on if she had told me that she was actively seeking my replacement. If she had told me that she saw no future with me two months ago I would have been sad, but I would have understood her position. She was the one who wanted to change her direction, so in is her responsibility to articulate her revised vision to me.

Secondly I have the good old feeling of just being 'dumped' . Passed over, made obselete, superannuated -  It is not any easier to bear now than when it happened to me once before when I was 26 years old. Call it pride- or  dented self-esteem ; it does not matter what you call it because I realise that this issue IS mostly about my feelings of hurt and deception and not about any deep loss I feel for her.
       
She wants me to still like her  and to be 'friends', Jeez I am fine thanks -got plenty of those.
Once again it is all about what she wants.
She did not enquire about my welfare of state of mind or my health because she could genuinely care less.
I have a 'cup of tea and a chat '  date tonight with a fine lady ( at least she looksand sounds fine)
 

A Flintier Clintier  Bewildered

[Hopalong]

GOOD for you, BeClinty.
One of the things that makes me see you as ultimately coming out of all this UNdepressed (after the dumpee pain passes...ohhh, been there)--is that you are very honest.

The lack of that's what has hurt you most about her behavior, and rightfully so.

I hope you'll talk openly and a lot with new dance partners about what you're looking for. Like sort of...be in the moment to enjoy, but also conjure up a positive mental image of the quality of person and relationship you want. Some weird way, I hear (haven't made it yet but I believe others!) that may make it more likely to come to you.

I've been used too. After I got over the hurt there was a period of anger, too. That passed also, and when it did, soon the pain receded.

I hope yours does fast, Buddy. Meanwhile, we're here for you.

Hopalong

[Bewildered]

You guys are awesome - this place is the fast track to enlightenment ( Sorry, Dalai Lama).

Some of you have triggered off a thread of awareness in me about how LITTLE, my Ex and I talked about concerning any kind of future (except what we were planning next Saturday night) . I can put myself in her place and understand how our lack or communication about US,as a couple, may have set her up to yearn for a more emotionally predictable life or at the least,a partner who was INTO her and her interests a little more and willing to LIVE the relationship more fully.

 I do acknowledge that I enjoyed and often initiated discussions of abstract ideas and concepts rather than our own immediate relationship issues - maybe she sensed how I may have used that as a strategy to create emotional distance and safety. Maybe,maybe not ? I am getting to know myself a little here too.

If, under  every cloud there is a silver lining,(or a silver bullet) then this emerging awareness is just that.
However I also need to be cautious of women who behave like she did with callousness and a hard heart when faced with depression in their partner. I did hear the early warning bells, but I did not want to act on the information that I gathered by listening to them - at my subsequent peril ..


Flinty Clint.

[j_stice]

Hey Bewildered,

Can I try and see if I can add a little perspective here? She sounds like she is not strong enough to make a decision in life and live with it so what has she done? SHe left you hanging out to see if she could still have you! The thing with "G", I agree is just to keep tabs on you and see what your upto to make sure if nothing else goes well she can still keep in touch with you! Or to continue with that thought pattern how manipulative do you really think she is? Could it be she doesn't want to let go? Or maybe she doesn't want you moving on? Maybe that remnant of contact is all she needs to know that she still has you!

Let me give you some advice from my situation. Set a boundary and set it in stone otherwise your situation may teater on to using others to continue the lines of communcation, something that is dangerous and destructive. LOOK AT MY SITUATION! If you allow the contact then she may be more active and unless properly controlled she may do what my ex-gf did to me for almost three years. Bizzare calls, unreasonable expectations for what?

Don't worry about the pride and the issue of betrayal that is part of the control that this person wants. Pride can be restored, betrayal is the hard feeling to get rid of but even that can be alleaviated through clear thought and counselling (if needed).

The friends thing could be one of two things the control of your relationship and the dictating of terms or it could be genuine but my question to you is: Why be friends with a perosn who can treat you like that?

It sounds like this person has issues dealing with attachment (and detachment), emotional instability, issues about self confidence and more importantly doesn't take an active interest in those around them. You are better off with out her!

You sound like a great person move on and allow yourself the personal as well as emotional space to find the right person for you. If you allow her to hang around it can only lead one place trouble. Good luck man, it isn't easy going through what your going through but remember there are people around you (including here) that will support whatever decision you make!

[Hopalong]

Morning, Flinty,

I thought your last post was brilliant and will take you EXACTLY where you need to go.
One can observe the other's misdeeds accurately and at great length. And yes, a firm boundary (boulder) is a wise idea. Meanwhile, you wrote enough self-insight and ownership in those first 2 paras to change your life.

I think you guessed right. (Which doesn't make you wrong, btw!) Just makes you more aware.

This woman wasn't right for you and wasn't fair or sensitive to you and you've learned a lot from it. That's maybe the only place to park it. But it is valuable knowledge, of self, and of the character traits you are looking for.

The trick is to have new awarenesses about your own behaviors and tendencies in relating to women without beating yourself up for them. Maybe that's what this relationship was for. Somehow it was an opportunity for you to see these things in yourself...and that's wonderful. Because you can do/learn/change all sorts of things about yourself. And nobody else. It opens up new possibilities.

Sounds like you won't be doing any relationships on autopilot any more. If it's scary to think of challenging your own habits of creating distance, you're not alone. But there are lots of good books out there on "empathic listening" and communication. We're not trained very well for it. Women overcommunicate (don't look at me!  ) and men often underdo it. As we learn, though, at any age, those swings can balance out and bring more happiness and peace.

Kudos,
Hopalong

[Bewildered]

Thanks Hoppie, your perspectives mean a lot to me. This board and all you people posting on it  have been so great. I do not know what shape I would have been in if I had not found you when I did. Maybe I would have tried some private counseling - $2000 later, and who knows if I would have made the same progress.  I doubt it .

BTW, had a really nice date tonight with J. She is easy to be with and so sweet. We went dancing ,had a cup of tea and some interesting talk, AND I am planning to do it all again with her Saturday night at the club.( maybe my ex will show up this time - ooh, gee won't that be fun?)

Flinty Clint.

[Brigid]

Clint,
I agree that you are gaining some new insights which will be invaluable for you in future relationships.  Based on your last post, however, I would just send a word of caution.  If you are seeing someone who you enjoy, don't mess it up by creating any sense that you are using her to make your ex feel jealous--if she should show up on Saturday night.  We all get some satisfaction from showing our ex's how we have moved on and found happiness without them.  However if that lady you're with gets any sense that you are doing that, she will be gone (if she's smart).  Maybe you should try developing the relationship in places where your ex would not show up for now.  That only creates a distraction that seriously gets in the way of getting to know the new person. 

I have been out of my marriage for 2 1/2 years and in my new relationship for about 8 months.  We live in the same community with both our ex's, but have yet to encounter either of them while together.  I actually do not relish that encounter at all and know it will only create anxiety that will put a damper on an otherwise wonderful night with my bf.  I no longer care a whit if my ex has a life without me or if I can prove to him that I have moved on--because I have.  It only matters how I feel and he is no longer a part of the equation, other than the dealings we must have regarding our children.

Just my 2 cents.

Brigid

[Hopalong]

Hey FC,
Another wee warning if you'll tolerate it. DONNNNNN'T sweep yourself fast into a new sexual relationship or a romantic one. Take some time. Really look to build FRIENDSHIP FIRST with women, with lots of listening and talking...balance that with dancing and good times too. (Some good women would be seriously delighted if you said to them you realized going too fast is careless, and you want to put care into getting to know them.)

So just keep things balanced...get plenty of non-drinking, non-club, non-nightlife time with women as friends (which would involve walking and talking and doing different things together--in DAYLIGHT, even!), before anyone becomes a lover. That, imNho, from a whole bunch of rescue-myself-from-painful-patterns reading more than from personal experience, is the healthiest way to go into the future...

Have fun too!
Hopalong