Author Topic: Gift of Voicefull Relations?  (Read 4177 times)

Acappella

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Gift of Voicefull Relations?
« on: December 25, 2003, 05:41:30 PM »
Do you have movies and/or books you feel depict equilaterally voicefull relationships, win-win types at home and/or work?

Or do you have an example in your own life? Specific things that a loved one does or you do or you both do or a boss or a coworker does specifically that speaks of mutual respect and conflict resolution and shared support for growth vs. voicelessness/win-loose power struggles? A kind of before and after picture...especially the after picture of what you found in a healthy relationship? Especially specifics and especially any conditions or behaviors or feelings that you hadn't believed in before or were ignorant of all together? Especially that you have found now in a long term relationship.

I've heard that somewhere, someplace people really do negotiate and speak with honesty AND compassion and empathy and support each other in growing.  I don't even recall right now who said so or wrote about such relationships or why I believed them.

nightsong

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Gift of Voiceful Relations?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2003, 05:03:09 AM »
Dear Acappella,

Yous sound quite low and despairing in this post, am I reading you right? If so, I'm so sorry. I'm guessing something bad has maybe happened?

I think you're asking whether it is possible for people to have an equal and mutually supportive relationship? Here's my experience -

My husband and I both come from N parents and have failed marriages behind us. We have been together 20-odd years. We continue to struggle with issues from the past that impact our relationship, but I like to think we are still making progress together. Although old stuff gets in the way, we really try to come from an I'm OK, You're OK perspective.

What we both have of course is echoes of what we learnt from our parents, and that REALLY gets in the way. He will at times be patronising, overbearing, dismissive, impatient etc, just like his dear old Dad. And I will be victimy, bitchy, despairing, moany, etc, like my mother. We are getting good at spotting this in each other and pointing it out nicely, and accepting that we do this.

I can only think of little things we do that seem to help. For instance, he insisted long ago that we start the day by being nice to each other, so we always say "Good morning" and kiss first thing. I can't tell you how strange this was to me at first, but it is a powerful way to behave. Similarly, we don't go to bed with bad feelings between us.

I never could understand why it was OK in my family for my parents to be incredibly rude to me, when they would never dream of being anything but ultra-polite to people outside the family. So we try to remain civil even when we are expressing anger. I am very influenced by the whole emotional literacy thing (Claud Steiner, Daniel Golem (sp?)) so we try to own any strong emotions we have and focus on each other's behaviour rather than attacking personally.

Of course all of this is a counsel of perfection and we fall off the wagon frequently. Sometimes I think I'm justifying repression, especially of my own anger. I never had a tantrum as a child (it was too dangerous, my mother would never have coped) so I have difficulty expressing anger appropriately. He on the other hand feels and expresses anger all too easily. There is so much damage done to children of N parents, especially in terms of the lack of unconditional love that all children need, that it is an ongoing struggle to maintain a 'normal' adult relationship.

I'm wondering if this is the sort of thing you wanted? I hope you might post again and say how you are at the moment.

nightsong

nightsong

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Gift of Voicefull Relations
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2003, 05:06:51 AM »
Sorry Acappella, I am so unobservant. I just saw your other post.

Acappella

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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2003, 06:11:33 PM »
Hi Nightsong,

(I'll keep to the theme of better relationships at the start here and at the end of this post is my response to your "I'm guessing something bad has maybe happened?")

Yes, what you wrote about is what I am looking for....examples especially like your good morning ritual.  Your writing even just in general about what has worked, is working for you relative to a prior family - marriage and/or parents.  Thank you.  (CC wrote some too in the "Who in Grinchville?" thread.)

Nightsong..I feel you are observant...at least in your reading my post so I don't understand what you meant by your self-assessment: "I am so unobservant".  

I appreciated your post about your nephew too.  Woops! That was Argusina's post...she is poetic, so is your name Nightsong...got ya mixed up there for a moment..(in the "What helps" segment of this forum). I am volunteering with "at-risk" youth and despite whatever folks may say about children being selfish etc. (and especially "at risk" kids) their openess and innocence is still so visible beneath their pain - they are at least clear about needing interdependence even when they are not skilled at it.  I find hope in that and in the tender actions of your nephew AND I am wanting relationships with other adults with which to exchange support (and to have the support to in turn share with the children who themselves will be adults soon).  I am scoping out other adults to connect with possibly (who work or volunteer at the program).  Unfortunately adults don't interact with one another much at the program and the one I interact the most with at the program (She is  in charge of the hands on part of the program) I spent an few hours with outside of the program and though I appreciate this person in many ways I watched as she repeatedly presented her child as a trophy of accomplishments - a doll who performs for celebrities rather than as a human being and scoffed at her husband's request (on a christmas wish list) for a single day off from having to do anything.  Why is he asking her on a list like a child rather than negotating time spent? Since I am messed up perhaps I'll never get up close and personal with people who have a more equal relationship?   I want to connect with someone a tad less performance oriented and a but more self aware and whose husband doesn't need to put "a day off" on his christmas gift list.    She seems to mostly be trying hard and enjoying little and not seeing the people around her.  I believe I used to be more like that (how I managed to live with my husband's emotional absence in the first place).   Shoot me cause I guess I am a perfectionist!?  Am I too picky? ARRRRG.  Keep on swimming ...keep on swimming as Dora in Finding Nemo says!  

I do understand differences can be complementary and are inevitable and even refreshing as CC pointed out in "Who in Grinchville" thread.  About the male tendency to want to "fix it".  I love that tendency!!  I find that my husband rushes to an answer without working to understand the problem though - we all do at times of course.  Who doesn't want sometimes to solve even the most unsolvable things - mortality for example. And who has time to research every problem.  That I can live with (that is life with or without him) I can live with that...like his trail of socks around the house - just something that while occasionally annoying can be also endearing and an even humorous characteristic - the kind of thing that if he were to pass away I would miss ...I'd cry at the drop of a sock so to speak in his absence.  Unfortunately, the sort of problems in our relationship are of the magnitude that I wish he'd never come back.  His punishingness for example.  

Perhaps I will post here a list of some characteristics I am seeking, imagining, hoping exist and if anyone actually experiences those things I'd love to hear...either way any feedback - realistic vs. perfectionistic - I know so much of that is relative and personal.  I am not looking an answer just a more intimate view of what might be options. I want to either believe better exists or want to get over my illusions and bury the fantacy along with santa.

(P.S.
Quote
I'm guessing something bad has maybe happened?

 - just a build up of things..my husband was going to be gone for 7-8 days then at the last minute for only 3.  He also started some weird punishing behavior (i think it is what he does with guilt...guilt about his shortcomings vs. working on those short comings...such as avoiding his elderly mother even as she is leaving soon for another country just as he avoided his dying father.  He did that (with his father) before we met but now he can blame me for his doing the same thing with his mother.  I don't judge him for his avoidance I only ask that he deal with it, understand himself rather than punish me.) Even though his family is messed up I got sad here alone and began to feel like because his mom and sister take care of him (even though in a superficial despirate enabling way) and he flew off to exchange gifts etc. for the holidays and I am sitting here alone with my dog (and taking care of his that he said he'd take but left out in the cold and rain in the back yard for me to discover instead) that I am doomed and wrong...and would rather be able to play along than be lonely.  I don't feel that way right now though I do not like being so alone.

Day 3 without my husband here and I feel so much better (thank goodness for this forum and some friendly exchanges with strangers too though .  I am able to breath and appreciate simple pleasures.  I didn't even realize how paralized I feel when he is around until he left.  If I could just stay here alone for a while without him I am certain I would find work and keep growing stronger.   Living together in a 600 square foot house with two 80 pound dogs and only one car (his repossessed though he had the money to pay and mine sold so we could move here when he found a new job after he'd lost one 7 months before and our landlady put the house up for sale - he had been improving in therapy before we left or so I thought)

So what happened is just par for the course until I get connected and out of this relationship.  Until I have a job I like and a quiet safe place to live and some people I can connect with in real life not just on this forum it is going to be touch and go emotionally for me which makes getting a job I like and a quiet safe place to live difficult...a circle.  I am not religious – of course I believe in a higher power (duhhhhh!) I just have no idea what the heck it is other than “nature” and “the world”. When someone starts in about a guy bleeding on a cross and a specific heaven and who gets in and who doesn't I just do not connect at all.  Buddism is closer to what I believe in I think though I haven't read much about it.   A non-denominational church might be an option.    I looked into shelters.  One looked good except it was only for FAMILIES!  Oh if only I had brought an innocent child into this I could go someplace quiet and clean and safe to get my bearings!  ARRRG. Too bad there are no youth hostels around.  If we had a second car I'd drive to one.  Oh no, I may be too old now for those anyway?   The other shelter was far more creepy than home so I will keep on struggling to move forward here despite the interference run by my husband and my own insecurities...as if the later wasn't enough!  I found a couple of therapists I was interested in seeing cause I read their books and liked their approach and philosophies...I called them (huge step for me..years ago I never ever would have and I was very nervous but did it anyway.) but they aren't taking patients now - well one was but too far from here.  I got a referal from one of them but turns out it was for a cognitive therapist.  I believe I need human interaction more than thought analysis.  )

nightsong

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Gift of Voiceful Relationships?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2003, 01:44:38 AM »
Hi again Acappella,

Thanks for your reply, and now I read your other posts too so I get what is going on for you. I hope you are still finding some peace in your partner's absence, sounds like you need the space for yourself very badly at the moment.

I was struck by what you said about your work. I too work with troubled adolescents, in schools.  For a while I worried that I was too messed up myself to be a suitable person for these kids but now I believe we have a special insight that allows us to connect with them in a way that 'normal' people just can't. I so agree, beneath all the tough posturing they are frightened and vulnerable. I work in a very Person-Centred way, and I think the experience of being with an adult who tries to offer them empathy and lack of judgement is helpful to them. It sure puts some of my life experiences in perspective too, some of the things they have been through are so horrific.

The work is quite isolating in a way though, I don't have colleagues like I would in an office for example, and I think you were referring to this too? Not sure what the solution to this one might be.

We (my husband and I) went to our first ever Buddhist meditation class just before Christmas. I found it quite strange and alienating in a way, but the people there were lovely - very open and welcoming. We all stayed on to drink tea and talk afterwards. Mostly they were in their twenties and thirties I would say. We are probably going back when they start again in February, for a short course. I have though also about going to a Quaker group, which is something I did in my teens and have very fond memories of. Like you, I think, I'm searching for a group of people to feel some connection with, and it's hard in a materialistic and competitive world. Some of them are right here on this board though!

Wishing you peace in the New Year,

nightsong

nightsong

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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2003, 01:45:25 AM »
Hi again Acappella,

Thanks for your reply, and now I read your other posts too so I get what is going on for you. I hope you are still finding some peace in your partner's absence, sounds like you need the space for yourself very badly at the moment.

I was struck by what you said about your work. I too work with troubled adolescents, in schools.  For a while I worried that I was too messed up myself to be a suitable person for these kids but now I believe we have a special insight that allows us to connect with them in a way that 'normal' people just can't. I so agree, beneath all the tough posturing they are frightened and vulnerable. I work in a very Person-Centred way, and I think the experience of being with an adult who tries to offer them empathy and lack of judgement is helpful to them. It sure puts some of my life experiences in perspective too, some of the things they have been through are so horrific.

The work is quite isolating in a way though, I don't have colleagues like I would in an office for example, and I think you were referring to this too? Not sure what the solution to this one might be.

We (my husband and I) went to our first ever Buddhist meditation class just before Christmas. I found it quite strange and alienating in a way, but the people there were lovely - very open and welcoming. We all stayed on to drink tea and talk afterwards. Mostly they were in their twenties and thirties I would say. We are probably going back when they start again in February, for a short course. I have though also about going to a Quaker group, which is something I did in my teens and have very fond memories of. Like you, I think, I'm searching for a group of people to feel some connection with, and it's hard in a materialistic and competitive world. Some of them are right here on this board though!

Wishing you peace in the New Year,

nightsong

Anonymous

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Gift of Voicefull Relations?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2003, 11:36:42 AM »
Acapella,

Most adults are in some way messed up from their childhoods. So you will always have to deal with dysfunction in other people. It helps to understand human behavior so you can strategize when you see certain patterns, and make decisions on whether this person is friendship material or not.

When I meet someone who is mature (level-headed, non-hysterical, flexible, sense of humor, philosophical, not overly defensive), I feel VERY LUCKY. But these people are rare.

bunny

Avery

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Gift of Voicefull Relations?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2003, 10:25:53 AM »
Acapella:

I have only been married for 2 years, so I really don't feel qualified to give any advice yet.javascript:emoticon(':wink:')  I just wanted to give you a ((((((Acapella))))) and hope that you're feeling better.  

Avery