Does my wife have NPD? Should I leave her?

[Marta]

Hi Arnold,

To diganose your wife, a therapist would have to see her, she'd have to cooperate, then the counsellor must find it OK and safe to tell her of the diagnosis (most NPD counsellors are biased against it, since they feel that it gives them better therapeutic access to just feed their clients illusions and go from there. THEN she should be willing to tell you what that diagnosis is, since according to confidentiality rules teh counsellor would not reveal it to anyone else. What are the chances of the joint probability of all the ifs holding up? I would say statistically zero.

There is another route, which most of us found. Through our own therapist, who told us about NPD and told us that ou parents/spouse may have it. Then there are some brave souls like you who found it on their own, and prefer to work on their problems independently.

If you feel that your spouse has NPD, then I'd say chances are that 99% she has it, especially because you say that you are a shadow of your former self. This is a clear giveaway.

As for helping her, most of us have learned the HARD way that they cannot be helped. So there is noreason why you should not choose the road well travelled too.  However, if you want to learn from others' experience, go into it with your eyes open, hope for the best but do prepare for the worst. If you ever confront an N, they will rob you, steal you, slander you, turn your loved ones against you. If it stops here, consider yourself lucky. So be prepared with your finances (e.g. if you have joint accounts, transfer the funds,) make plans to protect your children, etc. You may have accepted that you'd split these properties with her, but don't be suprized if she controls all of them 100% while you twiddle your thumb. If she has the power to do so, she most likely may. (My own Nmom did this to me!)

One critical peice of advice. YOU must control the timing of when you leave her. That means not letting it on before you are fully prepared. Remove fmily pictures, any other items that mean a lot to you from teh house before you do so. Ns are VERY likely to posssess and control and destroy such things.

The oft repeated advice is that you'll find out what teh narcissist is up to by listning to clues, by paying atention to what is it that she is accusing you of. If she accuses of you of theft, then that is what she is planning. If she accuses you of slander, then that is what she is engaging in.

Also, DONT expect your family or friends to entirely understand your ordeal. Only those who've had bouts with Ns can offer you true empathy. That is why many of us hang out here, even years after Ns have exited our lives.

Arnold, let us know how therapy goes. All the best.

Marta

My two favorite links for NPD. The first one is a must read academic paper.
http://www.ippnj.org/mcwilliams1.html
http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/
http://www.chameleongroup.org.uk/npd/index.html



 

[Portia]

Hi Arold (love the name by the way, do you stick like glue?!)

For a divorce will you cite ‘unreasonable behaviour’ (she’d fight that I would guess)  or ‘irretrievable breakdown’? Will she agree?

About divorce and money: NO! She does not automatically get half!

See this from the Citizens Advice Bureau. Unless you have kids, it’s about your assets and how much each of you has contributed to them. Has she paid for any of the property? Has she contributed financially? She may not be entitled to any of it. Here’s an extract:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/family_parent/family/ending_a_relationship.htm#Ending_a_marriage

"Court Orders
A husband, wife or civil partner can apply for a court order for financial support at the end of a relationship. You can do this after the relationship had formally ended, for example, by divorce or dissolution of a civil partnership.
The court will consider all the financial resources and assets of both partners, including pension arrangements.
In some circumstances, the court can also make an order for child maintenance to be paid.
A court can make an order for periodical maintenance payments to be made, that is, a specific sum at regular intervals, or for a specified lump sum. It can also make an order about pension arrangements."


*Don’t let your solicitor rip you off by making it more complex than it has to be!* (you can get books for English law on ‘how to do your own divorce’ which would clue you in to the legal process.) Good luck again.


Miss Piggy: I love the operation doubles website. Great information! Thank you!

[Brigid]

MP,
I tried to access the website you referenced and was denied.  Any suggestions??

Arold,
One more point about the logistics of divorce.  I am in the US, in a marital property state which means that all property purchased during the marriage is divided 50-50, but if you brought it in to the marriage, you can take it away.  Did you put a pre-nuptial agreement in place to protect your children's interests in the event of your death?  This is a necessity if you have a new marriage after the divorce of the marriage that produced the children (assuming this is allowed in the UK).  You need to meet with an attorney (solicitor) right away to determine what protections you need to put in place before you file the paperwork (if that is what you eventually do).  I guarantee that she will not play fairly and you will need to be well represented to protect your interests and those of your children.  You say now that you do not care what it costs, but don't do anything out of desperation that you will regret in the future.  No amount of money will make her easier to deal with.  I assume that she is employed and can take care of herself, and your marriage was short term--so you should not have to pay out any maintenance, nor should she be able to get any of your pension, but these are all things an attorney can answer for you. 

Trust me when I say that your therapist and your attorney are the two most important people in your life right now.  I hired a good one in each case (only by the grace of God and good referrals from friends) and am now in a very happy place and well taken care of financially.  I know wayyyyy too many people who made bad decisions in the throws of the divorce, and now live to regret it and wish they could go back and make some different choices.

I hope you are finding some help.

Brigid

[miss piggy]

Hey Arnold,

Agree with everyone here, in a word, save your humanity for the humane...


Brigid,

Maybe try googling on the title "What Makes a Narcissist Tick".  Maybe that will get you in. 

MP

[Brigid]

MP and Portia,
I don't want to hijack this thread, but just wanted to say thank you with the help in accessing that website.  It has some excellent information.  When I read "The Essence of Narcissism," it was a complete explanation of my xnh.  Thank you.

Brigid

[miss piggy]

Hi Brigid,

Glad you could get the website.  It's uncanny, isn't it?

You'll find my life story on the page about the making of a narcissist.  Just substitute an older brother for the Mary character and there you go.  It gave me a pretty upset stomach when I read it.    I wanted to go back into denial rather than again acknowledge to myself that my brother really is that selfish and my mother really is that blind.  That my father really is that sick. 

Are there really families that are N-free?

MP

[Sallying Forth]

Hi Arold,
Welcome to the forum!

I found a great book which talks about how to leave a relationship among many other great "normal" solutions to adult child problems. Here are some of their suggestions about leaving a relationship:

- Don't say you are ready to leave a relationship until you are ready to do so.
- Don't reinitiate contact with them especially if you are feeling lonely and vulnerable.
- If the other person is violent or suicidal or is endangering your family seek professional help ASAP.
- Just being friends doesn't work.

Mostly they are referring to non-marriage situations however this could be applied to any relationship.

What I get from what they have written (I posted the book on the What Helps part of this forum) is make a clean cut. Don't be willy wagging back and forth.

[Hopalong]

Boy is that sane, SF.
I willy-wagged so much in past relationships w/Ns that I came to resemble a person hanging on to the bumper of a speeding semi, scraping her feet off on the pavement, shrieking at the driver who couldn't hear her (much less see her in his rear-view mirror) and wouldn't give a hoot if he did: "But I'm having such a LOVELY trip with you, let me back in the cab!"

It was complete insanity. One small (actually huge) way I began to recognize I was breaking some old patterns was at the end of the last relationship with an N, a year ago. The willywaggies lasted only a few weeks and one day (with a boot in the behind from my N-ish but well-intentioned friend) I Saw Reality. And very qucikly after, felt nothing but aversion for that man. I have recoiled at the thought of him ever since. NO desire for contact and when I saw him on the street one day all I noticed was his very "haughty" body language. An interesting little N bit I'd read about somewhere. He's a somatic N.

Question is whether I'm brave enough to ever try any relationship at all again. But I think I will be. Maybe in 2006, or 2007, but whenever, slooooowly. Thanks for the reminder.

A_nld, how did your appointment with the T go, if you've had it already?

Hopalong

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya Arold

Welcome to the board.  I have found this place a santuary where I can post my thoughts and feelings without fearing reprocussions or judgements.  It is an amazing place.  I feel the others have given you some very sound advice.

Whether your wife has NPD or not is something that you will possibly never definitely know, so I would advise to trust your own judgements and instincts on this.  Regarding leaving her, only you can decide.  I feel that because you are posting here and you are finding out as much information as possible, you are giving yourself chance to make a decision.  In the long run, what would make you happy?  You are very much a part of your marriage and it's so easy to forget about yourself because everything is about them.

As you've had a on again off again relationship, you will possibly know how she reacts when your off?  It may be advisable to use this information wisely as this would give you an insight of what to expect.  There will possibly be a time where it becomes ugly once she realises it is permanently off.

Regarding your assets, I hope your solicitor can help you there.  Although I'm in the UK, I'm not sure how it all works.  I think it may depend on the grounds of the divorce but I'm not sure.

Keep posting and take care.

H&H

[Sallying Forth]

Try the links I posted to the What Helps topic on the other board. You want to see lists of symptoms, attitudes, beliefs, weaknesses and vices - that website its the best for detail. It is technical but easy enough to understand.

Here is an example of the detail. Weaknesses:

Pride, vanity, vainglory, superbia, superiority, hubris, overbearingness, haughtiness, separateness, insensitivity, self-importance, egoism, ego-centricity, wrath, arrogance, malice, hypocrisy, skepticism, ignorance.

[arold_ite]

I’d like to thank you all for your wonderful, kind words of encouragement and advice.  I can’t begin to tell you how happy I am that this site exists, this is exactly what I need right now.

I’ve been for my first session with the therapist and she helped me to understand that this isn’t my fault.  My self-esteem has taken a massive bashing over the past four years and I really need to get myself back to where I was before I met this poisonous woman.

I understand all of the theory now.  I’ve read four books on the subject and it’s like reading a book of my own life! 

What I need to do now is surround myself with the friends and family that she cut me off from.  I also need to emerge myself in my work and various past-times.

The problem that I still have is that over the past few days, I’ve had this incredible feeling of emptiness.  I can’t stop thinking about her with somebody else.  I know her well enough to know that she’ll be on the lookout for somebody else even as we speak.  Also, the books tell me that this is classic N behaviour as she needs to get her N fix.

I understand all of this, and part of me is saying ‘Thank God.  She can find somebody else and leave me alone.  Pity the poor guy that she finds’.  But, another part of me is growing insanely jealous and my mind is filled with pictures of her with another man.

When I walked out on her, I wasn’t sure if she was an N, and I also wasn’t sure whether I should leave her for good or not.  Having been to the therapy, read the books and thought about this for a long time, I now realise that she is DEFINITELY as narcissist, and if I know what’s good for me, I should definitely leave her.  However, all of this information doesn’t make it any easier to bear.

I nearly went back to her last night.  I sent her a text message.  When she didn’t reply, I drove to her apartment.  I had to force myself not to knock on the door and go in.  When she eventually did reply about an hour later, I was feeling stronger and told her that I was having a mad half hour and that she should ignore me, which she did.

Part of me is thinking that I should find another woman to take my mind off of her.  But I know that this would be a very bad idea.  As I said, for the moment, I think I’ll immerse myself in my work, friends, family and past-times.

Thanks for listening guys.  It’s a great help to write and share these words.  It’s helping to bring me clarity.

Arold

[Chicken]

Arold,

Hang in there.  It's not easy.  This is the difficult part.  This is the toxic part.  It's like you are tangled up in each other and it's so hard to pull yourself away from her.  Try very hard to take your energy off her and put it onto yourself instead.  Write if it helps.  Talk about your feelings and try to figure out why rather than what you are feeling.  Question why you are so attracted to someone who is so unhealthy and unavailable.  I am sure this spot triggers feelings of rejection (Even though you are rejecting her) and abandonment in you.  Combat those feelings by educating yourself about them. 

I understand SO WELL that panic feeling thing that comes over you at that stage in the relationship when they don't take your call, you feel like you are losing them and you run towards them, all logic thought has gone out the window completely and you are caught up in something that makes no sense.  It's so horrible, but ride with it.  Stay with the pain of it knowing it will pass.  DO NOT ACT ON IT.

You know now what a simple text can lead to.  Don't set yourself up like that again.  Look out for yourself.

...and keep posting

[arold_ite]

Thanks Selkie, you are SO right!  It was stupid of me to send that text message.  I had to think about it for about an hour before I sent it.  I stupidly and rather predictably believed that after one simple text message, everything would be ok again.

I should have thought it through more.  By sending that message, I put her in a position of control.  Don’t get me wrong, I know this isn’t about control, but up until this point, I’ve been in control of my own thoughts and emotions.  What I did last night was to put her back in control of me.

I’ve been trying to imagine why I feel so painful and empty inside, knowing what I do about her.  My conclusion is that I have been well and truly BRAINWASHED.  She is a master at telling me how good she is for me.  She constantly tells me that I’ll never find anybody better than her.  She is a very attractive woman and she uses this against me.  She’s always telling me how easy it would be for her to find another man and how difficult it will be for me.  I think it’s this brainwashing that is causing me to have these jealous feelings.

I guess by understanding it, it makes it a little easier to deal with.

Thanks again
Arold

[Chicken]

By sending that message, I put her in a position of control.  Don’t get me wrong, I know this isn’t about control, but up until this point, I’ve been in control of my own thoughts and emotions.  What I did last night was to put her back in control of me.

I remember that feeling well.  Thats EXACTLY it.  It's supposed to be about you (for once); it's your journey, your realisation, your welfare and your choice to walk away but those texts and those slip up's make it into a game of cat and mouse.  Don't go there.  It's not going to change a thing.  This has happened now and there is no turning back.  The only way is forward.  Find your path now and start listening to yourself this time.

I have been with someone who has made me feel like shit too.  They bigged themselves up just so that they could put me down.  it's power play.  It's not love.  It's a tactic to keep you in place.  It is indeed brainwashing and it happens everyday, people can have such an immense power over each other.  There was an interesting article on brainwashing in relationships, someone will post the link on here I am sure as i can't remember it now. 

It's going to take some time to regain your sense of self, there will be lots of temptations to go back to the one who made you into who you are now, that's the draw.  Keep away from her.  She is dangerous to your psyche!  You will find love if you take yourself away from her and find you again.

[Brigid]

arold,
I guarantee you that you are experiencing the same feelings of abandonment, fear of being alone, longing for the person you thought they were, jealousy over new relationships and sadness that most all of us have felt when separating from our n relationships--no matter which partner made the decision to leave.  When my xnh left me for another woman after 22 years of marriage, I was absolutely devastated and would have done anything at the time to have him come back.  Thank God he was not willing, thinking that this new chick was going to make him "normal" sexually and that he "loved" her.

A lot of therapy brought me to realize that my marriage was not healthy, nor could it ever be unless my xh went through a great deal of therapy.  Since he did not see himself as having a problem--he viewed his sexual problems as being all my fault that would be fixed with a new partner--no amount of therapy would have helped him.

It has been 2 1/2 years since it all began.  I was in weekly therapy for 2 of those years and just recently said goodbye to my therapist as, at least for now, I have found peace and serenity and am healthier emotionally than ever before.  My strongest recommendations to you right now would be:

 1.  Please don't jump into any new relationships right now.  I was tempted by this early on to show my xh that I could find someone who wanted me like he had found someone.  Most likely you would end up with another bad choice as you would not have the skills to seek someone healthy--nor would you be healthy.  In order to find a healthy partner, you need to be healthy yourself.  BTW, my x's married girlfriend ultimately decided to stay with her husband and as far as I know my xh has not found a replacement.  I, on the other hand, am in a great relationship now.

2. Try not to fill up all your time with work or other distractions.  You need to sit and feel the pain, grief, anger and work through it--not avoid it with other activities.  It's fine to spend some time doing things you enjoy--spending time with your children, exercising, work projects, or maybe even finding something new to try that you've always wanted to do--but don't let it consume you.  Try to find some quiet moments in each day to feel your pain.  It's so tempting to avoid it, but imho, very necessary to face it, if you want to heal from it.

3.  Avoid having any contact with her (I know you know this).  Since you don't have children together, which in my case, forced me to have some contact, you can avoid her altogether.  She will, most likely, go in search of a new victim very soon, if she hasn't already.  Keep in mind, whatever relationships she has will never mean anything.  She is not capable of feeling or giving love.  She is an empty shell looking for someone to fill her up.  It is like a drug addict needing a fix--it will only be temporary and will never be a sustainable relationship.  You have the ability to find real love that she will never have.  You may actually feel some compassion for her one day for that.  I have sort of reached that point with my xnh--but mostly, I feel nothing where he is concerned these days.

I can so relate to and understand your sadness.  I promise that it does get better if you take your time and work through the stages.

Many blessings,

Brigid