Author Topic: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD  (Read 8222 times)

Sallying Forth

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Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« on: December 12, 2005, 12:43:39 PM »
Hoarding:
Hoarding involves the excessive saving or collecting of items, typically thought of as junk, such that it intrudes on the quality of life for the hoarder or those living with such a person. (Research at the Center for Cognitive-Behavioral Psychotherapy has begun to gain further insight into the relationship between hoarding and OCPD.) In a significant percentage of cases, people lack the insight that they are behaving in an unhealthy manner. When persons are not cognizant of the irrational nature of this condition it is referred to as overvalued ideation (ego-syntonic OCD). Typically this form of OCD involves a poor prognosis since the individual is rarely willing to confront the challenges offered by the treatment. This lack of willingness to see one's own culpability has a very adverse impact on the quality of life for those around him. Many hoarders, however, are well aware of the adverse impact of this condition and suffer tremendously as a consequence of seeing all free space within their living environment occupied. Renting extra storage space to pick up the overflow of ones own living environment is not uncommon.


I knew a woman where I live who is this way. There was literally a narrow path through her entire home. Every room was filled with stuff and more stuff. Her husband and child suffered greatly for this woman's behavior but the woman was totally oblivious to their pain.

That is the same situation here in my household. There is crap everywhere. Most has little or no value but my h has to buy it. It is everywhere and it drives me wacky because he wont jettison the stuff. One room is filled with used electronics, a drawers of his clothes he no longer wears but keeps, and finally piles of clothes he doesn't wear. When one device fails he keeps it and shelves it. An attic space is filled with used this and that. He refuses to throw anything out. On the deck is old furniture, building materials, and what was once a beautiful commercial range. On the porch are more electronics, miscellaneous pieces of wood and building materials. In the yard there are two project vehicles, tons and I do mean tons of scrap metal, old and unusable building material, and miscellaneous old items he refuses to throw out.

Where hoarding is a component of OCPD, the justification for saving items typically involves one of the following rationales. In many instances there is a deep commitment related to the "sinfulness of waste." A father may say to his wife, "Why throw out the diapers when they're still in perfectly good shape," referring of course to their 15 year old daughter's leftover diapers. "Who knows? Maybe when she's a new parent the baby will be able to use these diapers."

I have heard similar things througout the years. "Don't throw that out. It is still in perfectly good shape. Maybe someone else could use it." In others words if there is no hole in it or it isn't completely faded there is still hope for it.

Another perspective which supports the hoarder's resistance to throwing out items is the possibility that the item may come in handy at some point in the future. Throwing away four year old TV guides would cause a tremendous upheaval since Mom may want to see which program was on NBC 9:00 pm Thursday 1994.

I can't even count the number of times I have heard that phrase the item may come in handy at some point in the future. This is like reading my h's diary. These are all the things he has said and done.

Another determinant for hoarding involves the endless projects on the "to do list." Perfectionism often stymies the OCPD's ability to complete tasks. Rather than abandoning projects, they become piled up and the fantasy is maintained that some day they will be gotten to.

Ahhhhh ... the endless "to do lists!" My h claims he doesn't do this behavior. Yikes the man's got all of the determinants!!! :shock: He is forever making "to do lists" and losing them. I have found them all over the house. Now I just throw them out in the recycling trash. He has lists and lists of projects but never gets around to them because of his perfectionism.

And I am starting to recycle and uncrap the rest of this house. The bigger stuff will be much more difficult but it will get tackled eventually. I know that is why when I started to get depressed I knew I needed medication because there is so much to do. I can't get bogged down in a downward spiral of depression.

Come Spring there is going to be a rain or shine, huge garage and yard sale. Everything goes type sale. Then I will put the money in my savings account for my first visit to my chosen moving spot.

I'll never forget how much money my h made off his first moving sale in another state. He had so much crap! Ugh! Glad to know this is an actual psychological condition. Not happy to know it has invaded my life for so many years. He is never going to change!

The treatment of OCPD is incredibly complex and lengthy.

More proof - exit stage left. :)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 03:42:13 AM by Sallying Forth »
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Moira

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2005, 08:16:02 PM »
Ay yes, hoarding...a painful existence for both parties. i also have OCD and do hoard certain things. clothes are one of my things- closets full, piles on floors, bags stuffed, trunks full, storage spaces full, storage rented, stuff at other people's places etc etc. Need I go on? And that's just one of my things. I hoard clothes in styles and colours I'll never wear. I buy and hoard clothes in sizes I'll never fit on both sides of the scale. It's insane and it's not something I chose to do. In fact, it's torture. I cannot stop it. I take medication and am in therapy and that does help. If stress in my life is manageable I can sometimes tolerate people to come into my place and I leave so they can do their thing and get rid of stuff they know I'll never use. Stuff gets carted out to charities etc. I can't have my things taken anywhere in a 10 mile radious of where I live because I'm compelled to track it down, buy it if need be and return it to my place- or go out and start all over again, replacing it. It's brutal. some people think this is irritating and others find it amusing- I can assure you it's neither. It is a relationship and imtimacy killer for both parties. I know it's hell to live with someone with OCD. I grew up in a OCD house and I never thought I'd " be like them". Right now I'm in a manageable phase for me but to an outsider who doesn't know me it can look pretty scary! No one sees my bedroom- ever! That's pretty weird and painful for an adult woman who is a professional and is well liked. Few people see my inner sanctum. I feel for anyone who has OCD and anyone who lives with one of us. It sucks! Moira
I've just ended abusive relationship of 1 yr. with male narcissist. I cycle between stages of anger and grieving and have accepted it. Hope I've alienated him so he won't recontact me- is this possible?     Moira

Brigid

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2005, 08:30:37 PM »
Sally,
I can't tell you how many unfinished projects I lived with over the years.  The only way anything ever got finished was if I did it or I hired somebody to do it.  I used to beg him not to start a new project, as I knew it would sit halfway done forever more.  Of course, he never listened to me, would start the project and then go into his passive/aggressive mode if I said anything about it.  The dumbest thing I ever did was to buy a home with him that needed a lot of fixing up.  I lived for 10 years with projects all throughout the house that he had started and then left.  I did all the wallpaper removal, painting, staining, etc., but his stuff only got finished when we decided to put the house on the market and it had to be done.  Of course, he had to hire a handy man to finish all his things.  It was one of a number of things about him that drove me crazy--but I was considered an ungrateful bitch if I said anything.

My xh also saved everything.  Every time we moved, we had a ton of crap that we had to take with us that never got used.  I was so happy to throw away, give away and donate a garage full of junk when I sold our family home and moved to where I am now. 

It's amazing how they have so many of the same traits.

Brigid

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2005, 01:07:52 AM »
I have a hoarding problem myself.  I have been trying to get rid of stuff by using freecycle.org.  You find your geographic community, and then you post things you don't want, and then people come and take it from you!  I always procrastinate taking things to charity, so I have really enjoyed listing things to give away, and within minutes, someone wants it!  Although I am afraid I am contributing to someone else's hoarding problems, there are many times when people say that they are collecting for a needy family or a worthy cause.  At the very least it is going to a good cause, and it fulfills my need that "it might be useful someday."  I've found that if I really take time to evaluate whether I love something or just tolerate it, and if I can specify who could enjoy and use an item that is just collecting dust in my house, it is much easier to get rid of things.

Stranded

Sallying Forth

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2005, 03:07:22 AM »
Ay yes, hoarding...a painful existence for both parties. i also have OCD and do hoard certain things. clothes are one of my things- closets full, piles on floors, bags stuffed, trunks full, storage spaces full, storage rented, stuff at other people's places etc etc. Need I go on? And that's just one of my things. I hoard clothes in styles and colours I'll never wear. I buy and hoard clothes in sizes I'll never fit on both sides of the scale. It's insane and it's not something I chose to do. In fact, it's torture. I cannot stop it. I take medication and am in therapy and that does help. If stress in my life is manageable I can sometimes tolerate people to come into my place and I leave so they can do their thing and get rid of stuff they know I'll never use. Stuff gets carted out to charities etc. I can't have my things taken anywhere in a 10 mile radious of where I live because I'm compelled to track it down, buy it if need be and return it to my place- or go out and start all over again, replacing it. It's brutal. some people think this is irritating and others find it amusing- I can assure you it's neither. It is a relationship and imtimacy killer for both parties. I know it's hell to live with someone with OCD. I grew up in a OCD house and I never thought I'd " be like them". Right now I'm in a manageable phase for me but to an outsider who doesn't know me it can look pretty scary! No one sees my bedroom- ever! That's pretty weird and painful for an adult woman who is a professional and is well liked. Few people see my inner sanctum. I feel for anyone who has OCD and anyone who lives with one of us. It sucks! Moira

Hello Moira,
OCD is not OCPD. These are two different disorders with similarities.

Here is an explanation:
OCPD and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) are often confused as they are thought of as being similar. There is, however, a great difference between the two conditions.  Persons with OCD experience tremendous anxiety related to specific preoccupations, which are perceived as threatening. Within the condition of OCPD it is one's dysfunctional philosophy which produces anxiety, anguish and frustration. It has been well established that OCD is a condition in which people perform elaborate rituals to avoid or escape anxiety. Repetitive rituals are performed to undo the threat. Their overall genuine nature tends not to be affected by the condition and in the vast majority of the cases they recognize that the concerns are irrational. A person with washing rituals due to fears about contracting aids from a public door knob might still be very willing to sky dive or go white water rafting. This suggests that a person's inclination toward risk taking is not affected by their anxiety about germs.

This paper will attempt to convey a personality style that has devastating effects on one's emotional wellbeing, work productivity and interpersonal relationships. Although there is a moderate overlap between OCPD and OCD in regard to similarity of rituals, the pervasive differences might justify a relabeling (such as perfectionistic personality disorder) of this condition. OCPD wreaks havoc within a person's life due to a dysfunctional perspective. The movie "As Good as It Gets" unfortunately portrays a muddled combination of these two conditions, although it was touted as the OCD movie. The main character engages in a variety of OCD rituals, yet his overall demeanor is that of an angry, belligerent, intolerant loner who clearly has an exaggerated form of OCPD as his main handicap.
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Sallying Forth

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2005, 03:17:17 AM »
Sally,
I can't tell you how many unfinished projects I lived with over the years.  The only way anything ever got finished was if I did it or I hired somebody to do it.  I used to beg him not to start a new project, as I knew it would sit halfway done forever more.  Of course, he never listened to me, would start the project and then go into his passive/aggressive mode if I said anything about it.  The dumbest thing I ever did was to buy a home with him that needed a lot of fixing up.  I lived for 10 years with projects all throughout the house that he had started and then left.  I did all the wallpaper removal, painting, staining, etc., but his stuff only got finished when we decided to put the house on the market and it had to be done.  Of course, he had to hire a handy man to finish all his things.  It was one of a number of things about him that drove me crazy--but I was considered an ungrateful bitch if I said anything.

My xh also saved everything.  Every time we moved, we had a ton of crap that we had to take with us that never got used.  I was so happy to throw away, give away and donate a garage full of junk when I sold our family home and moved to where I am now. 

It's amazing how they have so many of the same traits.

Brigid

Hi Brigid,
Was he positively passive/aggressive?

The reason I ask is I always said my h was that and asked my t if he might be. He said no. However after reading about OCPD I have come to realize the two prevailing attitudes that my h has would appear to be P/A. Those attitudes are compliance/defiance. This is how they typically respond to everything in their lives which they don't want to do or no longer want to do or when someone confronts them.

I also used to ask my t if my h might be multiple because of the vascilliating emotions such as compliance/defiance. Now I understand the disorder and it makes perfect sense. Only it makes a sense that I want nothing to do with ever again.

His aunt is not the hoarding type but the "neat as a pin" type. She can tell you where each item of clothing she is located in her drawers. Her home is perfect. Her garage perfect. Her life perfect. Perfectly disqustingly anal retentive! gag! My N & OCPD mother all over again. :lol: And his Nmother was just like him, a hoarder. She had many of the quirks that my h has. :lol:
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Sallying Forth

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2005, 03:38:01 AM »
Thank you Sally for bringing this OCD-N connection to light. My exNH seems to fit the bill too. When we moved to another country, he insisted that the movers pack a 3 metre bar of re-inforcing steel - in case he needed it. He could also never finish anything, big or small. He would always leave the last mouthful of food on his plate 'for the little people'. I was also stupid enough (Brigid) to buy a house with him that needed major renovating. A potentially beautiful house, the floorboards in the dining room were laid just before it sold. There was no floor for years, only dirt and the bearers.
You've cleared up a lot of the questions that I used to have. I knew somehow that it wasn't just him reacting to me, (eg. stubborness in deliberately not doing something because I would ask him to) but that it was something deeper.


Hi Kaz,
Please read this again. It is NOT OCD. This is Obsessive - Compulsive  Personality  Disorder. This is a disorder of the personality not a medical condition. My t calls it Perfectionistic Personality Disorder, that is it's other name.


Also people with ADHD, which was the original diagnosis my h got, can hoard and collect things and also not get projects done, not be able to focus and get caught up in the details.


It is the overall picture not just the hoarding. The interpersonal relationships. The compliance/defiance attitude. The workaholic behavior. The addictions which they aren't addicted to like other people would be. Indecisiveness. Emotional rigidity. Depressed mood. Perfectionism. Hoarding.  Ordering. And much more.

The deliberately not doing something is their compliance/defiance attitude. I truly despise and hate this part of the disorder. And he used to call me augumentative! Geesh! He's the one picking the fights by his attitude.

I can relate to the unfinished home Kaz. I am living in the second of those projects. He is currently working on the third one. He has to fix it just right. It has to be perfectly perfect. He tells me about breaking down and crying over not being able to do it any  more. I have zero empathy for that any more. I do have pity. I have heard it and seen it too many times to care to hear it any more. Half way through this partially unfinished home he decided the old roof could stay because he had lost the focus and energy to finish. Guess what part of our roof leaks now? The old roof which was had only new shingles. So I live in a leaky roof home. Makes me want to scream.

And there was supposed to be a room added onto the back. The foundation is there but no room. Ugh! The final inspection has not been done on this home!!! EEK! :shock:
The truth is in me.[/color]

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Chicken

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2005, 05:41:34 AM »
Gosh, I am the opposite! I throw things away too easily!  Then I regret throwing them away when I find use for them, or they come back into fashion!  :)

Sallying Forth

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2005, 06:21:24 AM »
Gosh, I am the opposite! I throw things away too easily!  Then I regret throwing them away when I find use for them, or they come back into fashion!  :)

That is me Selkie. I tend to toss and then think later, I could have used that.

My h is also a shopaholic. I can't standing shopping. I make my list, get my stuff and get out. My h of course looks for the bargain and we always have to buy what is on sale. I don't shop that way ever since living 90% alone. Very interesting when my h does shop with me and I buy whatever I want. He gives me strange looks.
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Sallying Forth

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2005, 06:23:53 AM »
Sorry Sally, yes I do know that OCD is different; I should have written OCPD not OCD. (I work with a full-on OCDer and my daughter was diagnosed with OCD traits).
My ex on the other hand is a different kettle of fish, and like I said you have shed light on his
Quote
interpersonal relationships. The compliance/defiance attitude. The workaholic behavior. The addictions which they aren't addicted to like other people would be. Indecisiveness. Emotional rigidity. Depressed mood. Perfectionism. Hoarding.  Ordering. And much more.
This is spot on. It really had me perplexed and I remember coming to a point where I wondered if he had some sort of handicap/disorder. This was 10-15 years ago, long before I knew anything about Personality Disorders.
I don't really need to analyse him anymore though, we parted company and I have nothing more to do with him. But it is interesting what you've found.
I do feel for you living in a half baked house. I now live in a newish home, all my own, everything is done and I love it!


No problem, Kaz. Someday I will live in a "normal" house. I look forward to that day.

Thank goodness you are no longer in that relationship. I know how difficult and trying it is. I look forward to being free of it.
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Healing&Hopeful

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2005, 06:55:20 AM »
Wow Sallying.... thanks for posting this!  I never knew there was a connection at all.  My N bio dad keeps everything.  The only rooms you can get in are the lounge and one bedroom which isn't filled with junk.

Here is one of his posts so you can see just what it's like.... It's the one he posted on Mon Nov 7th at 7.36 pm!

http://forum.dawncraftowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7927&highlight=#7927

I just thought it was him.  Mum is a hoarder too but not to the same extent as bio dad... she collects bells, and has loads of shelves with lots of ornaments, dressers with more ornaments etc etc.

Me, I went the other way.... Clothes are given to charity, we have very few nic naks around our house, just odd little bits that we bought on holiday and a few photos.  I find it hard to breathe in a cluttered house!  The only thing I have a few off is shoes.... I do love my shoes :o)

H&H xx
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Sallying Forth

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2005, 07:07:15 AM »
Oh my H&H! That is my h's shop, porch, deck and yard! Oh my that is just way too familiar. This is a separate PD from N and not an aspect of N at all.


I do wonder how many N's also have OCPD though. Maybe a poll would be interesting. Seems my h and m aren't the only ones out there. Two of men I dated were like this as well! And ALL OF MY recent girlfriends were N and OCPD. One hoarded and was into orderliness.

My hairdresser is OCPD to the max. She apologized once for messy kitchen. Wow, there were a few dishes in the sink from her lunch.  She has several unfinished projects around her home because they have to be done perfectly. Her mother is Borderline and possibly N. She is/was obsessed with exercise to the point of nearly becoming anorexic. She was bulemic.
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Healing&Hopeful

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2005, 07:17:32 AM »
This is really interesting Sallying....

That room is that same as I remember it when I was growing up... I'm not even sure that anything has really been used, just a bit more junk been added to it.  I used to find it really scary as a kid!.

He has two reception rooms downstairs.  Normally the one next to the kitchen would be used as a dining room and the one at the front with the main large window would be used as a sitting room.  Not him... the one at the front is filled with junk with just enough of a walkway to get through, and the one at the back is his sitting room which is a very dark room anyway.

My SIL is very orderly.  Their home is spotless.  She told me it stems from her ex h who used to yell and scream at her if there were fingermarks on anything or one of the cushions wasn't a certain way!  I also see a lot of narcisstic traits in her parents.

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Sallying Forth

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2005, 07:32:04 AM »
H&H,
I found through my reading that the orderliness with my NPD & OCPD mother stems from her OCPD rather than her NPD. She was into perfectionism big time. Everything in our home as a child was spotless. You could eat off the floor. She methodically, obsessively and compulsively cleaned 6 days a week. The front, side and back yards were perfect.

Never anything out of place to the point of a hummingbird's nest was discouraged because it messed up my mother's garden.

If too many kittens were born she would drown the rest in a 5lb coffee can. She had to be in control of all aspects of her life and all living creatures life which she made contact with her. The kittens in the coffee can still bothers me to this day. I don't know how she could take the life of something so helpless and defenseless. It just disgusts me! :twisted: Then she turns around and feels pity for a partially drowned, diesel covered cat. I couldn't understand this at all.

Then she can turn around and buy a special dog for herself and my father. BLECH!!!

My mother was/is not a hoarder of junk but of money. She can never have enough and is stingier than my h! And my h is stingy!
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Healing&Hopeful

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Re: Hoarding - aspect of OCPD
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2005, 07:49:25 AM »
If too many kittens were born she would drown the rest in a 5lb coffee can. She had to be in control of all aspects of her life and all living creatures life which she made contact with her. The kittens in the coffee can still bothers me to this day. I don't know how she could take the life of something so helpless and defenseless. It just disgusts me! :twisted: Then she turns around and feels pity for a partially drowned, diesel covered cat. I couldn't understand this at all.


This is sick... I'm not surprised that still bothers you!  There is no understanding of her behaviour because you are thinking rationally.  A rational person would never consider such a thing.  That's the trouble with PD because treating people with them rationally leads to more confusion for us.  We automatically assume that because we would respond in a rational way, we expect them to respond in the same way... it's very confusing when this doesn't happen. xx
Here's a little hug for u
To make you smilie while ur feeling blue
To make u happy if you're sad
To let u know, life ain't so bad
Now I've given a hug to u
Somehow, I feel better too!
Hugs r better when u share
So pass one on & show u care