Author Topic: Autistic Spectrum  (Read 2896 times)

October

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Autistic Spectrum
« on: December 15, 2005, 04:00:43 PM »
The other night there were several programmes on telly, all dealing with aspects of autism.  I watched because a good friend of mine has two autustic children, a boy with Aspergers, and a girl who is at the same age as the boy when his condition became more pronounced, who is now developing her own condition more fully.  I watched to enable me to empathise more fully with my friend, and also in case there was any information of use to her.  Understandably, when living with this 24 hours a day, she did not watch the programmes.

One thing it said is that autistic children have no concept that what is in their head is not also in everyone else's head.  Normal children come to their mother to tell them things.  Autistic children expect them to already know.  They have to learn that this is not so.

At one point in the programme an older man was introduced, who is a grandfather.  He attended the diagnosis of his grandsons' autism, and while he was there the doctor noticed his behaviours, which led to another diagnosis.  The grandfather was also on the spectrum, but had never been noticed before, because his condition predated the introduction of autism in this country as a concept.

This grandfather's unusual behaviours include not being able to throw anything away, compulsive collecting, always thinking his view is the only one that exists, and the inability to make emotional connections. 

Same as my mother.  So I am now reassessing what I know of her, and considering whether what we need is not the N label, which (in me at least) carries a huge value judgment with it, that she has somehow failed me by not choosing to be empathic and maternal, and I am considering instead the autistic spectrum label, which might enable me to find a way through this without judging her.

I have for some time thought my yb might be asbergers.  Now this connection with my mother, and if all fits, with my grandmother as well.

However, I need more information.  Just thought it worth mentioning.

Hopalong

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2005, 05:18:47 PM »
WOW, that is an exciting and helpful train of thought, October!
To actually have a different way of interpreting lack of empathy than JUST "narcissism" would be a huge relief in some circumstances, I think. And maybe this is one door that will let a lot of light through.

The disheartening thing about that hollow blank absence of love (or in the worst cases, sadistic abuse)...is the sense of being completely defeated. I tilt toward primitive thoughts like, I'm in the presence of evil. That engenders helplessness, hopelessness, and the kind of paralysis or pain that we're all here always trying to help each other climb out of.

But maybe it's not the presence of anything, but the absence of an ABILITY to love or empathize (for perhaps some Asperpers-like reason?)...and whether that's in the broken brain or because of a broken life or because of whatever mystery causes they'll identify in 200 years...maybe that absence causes people to grow twisted, and become attracted to cruelty.

Thanks for this startling connection of concepts. Please share any more thoughts you have on this!

Hopalong
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2005, 06:03:40 PM »
Dear Doc G!
Could you please tell us what you know about this?

(She asked humbly...)

Hopalong
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October

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2005, 06:28:33 PM »
WOW, that is an exciting and helpful train of thought, October!
To actually have a different way of interpreting lack of empathy than JUST "narcissism" would be a huge relief in some circumstances, I think. And maybe this is one door that will let a lot of light through.

Thanks for this startling connection of concepts. Please share any more thoughts you have on this!

Hopalong

Thanks, Hopalong.  It sounds as if you are having the same kind of reaction to this thought as I am.  I think I am stuck in resenting my mum, and I want to move past that, and also past the whole personality disorder thing too, if I can.  I don't think it would be any easier for me to suggest to  mum that she is autistic spectrum, than that she is narcissistic - neither would achieve anything but histrionics, I think.  But it might help me to find my own way forward.

I had made the asbergers connection with my brother, so I knew there was some kind of link, but not so much with my mum, and from her, to all Ns.  All of them.  What a thought!

The other aspect I am allowing to kind of incubate in my thoughts alongside this one is the emotional connection thing.  I know that in my own case this kind of connection is broken by emotional trauma or shock.  What I don't know is how to mend it again.  Autistic people have the same kind of problem, except that in my case I know what is missing, and I know what it used to feel like.  I know the connections have gone, but that they used to be there, and I can intellectualise the behaviours.  I know that I used to feel love, and that would make me want to hug my daughter.  I can no longer feel the love, but I know that I love her, in spite of that, and so I still do the hugging thing.  It does not connect emotionally any more with me, but I know that it does with her, so that is why I do it.

I am kind of like a normal person, who got the emotional connections burned out over the years by one trauma after another (cptsd) and now have very few left, if any.  So I can feel what it is like to be disconnected, in a way.  The empathy remains, but the feelings have gone.

So maybe I am like a half way kind of animal.  Neither fully connected nor fully N/autistic/disconnected.  Bit worrying when you think about neural connections getting destroyed, and wonder whether you can ever mend them again.

Hopalong

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2005, 07:38:55 PM »
October,

Ohh I bet you can. I can also imagine how distressing it would be to fear you can't.
But in a way, to go back to spiritual vocabulary...emotional love is a more superficial thing than spiritual love is.

So...even if you're not feeling the warm flow of the emotion "love"--you are still GIVING love by embracing your daughter. And that comes from the "right intention". The deeper stuff.

This is such a trite thing to say, but there is that "fake it until you make it" notion. With biologically proven examples such as intentionally smiling having physiological consequences that lift mood, for example...

Even if your loving gestures feel "fake" to you now or you're dealing with residual numbness, I'd say never, ever, ever give up on the thought that if you just keep living a loving life...you will at one point begin to feel the loving emotion again. We do rewire and rewire ourselves in subtle, tiny steps over time. I think there aren't that many AHA moments or grand conversions as there are gradual awarenesses of small signs of healing. And it's all cumulative.

And to go back to Victor Frankl...the worst that could happen? Even if you couldn't retrieve that full feeling (which I don't believe for a moment would be your outcome)--but even if you couldn't...you wind up have lived a loving life.

That's not chopped liver.

With love or right intention or white light or loving thought...
Hopalong
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Sallying Forth

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2005, 08:20:00 PM »
Thanks, Hopalong.  It sounds as if you are having the same kind of reaction to this thought as I am.  I think I am stuck in resenting my mum, and I want to move past that, and also past the whole personality disorder thing too, if I can. ...

The other aspect I am allowing to kind of incubate in my thoughts alongside this one is the emotional connection thing.  I know that in my own case this kind of connection is broken by emotional trauma or shock.  What I don't know is how to mend it again.  ...
I am kind of like a normal person, who got the emotional connections burned out over the years by one trauma after another (cptsd) and now have very few left, if any.  So I can feel what it is like to be disconnected, in a way.  The empathy remains, but the feelings have gone.

Hi October,
Interesting about what you said here. You are stuck in resenting your mum.

Resentment is deep and bitter anger. You can't move past it until you heal from the sadness, pain and hurt beneath the anger.

Yes, you are normal. I had the same response to my childhood and my mother, father and brother.

This is definitely one of those times the old adage applies, No pain, no gain.

On Dr. Irene's web site there is an article about avoiding the trap of anger and getting stuck. There is no way around the pain. You have to go through it if you want to heal.

Then one day instead of going through the motions of hugging your daughter you will have the feelings which go with it.
The truth is in me.[/color]

I'm Sallying Forth on a new adventure! :D :D :D

October

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2005, 02:07:20 PM »
There is no way around the pain. You have to go through it if you want to heal.

Then one day instead of going through the motions of hugging your daughter you will have the feelings which go with it.


I am certain you are right.  However, I don't know how.  All I know is what we (my family) do.  And what we do is to do the next thing, whatever the cost.  If the feelings get in the way, they get switched off.  So I switched them off, and I don't know what to do to bring them back again.

It is as if there is an off switch, but no on switch.  As a result I survive, and I am resilient, and I can do anything that life throws at me, and it certainly throws some horrible stuff.  But the price I pay is that I am not alive.  Just existing.

I was never taught how to do anything else.  I know the theory, but I have no idea how to achieve it.

October

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2005, 02:11:03 PM »

And to go back to Victor Frankl...the worst that could happen? Even if you couldn't retrieve that full feeling (which I don't believe for a moment would be your outcome)--but even if you couldn't...you wind up have lived a loving life.

That's not chopped liver.

With love or right intention or white light or loving thought...
Hopalong

Thanks, Hoppy.  Even if I never can mend, then at least my daughter survives intact, and has the emotional validation she needs to remain so.  As you say, that is not chopped liver.   :lol:

I would like sometimes ...

Never mind.  Maybe it will happen one day, when I am not looking for it.  But after nine years of not feeling anything, I suspect it will never happen for me again.  It feels like having a broken heart.  Perhaps that is what was meant by that phrase, when it was used in the past.

Marta

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2005, 11:45:03 PM »
My two cents. Ns have a destructive tendency and an intention to hurt and spread chaos. They lie and cheat. I don't think that there is any evidence that the autistic are prone to this behavior.

I
Quote
t is as if there is an off switch, but no on switch.  As a result I survive, and I am resilient, and I can do anything that life throws at me, and it certainly throws some horrible stuff.  But the price I pay is that I am not alive.  Just existing.

October, I think when yuou start doing things you believe in, then you start to feel alive. I wonder if reporting child abuse in your family, obviously something you felt strongly about and did so at a great cost to yourself, has brought you an inch closer to your self, to your true feelings?

Hopalong

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2005, 12:19:35 PM »
Oct,
People have woken from comas after 20 years.
30 y/o white supremacists have become anti-racist Brother Theresas.
Emotional numbness is a symptom of something you constructed to protect yourself.
Maybe OWNING it, as something your deepest smartest self CREATED to protect yourself, would open a glimmer of hope. IOW, instead of seeing it as something that "happened" to you...you might try on talking to your inner self and thanking it. Thank god you made me numb. After all that trauma I NEEDED to be numb...

And then the dialogue could slowlly, daily, change to repeating, repeating, repeating to your inner self, I thank you so much for the wisdom of making me numb, and now I want to thank you for guiding me toward feeling again. I am so glad you are now guiding me back toward feeling.

I think if that inner dialogue went on, for as long as you are willing to consciously do it, something amazing might happen.

I would NEVER give up on you, October.

Love,
Hopalong
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

October

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2005, 02:46:55 PM »
Oct,
People have woken from comas after 20 years.
30 y/o white supremacists have become anti-racist Brother Theresas.
Emotional numbness is a symptom of something you constructed to protect yourself.
Maybe OWNING it, as something your deepest smartest self CREATED to protect yourself, would open a glimmer of hope. IOW, instead of seeing it as something that "happened" to you...you might try on talking to your inner self and thanking it. Thank god you made me numb. After all that trauma I NEEDED to be numb...


Good thinking.  I do remember thinking that somewhere along the line I chose to be like this, for a reason.   :D

Thanks for not giving up, Hoppy.  I won't either.   :?

Btw, in relation to the autism thing, I saw Stevie yesterday, my lovely friend.  I told him about this theory, and he went to find his DSM IV, to look up autistic diagnostic criteria.  We started with asbergers, and he read out symptoms, and one of them was dispraxia, and he asked me whether this applies to my mum.  I said no, she has very fine motor skills.

'In that case', he said, 'she is just evil.' 

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

(Doesn't mean there is nothing in it.  Just thought you would find this as funny as we did.   :lol:)

Plucky

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2005, 01:19:15 AM »
Quote
'In that case', he said, 'she is just evil.' 
Sounds like a diagnosis to me!  Evil Personality Disorder.
Plucky

nightsong

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2005, 03:41:32 AM »
hello October,

This is such an interesting topic, thank you for starting it.

What it brings up for me is two things. Firstly, how little is understood about what actually happens in the brain developmentally. My understanding, for what it's woth, is that narcississm and autistic spectrum disorders probably have different causes, though clearly the resulting behaviours are remarkably similar in some ways. I think autism is being linked cutrrently to high levels of testosterone in the womb, and to sensitivites and allergies. N indiiduals are more supposed to have been made that way by their own childhood experiences. But, who really knows? And who is to say that the same genetic predisposition doesn't underly both conditions?

The second thing is that I was moved by your description of your emotional numbness at this time. I remembered when I switched off my own emotions. I'd been hiding them for a long time, but when my grandfather died i made a conscious decision not to feel the pain, bcause I might cry in front of my mother and that wasn't safe. I was actually proud of the fact that I didn't feel anything any more.

For many years I didn't cry, and I'd never experienced anger because that was taboo for me - my mother was the angry one. Whatevr she said or did, i was meant to smile and just take it. I behaved like that for many years, towards everyone I've only recently started discovereing my anger, and it feels like a bottomless pit at the moment. It's quite scary.

It seems to me that if you are feeling resentment, then you ARE feeling something - anger. Is it safe to explore that? I don't mean to project my stuff onto you so please forgive me if this is irrelevant. But I truly believe that it is not possible to destroy the basic human emotions, even if they go into hiding for many years. I am sure we still all have the capacity to love and to feel joy, sadness, fear and anger. We just have to feel safe enough to allow ourselves to do it.


P as guest

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Re: Autistic Spectrum
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2005, 06:10:46 AM »
Rosencrantz gave me this link (thanks!). Very interesting. http://www.aspar.klattu.com.au/

Also tongue in cheek by one on the spectrum. http://isnt.autistics.org/dsn-npd.html Seems to suggest all introverts are on the autistic spectrum! Maybe we are.  :D Who knows.  8)

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