Need help with N Parent

[write]

I am lucky enough that I see my girl half the time.  We alternate weeks.  So every other week she has some stability and peace.  We talk quite a bit, but I don't want to bad mouth her mother. 

Inspite of the way she is treated, she loves her mother.

of course she does, and so should she, she's a kid.

Your stability is enough to offset any long-term damage, good idea not to bad-mouth mom.
Your daughter will learn all about her when she's older and more able to handle it.

The first person to get counselling should probably be you- deal with any of your own issues and get yourself in good emotional shape for supporting your daughter and dealing with her ultra-defensive mother.

http://www.notmykid.org/parentArticles/Bedwetting/default.asp
re the eneuresis, interesting to note that early toilet training is an issue- something we were discussing last week as a problem in n-families, and how often it results in accidents etc.

[mudpuppy]

Hi singledad,

Sorry if I missed this but where and when was your ex diagnosed with NPD?
How does someone diagnosed with a PD get a job as a counsellor? Shouldn't she be the counsellee?

What are your legal options with an official diagnosis in your pocket? It seems to me that you have a pretty strong case for gaining sole custody. If she is on record as having abused you and having a serious mental disorder seems like you would be in the driver's seat in court. And it doesn't sound like you would be setting your daughter up for abuse from mommy since she's already getting it.
Something to think about I would imagine. Not an easy decision, but i wonder if in the long run it would be better for your daughter. Have you talked to a lawyer about your options, especially with whatever documentation you have in hand?
Maybe its better for your daughter to stick witrh the status quo. But I wouldn't be afraid of your ex. The vast majority of Ns live out their lives on bluffs and wild, empty threats, eternally terrified somebody is going to call their bluff someday.

mud

[wally]

Hi Singledad,

Interesting article on bedwetting (ref. Writes post), as I have 5 children 3 under eight and I have always wondered about much of what the article talked about.  I think it is good that parents do not talk negatively to children about each other, most don't realize that when even the smallest negative comment is made from one parent to a child about another the child takes this on himself.  The child naturally will take it on because both parents are the child's identity, and when a parent speaks against a parent they are speaking against the child.  I know this as my Nmom would throw little comments to us about my dad, after the divorce.  The power of comments of a parent especially about the other parent is huge it can be a great thing or greatly detrimental. 
     mud seems to have a possible angle.  If not an option, then unfortunately your daughter gets the brunt of the entire situation.  If your ex is truly NPD, from what I understand she will be relentless in her ignorance, and illness.  I hope you can secure custody.  At any rate regardless of the outcome your daughter will remember your isolated relationship, and its possible that her mother will drive her away anyways, as did my mother with my sisters.  By the time your daughter is 13 (I think) she can choose her custodial parent.

Wally

[Brigid]

singledad,
It breaks my heart to hear of what your daughter is having to go through and you have to watch.  As a mother of two young adults who mean everything in the world to me, I'm not sure what I could have been capable of if I felt they were being abused.  Fortunately, my xnh was not the abusive type and that was never a part of our problems.

I hope you will heed with the others have said about, at the very least, getting yourself into counseling.  You need to break the hold this woman has over you, so you can fight for your daughter.  A good therapist will help you to gain strength and perspective and clear whatever demons she continues to haunt you with.  Once you are healthy and clear-headed, you will know the right thing to do and you will be able to rally the resources to help you reach your goal of ideally getting full custody.  I would also not wait another day to talk to attorney (there is no way your ex would know you are doing this unless she is having you followed) and to get the advice you need to start laying the groundwork.

I agree that your daughter would be well served to also be in counseling and that will probably have to happen at some point, but maybe better after you are strong enough to deal with her mother in a calm and rational manner (even though your ex won't).  I find it so disturbing that this woman is working with impressionable teens in a counseling capacity, but those n's can certainly be charming when they need to be and hide their bad behaviors from outsiders.  However, I do wonder the same as mudpuppy about her diagnosis--was it official or just your assumption based on behaviors?

Please start seeking some professional help and advice so you can help your daughter.  I lived with a mentally abusive, neglectful n father and I know the damage it did to me.  I would do anything to save a child from that.

Blessings,

Brigid

[singledad]

The ex was diagnosed during our divorce.  She insisted that we go through a custody evaluation, because she was certain that the psychiatrist would deem me unfit.  We both went through a series of interviews, tests and observations, and he disgnosed her then.  It was a very high conflict divorce, and I even showed him evidence threats against my life and threats of violence against daughter.  My daughter, who was 4 at the time, told me one afternoon as I was driving her to her mother's "Daddy, when I am dead will you get a big ladder and come up to heaven to get me.  Mommy says I am going to be dead soon, and I will miss you."  Imagine my horror.  I told this to the psychiatrist who was evaluating us, and he did nothing.  Never even mentioned it to me again.

He was supposed to determine which of us was the more fit parent for custody.  I figured that when the report came out, with all the evidence that I had, my case would be locked up.  When his report came out, (the morning that we were going to court for our last negotiations before having to go to trial) he made no decision.  He just said that we should split the time and wouldn't make a custody determination.  It was very wishy washy.  I found out later that he is notorious for saying a lot without ever really making any decisions.  It was from this report that I found out about the NPD diagnosis.  I don't know if this is considered an official diagnosis.  She wasn't tested specifically for it, but it is coming from a psychiatric doctor.

We negotiatied all day and came up with a fairly decent deal.  My lawyer advised me to take the deal because I judge was well known for siding with the mother.  I spoke with some one who used to be a CPS investigator just recently, and he said that it is likely he would have ruled in her favor even with the NPD.

I absolutely agree that she should not be a counselor, but all you have to do is go to school for it and apply for certification.  There are no tests for your own mental health.  Plus she is very charismatic and charming.  She is very good at manipulation and controlling conversations.

I try to be very careful about what I say about her mother.  Daughter has enough problems.  She doesn't need more stress from me.  I work very hard trying to preserve their relationship.  Maybe that makes me an enabler, but it breaks my heart when a little girl tells me "sometimes I think mommy doesn't really love me".  I really have thought about seeking sole custody a lot.  I want to protect and help her, but I don't want to hurt her by keeping her from being with her mother.  Also money is very tight right now.  I am out of work and my back up savings are nearly gone.  I have been collecting unemployment, which runs out in about 2 months, and with the amount I get (not enough to really live on - as I sit here typing in the cold), I make to much to qualify for legal aid or assistance.  So I either need a high paying full time job or wait for the unemployment to run out.

I really want to get into counselling for myself.  I need to get myself out from under her control.  But with no job or insurance, I just can't afford it.  Once things settle down after Christmas, I'm going to try to make some calls to see what financial help is out there.

I also appreciate the bed wetting article.  I have done a ton of research on it, and understand the problem.  But mom won't listen to any of that.  She has decided that daughter is doing it on purpose and there is no changing her mind once it is set.

So much has been going on for so long that it is hard to dig it up and take a look at it again.  I want to really thank everyone for listening and trying to help.  It really has been wonderful for me the past few days.

[mudpuppy]

Hi singledad,

Sorry to hear about your work situation. Kind of makes doing anything problematical right now, doesn't it?

So that leaves you with the problem of making the best of a bad situation, for now anyway. Sometimes the best we can do is realize we don't have any good choices, but we can always make the best of what we do have.
I am convinced that a good loving parent intent on minimizing the impact of a nutty one can raise a pefectly healthy and well adjusted child. Heck, there are many people at this site who have done exactly that. I don't imagine its easy but the reward of a healthy happy daughter is surely worth it.
Just stay strong for her.

mud

[Sela]

Hi Singledad and welcome:

Been reading your thread and I'm so sorry for all you are going through because of this woman's behaviour toward your child (and for what she's put you, personally through too).  She sounds like a real prize!! (NOT! ).

Just wondering if......

maybe it would be a good idea to take your daughter to counselling....telling your exwife it's to help with the bed wetting??    (I'd steer toward a female counsellor.  Maybe having an objective adult woman to talk with would be a help to your daugher??  At the very least.......maybe another witness to what your child is enduring/suffering?? (with possible usefulness in court proceedings...at some later date maybe??  and potentially helping her with her bed-wetting to boot!!).

Also.......hope this won't offend you ....not my intention......

maybe it would be best for you to get yourself a job?  Not nice to think of you losing the 1/2 time custody you already have eh? (and not having income to support 1/2 time visiting could be an issue, if your exwife decides to start shooting daggars wouldn't it???).  I don't know.  I'm just worried that something like that could happen and I think it would be a good idea to get out there and find something...to remove that possibility from her agenda (prevent it from becoming part of her agenda maybe?).

I don't have much respect for that spineless psychiatrist.  If he had any guts whatsoever he would have brought info to the court re this disorder and advocated for your child's safety and welfare.  Just venting a little ( ).

Don't forget to put some peaceful, fun experiences in your girl's life on a regular basis.  Doing fun stuff...playing games, going on outings, doing crafts, reading funny books from the library, etc are things that will help her to relax and find enjoyment when she's with you.    This will help cement the bond she has with you and give her something to look forward to.  We all need that eh?  Especially when dealing with psychoabusers like your ex.  Any fun/relaxation/comfort.....is a relief well needed, I think.

I hope things get better for both of you.  Good for you for coming here for support!  I hope some of this helps.

Sela

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi Singledad

I was reading up on NPD and I came across this... all about helping children understand and thought it may be some help for you.

http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/helpingchildrenunderstand.msnw

Take care

H&H xx

[write]

there is no changing her mind once it is set.

never say never Singledad!
I was with my ex n-h for over 20 years before something changed his...

Fortunately she only vents when she is with me.  I hate to think what her mom would do if she had a melt down.

something isn't right, a melt-down = loss of control?
you are saying your daughter has extraordinary self-control and has never temper-tantrumed before her mother?
but she is fully able to articulate her feelings ( in a controlled way or not ) with you?

I am wondering if between the two of you she has become a 'battle' and that is what is so confusing to her?

You have half custody each and yet that is not enough?
You are each accusing the other of serious child abuse, seemingly when investigated without merit.

And though lack of funds is a problem I would rather you will go out and earn extra money and pay for your counselling...after all I presume that is what you'd need to do to pay for daughter's counselling which you think would be beneficial?

I am very much against children being sent for counselling when their parents have not been evaluated....children deserve a childhood without intrusive intervention which will completely alter their lives.

It is down to us as adults and their protectors to undergo our own counselling and parenting training so we can best enable their happiness.

[singledad]

I think I wasn't clear enough in my posts earlier.  First off, I do work some.  I'm not a deadbeat sitting around all the time.  I work for my parents' company as a children's entertainer.  This is the slow season.  With the exception of Santa jobs, there is not much work in the winter.  Even the company as a whole is off a couple thousand from last year.  In the summer I am quite busy and able to save enough to get by during the lean times.  In the past I have also worked teaching, but several people were laid off at the end of this past year, myself included.  I am still looking for a teaching position, but it is a rough market in my state.  There are a lot of teachers looking for work.  I am also planning on starting school part time to get my school librarian certification, which will open up a lot more job opportunities.

As far as temper tantrums go, I know she has had them in front of mom, but according to mom she hasn't in over a year.  I have been seeing them more frequently lately and it is usually within a day or two of being at moms or on the way to moms.  So I am just assuming that she doesn't in front of mom.    "extraordinary self control"  "able to articulate her feelings"  Far from it.  These melt downs are usually uncontrollable yelling and crying.

I'm not a psychologist, so I don't know the exact reasons why she does it, but I think she feels she needs to stuff her feelings. And then sometimes it all comes out. This is a gut feeling based on my experiences and observations.
1. While married I was never really allowed to show negative feelings about the N.  Whenever I tried to talk about something that was upsetting me, it was either turned around until I was being cut down for something or I was getting the silent treatment.  I learned not to talk about what I was feeling.  I learned to keep it inside and cry or vent in private. I think she is learning the same.
2. I've seen her mother cut her down when she does something wrong or perceived wrong.  Just this week I met with mom and daughter to discuss something.  She started yelling at her because she wasn't wearing her mittens.  Daughter cringed like she had been hit and then looked at me with this crushed look in her eyes.  I've seen other examples as well.
3. Daughter doesn't cry unless she is hurt or in a melt down.  I see disappointment, fear, frustration, happiness, love, but she never cries.  Again I think back to my experiences when I learned not to cry in front of the N.

I try to keep the battle away from daughter.  I know I am not a saint and not perfect, but I am very careful to never put down mom.  I always stress that mommy loves her and that I know she loves mommy.  I want them to have a good relationship.  Custody half the time is okay with me.  I don't want sole custody.  But if that were necessary to protect her I wouldn't say no or turn my back on her.

I hope this doesn't sound too defensive.  I don't mean it to be.

H&H Thanks for the web site.  I am going to look into that.

Sela I wasn't offended at all. And we do have a lot of fun experiences.  After all Daddy is a clown, literally.  There is always something fun going on.

[Plucky]

Hi Singledad,
You're in a tough spot. I am not sure how much custody is based on finances rather than available time to spend with the child.  Maybe others can comment.  If you had custody, wouldn't your wife have to pay child support?   And your work seems to be more flexible to allow you to be there for your daughter.

Can anyone comment whether custody is impacted by the finances of the custodial parent?  I thought both parents had responsibility.
Plucky

[Brigid]

Plucky,

Can anyone comment whether custody is impacted by the finances of the custodial parent?  I thought both parents had responsibility.

My x and I have joint custody, but I have primary placement.  My daughter spends one evening a week with her dad and spends the night every other Saturday.  My ex is the only one employed as I quit working over 20 years ago to be a full-time mom.  He pays me what in our state is called "family maintenance."  If someone pays child support, that support ends at age 18 unless otherwise stated in the divorce decree.  Because of the way our agreement is worded, my children's ages do not impact my monthly support.

Custody and placement are kind of two different things.  In our case, because our children were older, it is really up to them how much time they spend with either parent.  When dealing with younger children, placement can be more impacted by the ability to be home with them rather than the finances involved.  If parents have shared custody, but one parent has more placement, the parent with less placement will need to compensate the other parent for the greater amount of time spent with the child and the financial needs that accompany that (assuming both parents are employed).  Sometimes a judge will require a parent to go back to work to help provide support if they are not currently employed.  If the two parents can agree about placement then the courts just agree to it. If it is contested, then the judge has to make the decision based on evidence presented and the children's desires if they are old enough to have their preferences considered.

Of course, all of these things can vary based on the state involved.  If there are any questions, an attorney should be consulted for the correct procedure in that area.  Based on what I have read of Singledad's situation, if they each have the child half the time and the ex-wife is making more money, in my state, she would have to pay him some child support.

I hope that helps.

Brigid

[singledad]

My state is basically the same way.  There is a big convoluted formula that is used to calculate support.  Supposedly money is not supposed to be a factor in deciding custody.  It is supposed to be about the child's best interests.  But from experience that arguement usually is worked to the mother's favor.  Sorry ladies, but most judges, even the males, side with the mothers.  Things are changing slowly as the older judges retire, but there is still the bias that children need their mothers more.  Mothers without jobs are seen as victims.  When they have to go back to work away from their children, they are called working mothers.  Fathers without jobs are seen as lazy.  When a father has to go back to work away from their children, they are called fathers. 

<< stepping down from soap box>> Sorry, that is a sensitive area with me, because we have 50/50, she makes over two times what I make, and I still pay support.

[tejaspear]

singledad,

I have been restraining myself from saying this, not wanting to cause you alarm, but it has been haunting me ever since I first read your post about your daughter's "secret." I feel I owe it to her, in case I am right, to share with you my own secret when I was young.

When I was about 9 years old my bachelor father dated a woman with a son about a year or two older than me. One day the adults left us home (at their house) alone. Some of his friends came over -- maybe five or seven -- and I entertained myself alone. Then the boys called me into the garage and ordered me to "strip." I was horrified and petrified and just stood there paralyzed, not moving, no matter what they said, and finally I somehow walked away from that without having stripped. But I was terrified and didn't want to EVER have to go to their house again.

I was afraid to tell my father what really happened -- not because he wouldn't believe me, but because I felt so ASHAMED at what they tried to make me do. I just could NOT bring myself to say what really happened. So instead, I told my father I hated that boy and didn't want to go there anymore. When he interrogated me about it, I made up a story that I knew if it got back to that boy he wouldn't be too mad because it wasn't as bad as the truth. That boy was obese, so I told my father, "He tried to sit on me." That was a lie. He never even did that. I just had to make something up that I wasn't afraid to say.

I am concerned that your daughter has much more reason to hate her mother than she has divulged to you, and just cannot bring herself to tell you. But your daughter is wanting the same thing I wanted -- to never have to see that boy anymore -- and the same thing I felt -- that I didn't like him (can't remember if I used the word hate).

Again, I apologize if I am alarming you, but the way I see it you are the only healthy nurturing adult your daughter has to protect her, and I would be remiss not to voice my fear that your ex-wife may be abusing her sexually (or in some way just as badly). I have been reading a lot about N's lately and sexual abuse to their own children is not all that uncommon.  ;(  ;(  ;(

I hope I am wrong. I hope so very much!!!!!! I love children so much, and I am just so worried about your daughter that I just had to mention this. The very best prayers and wishes for you and your daughter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TP

[mum]

Singledad>
Just wanted you to know, I'm sending love and light.