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Re: A Who in Grinchville? Lost in lostville is where I am.

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Acappella:
Hi Portia,

--- Quote ---I'm sorry, but...
--- End quote ---


no apologies needed - this is a place to speak up and out and I am glad you do.   :D  

I TOO most certainly have reservations and I also like what I read on the We are s.a.v.e.d. site (only read the first page i think) - The need for greater openess regarding vulnerability and the fear of it when it is perceived as being exceptional, for example.  However, a cute baby doesn't mean I am voting for the politician holding her at a photo shoot.  Doesn't mean the politician is being manipulative either nor does it mean they are not.  What the baby represents is still appealing to me - no politician can change that.

I feel hypnotized when i listen to good music or see beautiful art or smell good food or......   I would like to hear what you feel the hypnotic quality is and how it is like morphine, (enjoyable in the short term but damaging with prolonged intake?).

All sorts of organizations solicit funds AND I agree that I am not comfortable investing when someone is hiding and then stating it is for my own good - paternalistic in an old fashion archaic way. Perhaps the person who started the site isn't capable of admitting their own vulnerability, i.e. not wanting to be focused on?  Feeling they will be judged and/or overwhelmed?  As far as the state
--- Quote ---reason
--- End quote ---
, they could just deflect focus back to the message which is what I feel the best leaders do.

I am interested in what you feel about the message content as well as the messengers and their methods.  The message don't cost a thing!

Gabriel,  :?: Is anyone else acknowledging their true identity there at we are S.a.v.e.d.?

Gabriel, I appreciate the results of the time and energy you are investing to make acknowledged vulnerability a more visible issue.  Thank you.

Gabriel,
As far a cynicism is concerned I believe paternalism in the old fashion sense of "I cannot tell you for your own good." is a sort of lack of faith in humanity too.  Sure we are all children even when we are "adults" AND the goal is to make mistakes OPENLY with others there to support us not to be protected from the opportunity to learn.  


--- Quote ---You appear to be a little too invested in your cynicism to believe anything that I tell you, Portia,
--- End quote ---
 Got to say Gabriel that I like much of what you say AND that statement seems very unfair to me - is  certainly is not sensitive to nor respectful of the vulnerability beneath the cynicism.  Nor does
--- Quote ---Your cynicism is understandable, but
--- End quote ---

but nothing.  But = however= never the less.


--- Quote ---but if our goal was simply personal enrichment, why would we choose to create such an elaborate ruse when there are much simpler ways to rip people off through the internet that are much more appealing to the average person?
--- End quote ---

#1 Operative word is IF..you assume others know your goal is as you state it and that we all understand your definition of personal enrichment.
#2  Gabriel, one doesn't have to look far to see that people hurt one another IN THE NAME OF a "greater" "good" & "enrichment" all the time...the civil war, slavery and nazism all come to mind too quickly.  No pun intended about the enrichment I presume?   :D  :shock: We cannot pretend to know exactly why someone picks elaborate ruses but they do - ruses keep us in the dark, that is part of the intent!.  Personally, all ruses by their very nature seem elaborate to me.  

I so like what I have read on the site so far and plan to focus on that contant as much as possible.  Meanwhile my landlord is wanting some personal "enrichment"  :D as am I (lunch is no ruse) so I gotta go.

(personally, i am ok with someone spelling my name wrong - i value the quality of response and communication in general and that is where my focus is therefore.  did i mention i am a very bad speller?   :shock: )Vulnerable for sure, Ahcappelllllla.   :D

P.S. Gabriel, telling us more about your own vulnerability and what the group is aiming for practically in terms of realizing the ideal would go a lot further than only descriptions of theory/human nature and defensiveness.  I hope to hear more about the vision and the actualization of it.  that is the sort of thing that inspires me to act.

Gabriel:
Thanks for responding, Acappella.  

I don’t have a lot of time right now, but I did want to respond to a couple of the excellent points you made yesterday.  


--- Quote ---Got to say Gabriel that I like much of what you say AND that statement seems very unfair to me - is certainly is not sensitive to nor respectful of the vulnerability beneath the cynicism.
--- End quote ---


I can definitely see your point here.  Although I was careful to allow for the possibility that Portia might not be “invested in her cynicism”, it’s true that I assumed she probably was.  There are exceptions, but it is generally true that once a person has voiced an opinion/appraisal publicly, he has invested his identity in it to such an extent that he becomes predisposed to defend it at all costs.  I saw the possibility that Portia’s 'likely investment’ might make her inclined to see me as her “enemy” for a lengthy period of time.

But you were quite right and perceptive, Acappella, to point out the vulnerability that lies beneath the cynicism that people feel.  It would have been much better if I had pointed out that I do not use the word “cynical” as a pejorative term.  People have become cynical about the motives and hidden intentions of others for very good reasons.  As you wisely pointed out, people are quite capable of being drawn into “good” causes that end up creating many innocent victims.  It is difficult for people to determine whom they can trust without having more time to evaluate things.

One very important and essential truth in this life (that few newlyweds seem to understand) is the fact that trust is not something one is entitled to simply because one has requested it or demanded it from another.  A spouse may believe he has a right to his wife’s eternal trust simply because he once declared to her that he is worthy of it.  But trust is something that can only be earned slowly over time, by repeatedly demonstrating that you are trustworthy.  (Yes, people will “offer” their trust to a person whom they would really like to be able to trust, but this is not the same thing as “feeling your trust” in another.)  Our need for reassurance is never-ending and reasonable.

(This is true because of the fundamental uncertainty human beings have to struggle with in this life.  We are not born with an inherent understanding of what is true.  It’s something we have to figure out.  It may be true that most of the “facts” we embrace are ultimately only guesses, but there is nothing wrong with making guesses and assuming that they are true, so long as our experience continues to validate their accuracy.  Our confidence in our guesses grows if they “hold up over time.”)

When human beings are first exposed to something new and unfamiliar, they tend not to trust their own judgments about what they are seeing.  And so they typically look over their shoulders to see what everyone else thinks.  If “most people” seem to be embracing a certain guess about the New Thing, they will feel more confident embracing the same guess.  It is the reason why most people are “natural majoritarians.”  Some individuals, however, have more confidence in their evaluations of a New Thing because they possess the kind of related knowledge one needs to be able to make sound judgments.

So yes, it's going to take some time for people to become familiar with the WE ARE S.A.V.E.D. message and recognize that it is not some kind of exploitative scam.  Sometimes the only thing you can do, if others are voicing suspicions about you and you know that you are innocent, is to steadfastly protest your innocence.  If you are true to your word, then most people will begin to see it after a while...

Thanks again, Acappella.  Your openness and perspicacity are very special gifts indeed…

Gabriel
communications.officer@wearesaved.org

P.S. There is little doubt that you are correct about the web site author’s vulnerability.  I’m quite sure that he fears the possibility of being overwhelmed by events, but I think his expressed concern about becoming an inseparable part of the Message is also quite legitimate when you think about it.

Gabriel:
Hi again, Portia...

I hope that you were not deeply offended when I described you as [likely] cynical.  As I stated in my response to Acappella, I don't really think that being cynical is a bad thing.

I did want to ask you a question related to the WE ARE S.A.V.E.D. web site.  

Do you think it would be a good thing if "everyone" began to declare their emotional vulnerability to each other?

If not, why not?

Thanks...

"Gabe" :wink:
communications.officer@wearesaved.org

CC:
Hi Portia,

Just wanted to say although I did not respond as cynically as you did, I am with you in feeling as if the SAVED thing is possibly not sincere.  The fact that Gabriel has never visited here before (under this name anyway) and I have been lurking here for many months and have never heard of this thing, and then all of a sudden here he is to "save the day" leads me to believe that Accapella may be being procilitized (sp?) to in her vulnerability and is being subjected to a veiled form of solicitation.

It is not fair of me to cast any aspersions toward the content of the website as I have not visited.. nor am I interested.  but just from the lengths I have seen this person go to in this one thread it makes one think he is now digging himself out of a hole to prevent further skepticism - and to convince us of its intent.  

Gabriel, if you are so interested in this subject, why have you not shown yourself previously to share your OWN experiences?  Why are you singling out just person to recruite them elsewhere?  If your intent is to contribute to this board and its content, why are you not addressing the pertinent subject directly - voicelessness as it relates to narcissism?

Accapella I am glad you have your eyes wide open and can discern a message from its ulterior motives.  I just decided to chime in with Portia's reservations since she used her voice to say what I was already thinking - and so that this new visitor knows that we are not all buying it.

Discounted Girl:
Maybe Gabriel is just here to blow his horn -- I personally prefer to hear posters play their violins, but that's just me.  :lol:

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