Re: A Who in Grinchville? Lost in lostville is where I am.

[Gabriel]

Hi, Acapella.  I was sorry to read about the suffering you’ve endured and wanted to let you know that there is good reason for hope.  As a representative of www.wearesaved.org, I thought I’d offer a response that directly answers some of your most fundamental questions.  Is there a better place? Is anyone right?  What is a better relationship?  The answer to these questions, Acapella, is yes.  WE who ARE S.A.V.E.D. (Strongly Advocating Vulnerability Every Day) want to let everyone know that a world of vastly improved relationships will unfold if people begin to fully embrace the wisdom of Emotional Honesty.

When we use the term Emotional Honesty, we aren’t talking about the mere willingness to talk about what you are feeling with others.  True Emotional Honesty requires that we admit the truth about the great depth of our need for approval.  It means admitting that you can be easily hurt by any hint of criticism.  It means admitting that you are ultimately at the mercy of the opinions and comments of others.  It’s the kind of honesty about personal vulnerability that any sane individual would find extremely frightening unless she knew that the exact same thing is true about everyone else.

At our web site, we focus primarily on the impact that a universal commitment to Emotional Honesty would have on social relations, but the impact it has on intimate relationships is probably the bigger story.  For it is only within intimate relationships that human beings are able to achieve an ideal satisfaction of a collection of very important physical and emotional needs.  Indeed, when intimate partners are able to keep themselves constantly focused on their shared vulnerability and pure dependence on each other, it becomes possible for them to experience a level of Relationship Ecstasy that most people today can only dream about.  Yes, Acapella, there is a better place where we can be if we are willing to face up to the truth about what is inside of us.

The “better relationship” that is possible for us to experience is ultimately dependent on our willingness to make ourselves utterly dependent—emotionally—on our intimate partners.  That is a prospect that many people who are married fear greatly.  They feel that the less dependent they are on others, the better off they will be.  They are afraid of intimacy because they fear the emotional pain they know they would feel if their intimate partners were ever to leave them.

People who feel this way SHOULD NEVER GET MARRIED.  We can’t have it both ways.  If we want to enjoy the wonderful fruits of intimacy, we have to be willing to expose ourselves to the risk of great pain.  You cannot experience the joy it bestows otherwise.  If protecting yourself from that Ultimate Pain is more important to you, then you should never allow anyone to think that you are committed to them, for you will simply be using them in an ultimate act of victim-generating selfishness.

Why do intimate relationships fail so often to fulfill their promise?  In most cases, the cause can be traced to the collection of “values” that people typically embrace when they are in social environments.  In the typical social environment, many people are able to reach a certain comfort zone of interaction with others that leaves them feeling mostly unthreatened.  What these people don’t realize is that their feelings of security are heavily dependent upon their ability to keep the attention of others focused away from their own personal vulnerabilities.  We are happy to discuss almost any topic, as long as the topic isn’t our own emotional vulnerability.  We especially enjoy talking about other people’s imperfections because attention is then distracted away from our own.

When men and women enter into intimate relationships with each other, the comfort zone they enjoyed in the social environment in which they met begins to quickly melt away.  When less of their attention is focused on others and more of it is focused on each other, it becomes more and more difficult for them to hide their imperfections from each other.  Unkind commentary is certainly not appreciated, but it’s not just expressed criticism that bothers us.  A woman could be completely innocent of even thinking some critical judgment of her husband, but if he fears she might be thinking it, he may very well launch a counterattack to defend himself from the criticism he expects, thus starting a cycle of retaliation.

Intimate relationships are a special challenge for most people because the truth about human emotional needs becomes laid bare.  As intimate partners begin to defend themselves from the criticism they fear by “criticizing back”, pain is inflicted and the anger instinct can become quite easily aroused.  Nothing hurts us more than being the target of another human being’s anger.  If couples rely on their anger instincts to defend themselves, their intimate relationships are guaranteed to fail, as they will soon become bitter enemies.

The strategies that people typically employ in the social environment do not work in intimate relationships, but destroy them instead.  If WE who ARE S.A.V.E.D. are able to accomplish our goals, the values of the social environment will begin to change, eventually becoming identical with the natural values of intimacy.  People will no longer be encouraged by the social environment to behave in ways that end up destroying their intimate relationships.

Better relationships, Acapella, are created when two people are able to intentionally present an Image of Vulnerability to each other at all times instead of an Image of Threat.  When we are able to perceive only each other’s vulnerability, we will no longer perceive a need to defend ourselves and are able to listen to each other as caring friends, instead of as wounded enemies.  CHANGING THOSE PERCEPTIONS IS EVERYTHING.

Obviously, men are going to find the idea of Emotional Honesty more difficult to warm up to than women.  Their socialization encourages them to try to protect themselves from emotional pain by steadfastly denying that they have any emotional needs that might make it logical for them to seek out a committed love relationship.  What they need to learn is that they’ve been fearing the wrong thing.  What they really ought to be fearing are the efforts of other men to perpetuate the myth that some people—like them—are immune to the pain of rejection.  With a bit of courage, they can begin to confront those other men who are making it tough on everyone else with their refusal to admit the truth about themselves.

WE who ARE S.A.V.E.D. look forward to a New Day when the world finally becomes Safe for Emotional Vulnerability...


Gabriel

communications.officer@wearesaved.org

[Acappella]

Yikes Gabriel,

thank you for responding.
sounds achingly excellent oh, yeah and did i mention scares the heck outta me!? Where be that vulnerability Emoticon?

Things come to my mind like..."you first", "turtle without a shell", "we'll be like corralled sheep with wolves circling - easily located, identified and consumed". And then I remember I am not a sheep, nor a turtle & consider those analogies are my fear talking - the training in which I learned vulnerability = weakness. And I also wonder, "Am i naive to ignore that training?" Perhaps the We are S.A.V.E.D. idea/feeling is not to ignore that training but just to better understand the motive and vulnerability behind it? As if once we admit our vulnerability, face that fear, then the fear/anticipation is lessened and thereby weakening the weapon and shield that fear becomes & the perceived need for a weapon at all?

In addition to my apprehension, I very much like the We are S.A.V.E.D content.

the following two quotes describe some of my response to the Emotional Honesty proposal better than i can for now....

What happens when the light first pierces the dark dampness in which we have waited?
We are slapped and cut loose.
And, if we are lucky there is someone there to catch us
and to persuade us we are safe.
DM

The following quote is dialogue between a man and a woman - in a movie - duh, where else would such eloquent sincerity and emotional honesty (if I get your meaning right?) take place?

Madeline: I feel you know what it is like to be without happiness but do you know what it is like to be afraid of it?
To see the world as so conniving you cannot take pleasure in the appearance of something good because you suspect it is only a painted drop behind which other troubles lie?
That has been my life - every good thing has been a trick.
Until you.
Yet I am afraid to take your hand.
What if you cannot or will not save me?
I can bare to maltreated by the greedy or the weak ..but to be let down by an angel?

Nicholas: I am not an angel.
I live as far from that lofty perch as any man: Temper low, my patience ......
Perhaps I should not list all my faults in case I am too persuasive.
You are the one that is so admirably able and strong.

Madeline: I am tired of being strong.

Nicholas: As am I. Weakness is tiring but strength is exhausting.
You see, I cannot save you for I need saving too

Madeline: What are you proposing?

Nicholas: Only this - that we save ourselves together.
D.M.

Acappella

[Gabriel]

"...the training in which I learned vulnerability = weakness. And I also wonder, "Am i naive to ignore that training?" Perhaps the We are S.A.V.E.D. idea/feeling is not to ignore that training but just to better understand the motive and vulnerability behind it? As if once we admit our vulnerability, face that fear, then the fear/anticipation is lessened and thereby weakening the weapon and shield that fear becomes & the perceived need for a weapon at all?"

You are exactly right, Acappella.  The Emotional Honesty approach that we advocate does not encourage people to ignore their fears, but to confront them, instead.  Trying to wish away your need for approval is a waste of time.  If you were stranded on an island and were beginning to get very hungry, it wouldn’t make much sense for you to deal with the pain of hunger by trying to wish away your need for food, but that’s exactly what people—especially men—have been doing for centuries in response to the emotional pain they’ve experienced.  The only rational way to respond to any fear is to simply invest yourself in an effort to take care of the problem that the fear is alerting you to.

The Fear Instinct is a biological “program” that is triggered automatically by certain kinds of experiences / perceptions.  It awakens whenever we experience pain but it can also be triggered by sensory events like disorientation or very loud, unexpected noises.  When children first experience thunder they are understandably terrified because their brains do not understand the true nature of threat that the child might be facing.  The Fear Instinct needs “reassurance” in order for it to go away.  In time—with more experience and some reassuring words of explanation by parents and others—the child “learns” that it is not the thunder that poses any threat, but only the lightening, and that the lightening is only a threat when one is not protected by adequate shelter.  When repeated experience validates the explanations provided, the Fear Instinct dissipates.

The result is that the child becomes less and less afraid over time, and might even develop a confidence in his safety whenever a storm approaches.  Similarly, when we’ve come to see the behavior of others [and ourselves] through the lens of Emotional Honesty, we learn that there is really no reason for us to fear the fact that we are emotionally vulnerable; but only the efforts that other people make to hide theirs from us.  Vulnerability is scary if is perceived to be exceptional; it is reassuring if we see that it is universal.  In both cases, acquired knowledge makes fear go away.  We learn when it makes sense for us to fear our vulnerability (thunder) and when it doesn’t.  Our fears thus become more specific and context-appropriate.  We retain the appropriate fears that actually protect us from danger and lose the irrational ones that will disappear when logic begins to provide reassurance.

So yes, Acapella, if we confront our fear of emotional vulnerability we will be delivered from it and will discover that we can be quite courageous about our “weakness” in a way that no one can challenge….

Gabriel
communications.officer@wearesaved.org
www.wearesaved.org

[Portia]

Post 20

[Anonymous]

Hi Portia!

(I hope I spelled your name correctly )

It saddens me that you were not able to see the sincerity of our efforts when you visited our web site.  Could it be that you did not actually read through the explanations we provide?

In your reference to God and Pay Pal you seem to be suggesting that we are trying to insinuate that we are speaking for God.  Would that be correct?  If that is your fear, then I can assure you that we are making no such claim.  We do not deny, however, that we believe that the message of Emotional Honesty is one that God wants all people to hear and ultimately benefit from.

I must confess that I do not understand your use of the word “hypnotised.”  Perhaps you could elaborate on that point a bit?

You seem to be especially suspicious, Portia, of the fact that we are soliciting contributions.  If you try reading through the web site, you’ll find that we make it quite clear why we are accepting contributions.  We have ambitious plans to improve the lives of the victims of the world and it is going to take money to do that.  We ask that people give us the tools to make some wonderful thing happen.

Your cynicism is understandable, but if our goal was simply personal enrichment, why would we choose to create such an elaborate ruse when there are much simpler ways to rip people off through the internet that are much more appealing to the average person?

Because we launched the www.wearesaved.org website only a couple of weeks ago, we have not yet received enough revenue to even bother setting up the Finances page that we plan eventually to include on the web site.  You appear to be a little too invested in your cynicism to believe anything that I tell you, Portia, but I will nevertheless inform you that we intend to make all of our financial data publicly available on our website for any and all to see.

The one thing we do plan to keep hidden from the public eye is the identity of the individual who has authored most of the content of the web site.  He says the Message is what is important, not the messenger.  Some of us have questioned whether or not this is a good idea, but we have all agreed to honor his request.

I’m so sorry that you can’t see who we really are, Portia.  

Perhaps later…

Gabriel
communications.officer@wearesaved.org

[Acappella]

Hi Portia,

I'm sorry, but...

no apologies needed - this is a place to speak up and out and I am glad you do.    

I TOO most certainly have reservations and I also like what I read on the We are s.a.v.e.d. site (only read the first page i think) - The need for greater openess regarding vulnerability and the fear of it when it is perceived as being exceptional, for example.  However, a cute baby doesn't mean I am voting for the politician holding her at a photo shoot.  Doesn't mean the politician is being manipulative either nor does it mean they are not.  What the baby represents is still appealing to me - no politician can change that.

I feel hypnotized when i listen to good music or see beautiful art or smell good food or......   I would like to hear what you feel the hypnotic quality is and how it is like morphine, (enjoyable in the short term but damaging with prolonged intake?).

All sorts of organizations solicit funds AND I agree that I am not comfortable investing when someone is hiding and then stating it is for my own good - paternalistic in an old fashion archaic way. Perhaps the person who started the site isn't capable of admitting their own vulnerability, i.e. not wanting to be focused on?  Feeling they will be judged and/or overwhelmed?  As far as the state

reason

, they could just deflect focus back to the message which is what I feel the best leaders do.

I am interested in what you feel about the message content as well as the messengers and their methods.  The message don't cost a thing!

Gabriel,   Is anyone else acknowledging their true identity there at we are S.a.v.e.d.?

Gabriel, I appreciate the results of the time and energy you are investing to make acknowledged vulnerability a more visible issue.  Thank you.

Gabriel,
As far a cynicism is concerned I believe paternalism in the old fashion sense of "I cannot tell you for your own good." is a sort of lack of faith in humanity too.  Sure we are all children even when we are "adults" AND the goal is to make mistakes OPENLY with others there to support us not to be protected from the opportunity to learn.  

You appear to be a little too invested in your cynicism to believe anything that I tell you, Portia,

 Got to say Gabriel that I like much of what you say AND that statement seems very unfair to me - is  certainly is not sensitive to nor respectful of the vulnerability beneath the cynicism.  Nor does

Your cynicism is understandable, but

but nothing.  But = however= never the less.

but if our goal was simply personal enrichment, why would we choose to create such an elaborate ruse when there are much simpler ways to rip people off through the internet that are much more appealing to the average person?

#1 Operative word is IF..you assume others know your goal is as you state it and that we all understand your definition of personal enrichment.
#2  Gabriel, one doesn't have to look far to see that people hurt one another IN THE NAME OF a "greater" "good" & "enrichment" all the time...the civil war, slavery and nazism all come to mind too quickly.  No pun intended about the enrichment I presume?     We cannot pretend to know exactly why someone picks elaborate ruses but they do - ruses keep us in the dark, that is part of the intent!.  Personally, all ruses by their very nature seem elaborate to me.  

I so like what I have read on the site so far and plan to focus on that contant as much as possible.  Meanwhile my landlord is wanting some personal "enrichment"   as am I (lunch is no ruse) so I gotta go.

(personally, i am ok with someone spelling my name wrong - i value the quality of response and communication in general and that is where my focus is therefore.  did i mention i am a very bad speller?   )Vulnerable for sure, Ahcappelllllla.  

P.S. Gabriel, telling us more about your own vulnerability and what the group is aiming for practically in terms of realizing the ideal would go a lot further than only descriptions of theory/human nature and defensiveness.  I hope to hear more about the vision and the actualization of it.  that is the sort of thing that inspires me to act.

[Gabriel]

Thanks for responding, Acappella.  

I don’t have a lot of time right now, but I did want to respond to a couple of the excellent points you made yesterday.  

Got to say Gabriel that I like much of what you say AND that statement seems very unfair to me - is certainly is not sensitive to nor respectful of the vulnerability beneath the cynicism.

I can definitely see your point here.  Although I was careful to allow for the possibility that Portia might not be “invested in her cynicism”, it’s true that I assumed she probably was.  There are exceptions, but it is generally true that once a person has voiced an opinion/appraisal publicly, he has invested his identity in it to such an extent that he becomes predisposed to defend it at all costs.  I saw the possibility that Portia’s 'likely investment’ might make her inclined to see me as her “enemy” for a lengthy period of time.

But you were quite right and perceptive, Acappella, to point out the vulnerability that lies beneath the cynicism that people feel.  It would have been much better if I had pointed out that I do not use the word “cynical” as a pejorative term.  People have become cynical about the motives and hidden intentions of others for very good reasons.  As you wisely pointed out, people are quite capable of being drawn into “good” causes that end up creating many innocent victims.  It is difficult for people to determine whom they can trust without having more time to evaluate things.

One very important and essential truth in this life (that few newlyweds seem to understand) is the fact that trust is not something one is entitled to simply because one has requested it or demanded it from another.  A spouse may believe he has a right to his wife’s eternal trust simply because he once declared to her that he is worthy of it.  But trust is something that can only be earned slowly over time, by repeatedly demonstrating that you are trustworthy.  (Yes, people will “offer” their trust to a person whom they would really like to be able to trust, but this is not the same thing as “feeling your trust” in another.)  Our need for reassurance is never-ending and reasonable.

(This is true because of the fundamental uncertainty human beings have to struggle with in this life.  We are not born with an inherent understanding of what is true.  It’s something we have to figure out.  It may be true that most of the “facts” we embrace are ultimately only guesses, but there is nothing wrong with making guesses and assuming that they are true, so long as our experience continues to validate their accuracy.  Our confidence in our guesses grows if they “hold up over time.”)

When human beings are first exposed to something new and unfamiliar, they tend not to trust their own judgments about what they are seeing.  And so they typically look over their shoulders to see what everyone else thinks.  If “most people” seem to be embracing a certain guess about the New Thing, they will feel more confident embracing the same guess.  It is the reason why most people are “natural majoritarians.”  Some individuals, however, have more confidence in their evaluations of a New Thing because they possess the kind of related knowledge one needs to be able to make sound judgments.

So yes, it's going to take some time for people to become familiar with the WE ARE S.A.V.E.D. message and recognize that it is not some kind of exploitative scam.  Sometimes the only thing you can do, if others are voicing suspicions about you and you know that you are innocent, is to steadfastly protest your innocence.  If you are true to your word, then most people will begin to see it after a while...

Thanks again, Acappella.  Your openness and perspicacity are very special gifts indeed…

Gabriel
communications.officer@wearesaved.org

P.S. There is little doubt that you are correct about the web site author’s vulnerability.  I’m quite sure that he fears the possibility of being overwhelmed by events, but I think his expressed concern about becoming an inseparable part of the Message is also quite legitimate when you think about it.

[Gabriel]

Hi again, Portia...

I hope that you were not deeply offended when I described you as [likely] cynical.  As I stated in my response to Acappella, I don't really think that being cynical is a bad thing.

I did want to ask you a question related to the WE ARE S.A.V.E.D. web site.  

Do you think it would be a good thing if "everyone" began to declare their emotional vulnerability to each other?

If not, why not?

Thanks...

"Gabe"
communications.officer@wearesaved.org

[CC]

Hi Portia,

Just wanted to say although I did not respond as cynically as you did, I am with you in feeling as if the SAVED thing is possibly not sincere.  The fact that Gabriel has never visited here before (under this name anyway) and I have been lurking here for many months and have never heard of this thing, and then all of a sudden here he is to "save the day" leads me to believe that Accapella may be being procilitized (sp?) to in her vulnerability and is being subjected to a veiled form of solicitation.

It is not fair of me to cast any aspersions toward the content of the website as I have not visited.. nor am I interested.  but just from the lengths I have seen this person go to in this one thread it makes one think he is now digging himself out of a hole to prevent further skepticism - and to convince us of its intent.  

Gabriel, if you are so interested in this subject, why have you not shown yourself previously to share your OWN experiences?  Why are you singling out just person to recruite them elsewhere?  If your intent is to contribute to this board and its content, why are you not addressing the pertinent subject directly - voicelessness as it relates to narcissism?

Accapella I am glad you have your eyes wide open and can discern a message from its ulterior motives.  I just decided to chime in with Portia's reservations since she used her voice to say what I was already thinking - and so that this new visitor knows that we are not all buying it.

[Discounted Girl]

Maybe Gabriel is just here to blow his horn -- I personally prefer to hear posters play their violins, but that's just me.  

[Acappella]

One of the things I like about the vulnerability focus is that it speaks to a vital element of emotional survival (rather than Nism or any other clinical distinction in the title). Voice and emotional survival and vulnerability are universal like the water and air that all islands share - and are also the only modes of travel between those islands.  

And, distinguishing the message from the messenger is also a key skill for us vulnerable humans, for me at least. I think we are doing a fine job of feeling out that one as a group.  So at least we are not too cynical to hobble along that process together nor too idealistic to expect it to be wrapped up in a disney bow.  Someone posted wisely to me months ago to be careful not to expect too much too soon.  She (I think) was so right.  Reaction is fast, easy and cheap.  Responsiveness is an expensive, work in prgress.  Get what I pay for.....

One of the reasons I feel safe here at this forum is that in addition to my own survival and thrival skills there is a community of folks like CC and portia and discounted girl & me   with zest and humor and a moderator (THANKS AGAIN R Grossman) who is providing a place for discussions such as this one.  And we all just dropped in outta the blue one day as has Gabriel & so this like most of the real world is essentially a open place.  What better antidote to cults? R. Grossman isn't worried that by associating his name with this site we are all going to obsess upon him like moths to flame or that he is unprepared to handle it if we do or if he is he has courageously gone forth anyway.  Richard Grossman is illustrating how good as well as tricky vulnerability can be among a group by providing this place.  

All of us just showed up here one day "outta" the blue as you have Gabriel  AND a lack of disclosure (while useful in sound bite advertisements or when dealing with the very youngest of children and my dog) puts an inherent limit on the level of connection.

[Gabriel]

No time for a lengthy answer to the specific questions I'm being asked right now, but I do have a couple of simple questions for you, Acappella, and "Portia" and "CC" and "Discounted Girl"...

How many of you disclose your real names on this board?

When you realize that a poster on this board is not actually using her real name, do you feel threatened by the lack of full disclosure?

Until tomorrow...

Gabriel

[Acappella]

Speaking for my self I accept that this is a limited exchange in part due to limited disclosure.

So far no one is asking for financial contributions (not that it is inherently wrong of course to do so).  No one here is asking me or anyone else to join in anything - this is simply a blank set of pages on which we can express our written voices and listen and contribute spontaneously.

If I were to join another group who asked more of me then I'd also be looking for an equitable exchange.  If I were to start another group and ask for donations and investment and disclosure I'd aim to start by doing all three my self first.

This is the last post in this thread  in which I:
1)  will respond in defense this site or its participants or
2)  discuss the WE ARE S.A.V.E.D. site.  
As for the former - I feel safe enough here and this thread has strengthen my sense of connection through process rather than a specific answer - just like real life.  
As for the later there is a WE ARE S.A.V. E.D. post that Gabriel started and/or perhaps a vulnerability thread is in order for any who are interested in the topic in general.  

As to the reason I started this thread (rather the one to which this title refers)- namely I was feeling lost and alone -  your responses have been helpful in a way I hadn't expected.  i suspected but now feel more clearly that there is just a big ole mix of vulnerability within each of us and among us, and many responses to it and uses for it. I was seeking some synchronisity and safety which I have felt here thank you.  And this thread has strengthen my sense of connection through process rather than with a specific answer - just like real life. Thanks again all: opportunists, idealists, and mama bears too!  I got in touch with my inner cub.  

LOL

[CC]

Gabriel, I am indeed not threatened by a lack of disclosure of people's given names here.  We have established relationships already that are based on mutual disclosure of experiences and safety, we have exposed our own vulnerabilities, and have developed trust. And if you had been following this board for any length of time, you would have already understood that the lack of disclosure of our given names is primarily for the protection from other people (Ns) that might be snooping in our lives and that we do not feel as safe with...not because we have anything to hide from each other.

I might add that your defensive posture, and the fact that you don't have time to address the questions raised by a few of us here heightens my concern that you may not have come here with the best of intentions - yet you felt the need to have the last word...seems a little narcissistic?  

Perhaps we have gotten off on the wrong foot.  If you have something to share here other than touting another website, I for one would be interested in hearing it.  We are here for listening, and to hear each other's voices.  But let's not continue the website discussion on Accapellas clock.  This is her thread.

Accapella, I really liked what you said about how a lack of disclosure puts an inherit limit on the level of connection.. you are right on.  I am glad you got some "indirect" feedback and support, as an ironic outcome.. I guess it doesn't matter how you get it as long as you get it!  I don't like to see you feel lost, when you have worked so hard not to be.  But we inevitably will feel that sometimes as we define our new identity (our new self) outside of what the N in our life has always defined us as!  

Hugs