What do you think re: Supernanny?

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya all

I was watching Supernanny USA yesterday.  I don't know how many of you have seen it but personally I find it very interesting.

I was wondering this though:-

How do you think the kids end up like they do?

Did they receive too much "voice" so they control the parents?  Or not enough "voice" which is why they act out?

Just curious about this and like to hear your thoughts.

H&H xx

[2224Jessica]

http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm

Hi Healing and Hopeful,
Great topic, I love supernanny too. ]
I have two kids, a girl thats 16 months and a boy thats 3 and a half. They are very different. My boy has verbal dyspraxia so he has difficulty expressing words and his social skills are behind. From Birth he has been fussy, demanding, strongwilled, challenging, hates eating and sleeping. He's always been a joyful baby too. From 2, he wouldn't listen to the word "No" he would laugh and do it again and again and again. He is extremely active so he use to run around alot and get very hyper. We had him checked for ADHD and he doesn't have that because he can concentrate and be focussed on tasks for long periods of time. But we  found out that is is a "highly sensitive child" (HSP). http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm This means that he's sensitive to lights, noise, gets overwhelmed when excited, food can affect his behaviour. HSP also can have difficulty expressing feelings so he aften acts out when he can't express himself or is unable to understand why he feels something. This frustates him. We allow him time to express himself and often is alot calmer after he's expressed what he need to express. He gets overwhelmed and he goes hyper, so we have to find ways to settle him. He gets overwhelmed in loud shopping centres sometimes,  when he's excited etc. When he gets overwhelmed, he can get hyper, doesn't listen to us, starts getting agitated because its all too much and finds it hard to settle. The older he gets the easier. Often finding a quiet place for him calms him.   However he's still strongwilled, demanding, bossy and challenging and often will try to get the upperhand. We have learnt that consistency, routine, timeouts, spending quality time with him regulary, setting strong guidlines and rewards for good behaviour work really well. Also spending time at the end of the day to see how he is works well too. Also making sure that he hasn't been cooped up inside for too long. So I think kids probably act out because they are bored, because they can, because they want attention, because they don't have guidlines to follow etc. My daughter is only 16 months but I only have  to say the word "No" once and she looks at me and stops what she's doing. From birth she has been a placid, quiet, contented, easy, calm and is like a text book baby. I think some kids are harder to disapline than others but they all need guidlines, routine, consistency etc.
My parents didn't allow us to have voice but would bash us if we were naughty. We were good children and obeyed out of fear.
I think giving too much voice is possible. My boy finds a thousand excuses for not going to bed, I think he would take advantage if I gave him too much voice because he probably argue with me about what he wants. I think letting them know what the rules are and who's in charge but also allowing them to be an individual, showing them respect and allowing them to express themselves is important. I'm only new at the parenting thing so it would be great to have other input.
I really don't know what the balance of how much voice you allow, I am afraid of overcompensating sometimes...

Jessica

[CeeMee]

Funny you should bring it up H&H, I was just talking to my husband about this subject and wondering to myself what the deal is with voice in my family.  Now I've not watched Supernanny but I have a situation that may apply to this topic.

I've noticed that when I am talking with my sister and my kids are in the room, they either leave the room, or if they stay, they remain quiet and will rarely interject in the conversation.  With my niece and nephew, whenever I am talking with their mom, they will pull up a seat and join the conversation to the point of interrupting or taking over.  When this happens, my sister will acknowledge them and turn the conversation to them and our conversation ceases.

Now at first I thought this was a good thing that she gave them voice but soon I noticed a pattern in the behavior.  It appeared to me that they were less interested in the topic of discussion (which quickly changed)  than being the center of their mom's  attention for a few minutes or however long they felt the need.   It actually became annoying after a while.  What is most interesting is that they only do this when their mom is talking with me.   When mom is not around and they are at my house, they are more interested in the conversations and games of my children than what adults are talking about.

I am guessing that my sister thinks this is a good thing that she stops and lets her kids have a voice in our conversations.  Not to mention that onlookers may think, wow, what a great mom she is with her kids.  On the other hand, I find the behavior rude and symptomatic of an underlying need for mom's attention that isn't being met through normal channels.

For a long time, I didn't react to  this behavior.  When it became annoying, I started to walk away and allow her time to converse with her children.  Just the other day,  my nephew (who is on vacation from school and has been at our house almost the whole time) interrupted while I was speaking to his mom and instead of stopping, I continued what I was saying.  He continued.  I continued.  It almost became a contest to see who would give way.  Finally, he stopped and waited until I was finished and then interjected his comments. 

Am I making him voiceless?  I don't think so.  I think he is having to learn common courtesy when speaking.  Yet, I know that this is really all about him not getting the attention he needs and he deserves from his mom at home.  My sister actually said during that conversation that she couldn't wait for school to start again so she would have free time.  I was aghast since her son, my nephew, has been at my house almost the entire time he has been on vacation.   When she is at home (and not at c hurch) he's at our house which makes me think that she may be there in body only.  Kids are smart.  My nephew has figured out that the best time to get mom to pay attention to him is when others are around.

CeeMee


 

[Cadbury]

I have three children. Two daughters aged almost 5 and 3 1/2 and an 8 month old son. They are all different in terms of temperment but each and every one of them has been brought up in a reasonably strict routine. I talk to them all the time and listen to them. However, I don't let them take over a conversation or interupt others when they are talking.They are all excellently behaved and I am sure it is just because they know exactly where they stand. They know what the punishment is for misbehaviour (naughty step) and that this will happen every single time they are naughty. They know what will happen each day (I am flexible, but tend to follow a pattern). I think Supernanny (I am a HUGE fan) works by instilling consistent discipline and routines. I think that more often than not the reason that some of those children have ended up with the behavioural problems they have come to Supernanny for, is simply lack of direction. Whether they have too much or not enough voice seems less relevant than whether they know where they stand from day to day. When you watch the program (as I do, obsessively!) you see that a lot of the parents are quite wishy-washy in what they allow the children to do, which leaves the children not really knowing what is right or wrong. Also when they aren't giiven enough attention children will often resort to the easiest route. With some parents it is a lot easier to get negative attention than positive, so you get children that are often naughty just to get some response from their parents. When Supernanny gets there and introduces positive rewards for good behaviour, naughty step (or equivalent) for bad behaviour and a family routine then the changes are quite quick to happen.


This is such an interesting topic, I gave it a lot of thought before I actually responded. I do wonder if lack of routine etc may be something that is more common with N parents? I don't mean that all unorganised parents are N, but maybe all N parents are unorganised. After all, if it isn't involving them, why would they bother? Just my thoughts...

[Hopalong]

Over here in never-grow-up adolescent America, brats are everywhere!
When I watch Nanny I'm staggered by how childlike the parents are.
They seem not to understand that they're SUPPOSED to be very very different than children.
That they have to have learned that while feelings matter and deserve voice and compassion, there's a vital thing they also need to give their children: SOCIALIZATION.

....How to behave civilly to create a civil society (if we ever wrest it back from the clutches of the terrifying brutes in Washington, but that's another thread...)

I think whiny, interrupting, bratty kinds aren't expressing voice, but the natural consequence of having parents who often seem like either disengaged observers or mushy-boundaried older siblings with no confidence in their own adult voice.

I feel sorry for the kids. The parents too.
When the social order was turned upside down in the 60s, a  lot of us never came home from Woodstock.

Hopalong

[write]

well, one big difference I have noticed in the US- people seem confident to have HUGE families. Four and more children seems to be much more common than in England.

And most of the 'Supernanny' programmes I have seen are really dealing with that- how to raise a large family without going mad in a world of me-ism self-fulfillment....

Children tend to INSIST on their voice unless it is knocked out of them, but when all those voices are competing and fighting for attention and to be heard....it's not The Waltons. It's chaos.

Having the income to raise a large family is not the same as having the energy and organisational skills to attend to all their needs and keep a family together.

Supernanny exploits this to create a reality TV show we can all heckle, though we would probably all be the same raising more kids than we can realistically take care of.

Plus all the fathers seem to be uniquely- ABSENT.
Working, doing church and community stuff. Anything but putting their many kids to bed...

Is it narcissistic to have a huge family?
It's narcissistic to have any family I guess, in a world with so many under-cared-for children.

Are you an American Hopalong? It's unusual to hear an American recognising what the rest of the world see and fear!

[Hopalong]

I'm a (Sourthern) Yank and in the majority who did NOT elect Horrifying George but got stuck with him anyway.

My heartfelt apologies on behalf of my juvenile nation to every human being in the entire world. We will try hard to get rid of him/them and convince the rest of the world that once the current crud is scraped off, there's still a good heart over here...(I hope, I hope).

Oh-ho saaaay can you seeee, by the dawn's earleeee liiiiiiiiiggggt....

 
Hops

[nightsong]

I saw the American version of Supernanny the other day. I was impressed how well Jo translates! The series is pretty much the same as the UK version, just slightly glossier and more sentimental perhaps - the principles seem to be exactly the same though.

What struck me more than  ever was, not the discipline side of it, but the amount of fun and interaction with the children that she emphasises. I reckon those kids get more quality attention from their parents under Jo's regime than they ever did before. She has the parents (well the mother usually - I agree about the asentee fathers) playing all sorts of games with their children, cooking, doing crafts, and involving them in a constructive way with the chores. So the need for better behaviour half solves itself, as the child sees her siblings having fun while she is doing her time-out on the naughty step.

The children nearly always seem to adore Jo. I think she has the knack of being the adult in the relationship while genuinely respecting and listening to the kids - giving them voice in other words. Long may she reign 

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya Jessica, CeeMee, Cadbury, Write, Hoppy & Nightsong

I have found it really interesting reading your replies....

Jessica, I'm assuming HSP is similiar to Autism as I recognise several of his behaviours you describe.  I too was good as a child because of fear.

CeeMee, I agree with you re: your nephew.  You are not taking away his voice, just trying to put a boundary in place.  In the long run, if he kept interupting people, then it would backfire on him and people would think him rude.  Maybe next time a way could be just saying "It is rude to interupt... I would like to hear what you've got to say when I finished my current conversation"

Cadbury, from a personal experience with my parents, I would say that my parents weren't unorganised.  In fact everything was so rigid, that there was no room for flexibility.

Write, I feel that the reason with different sized families between the UK and US is down to financial resources. In the UK, majority don't have the income to raise large families.  That said though, my husband is from a large family (8 siblings) and three of his siblings went on to have families of 3 or more children.  They all have great kids too, so I wouldn't say it was narcisstic to have a large family in their case, however they could be in the minority, I'm not sure.

I do understand what you mean about people having children when there are so many under cared for kids.  If I had a pound for each time someone said to me "but it's different when it's your own", I would have a few quid.  I get the impression that there's an unspoken rule (rule's not the right word but I can't think what to put) that parents treat their own children better than someone elses.... why?

Hoppy, I feel you're spot on when you say the parents don't have confidence in their own voice.  I can possibly relate to this more than others.  I can understand why the parents are like they are.  One of the reasons I love supernanny is because I am really against smacking children, but before supernanny I wasn't sure how to instill some kind of disapline.  I feel that the naughty step is ideal for setting a boundary.

Nightsong, yes you can see the difference between the UK and US versions of supernanny, but I was pleased to see how the basic principles were the same.


I can also relate to what you were saying about absent fathers.  This is another reason in my debate with my hubby whether to have children or not.  My H works nights, or sometimes he has to work away.  This is not something that's going to change, because that's he job, if he doesn't do that then we would have problems paying the bills.  Another debate is "working mum's"?

It funny how we see things though... Write you said about Supernanny exploiting stuff to create a reality TV show.... I see it as no one teaches you how to be a good parent... where do you learn it from, our parents!  I think it's brilliant as it gives viewers the opportunity to use her techniques and learn to be a better parent.

Take care

H&H xx

[write]

I get the impression that there's an unspoken rule (rule's not the right word but I can't think what to put) that parents treat their own children better than someone elses.... why?

ironic isn't it, because the most likely person to damage a child is their parent.

People also say to me 'but  you've only got one' as though I'm some kind of novice!

Oh-ho saaaay can you seeee, by the dawn's earleeee liiiiiiiiiggggt....

*snigger*

[2224Jessica]

Hi everyone,
Hi Healing and Hopeful, yes my son does have some sort of autism (slight I think) but it's also linked to Dyspraxia too.In remembering how I was raised, I can't comprehend treating my children that way. I would die for my kids and I'm always hugging them and telling them I love them. I can't comprehend why my parents have and still put themselves first and never listened to us.  I know they are coming to see my sister next week and am very nervous because I really don't want to see them. I know they will try to get me in line again... I have to be strong. My younger brother is very curious that I am standing up to them. I thought he was in denial about it. He told me the other day that he hated being brainwashed. He seems to want to talk about it every time he sees me.. I haven't talked about narcissism and I let him initiate the conversation.
I found the fact that they didn't respect me and didn't truly try and enter my world or love me harder to take than anything else. Definately I think respect, love and getting to know them for them is vital along with proper super nanny parenting... I agree with you about super nanny. I learn from her techniques how to be a petter parent as I didn't learn them off mine..

Jessica

[CeeMee]

Jac,

That was a great post.  I agree with each line and sentiment.  Your children are so lucky.  How old are they?  Did you have to have a whole boat load of them to understand so well what is really important?       I think my first child (son) suffered from all my mistakes.  By the time my daughter came around, I'd learned a few things.  But it is not a job that is easy or that we get training for.  Unfortunately, much of it is trial,  error and a desire to do the best job that we can because we believe that it truly is the MOST important job in the world.  I always say, my kids turned out great despite me.  A testament to the difficulty of the job at hand. 

As an American, I will agree that we have a serious problem here on our hands with our youth.  The problem definitely begins with the parents though.  Maybe TV reality shows are the way to educate Americans on a variety of issues.  I know from experience that most parents that I've encountered would react very defensively should ANYONE (teacher, neighbor or even relative) try to say something about their child, suggest how the child should handled or worse try to verbally discipline or educate  that child. 

I've seen the equivalent to road rage happen between parents who have taken issue with another child's behavior.

H&H, what you propose sounds very reasonable with regards to my nephew but in reality, it would be interpreted by his mother as an attack on her parenting.  It is safer to use subtler methods in such situations when the mom is present and chooses not to take any action.  Contrary to the saying "it takes a village to raise a child" the American saying is "those villagers had better not try to tell me how to raise my child."

Ohhhhh sayyy cann you seeeeeeeeeeeee....

CeeMee

[Hopalong]

....BYYYYYY the daaaaaaawn's earleeeee liiiiiiiiiiigggghhhhhht....
just how baaaaaaaaadly we paaaaaaaarent
over heeeeere while we're whiiiiiiiiiningggggg.....

Sheesh, I know what you mean, CeeMee. And it's a really sad development.
I sometimes think America is wrestling with not developing Narcissism itself. If a country is a personality, we've got a disorder to deal with.

The culture's halfway around the bend, and one can only pray the saner and more spiritual
(as opposed to religious) parts of it will eventually prevail.

In the meanwhile, world, as one wonderful website put it after the election:
Sorry, Everybody.

Hopalong

[Healing&Hopeful]

Jessica....  I think it's great that your younger brother is talking to you about your parents.  As he's initiating the conversation, maybe you would like to suggest narcissism and then let him read up about it.  If he's asking questions, it may be that he's looking for answers too, but I feel it would need to be something for him to discover on his own. 
 
If you don't want to see your parents, why do you have to see them?  Sometimes we can just be too busy,  Oh I'm sorry I can't see you today as I'm taking such and such to such a place.... Oh I'm really sorry, but today I have to do this.  If you feel it will cause too much heartache to do that, then you could always arrange to spend say an hour with them... I can only spare an hour because I have to pick such and such up.... that kind of thing.  It's just an idea.
 
Jac... I felt so inspired by your post, outlook and your motto.
 
It's odd in a way because my n bio dad preached about treating others the way you should want others to treat you.  Do unto others as you expect others to do to you, in a serious preachy voice.  He used to say this when I didn't meet with one of his expectations, or said something negative about him.  This made me think how different people can interpret different sayings.
 
CeeMee.... I didn't think about the defensiveness of parents when someone says something negative about their child or their parenting.  I feel that this possibly makes programmes like Supernanny quite ingenius really.  She is able to indirectly speak to a huge number of people in different countries, about things that their teachers, next door neighbours etc can't say.  I feel this is because all people relate to someone having "bratty kids", however while the government is wondering what to do about it, give more power to teachers etc etc, her programme puts the onus back onto the parents where it belongs, and gives them ways to deal with it.  Then it's up to the parents if they choose to do something about it.  The only problem I think about the programme is because it's filmed... the programme does seem to show little horrors going to little angels in a couple of weeks.  It's easy to film the worst of their behaviour to begin with and the best of their behaviour at the end.  This is probably just me being cynical though.
 
The situation with your nephew made me think of Austin Powers.  I don't know if you've seen this one, but it's where Dr Evil is sat around the table with his staff and Scotty.  Every time Scotty opens his mouth he goes Shhhhh... It's about 5 minutes long but quite funny.

Hoppy....
If a country is a personality, we've got a disorder to deal with
This is scary and funny at the same time....
 
Take care all
 
H&H xx

[mudpuppy]

Hi Everybody,

I have to agree with everyone here about how awful America is. My wife and I have grown so tired of the constant oppression and harrassment that we have decided to find a safer, less dictatorial place to live. After a lot of research, we have decided on the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Believe me, the choice of countries more pleasant to live in rather than this police state was nearly endless, but the good ol' DRC presented the best choice of climate, free health care and tolerance of our fellow man.
My wife, being a woman, has naturally grown exceedingly tired of the way she is disrespected here in Amerika as well, so her personal second choice was a tossup betwen Saudia Arabia and Iran, with a slight edge to Saudia Arabia as they tend to use larger rocks while stoning women to death, so its a little less painful.

If the DRC or our Middle Eastern friends won't have us, our last choice is the suburbs of gay Paree. We've got our asbestos car on order. The great thing is, if we opt for Paris we'll have most of Saudia Arabia, Iran and Algeria living with us in twenty years or so anyway, so we'll be able to enjoy the City of Lights and sharia at the same time.

mud