the Process of Labelling Behavior - Healthy?

[andromeda]

Hey guys -

I've been thinking about this after reading alot of the threads and posting on a few of them...

So we need to use a specific set of words to describe narcissists and their behaviors. We have to, in order to talk about the problems we are having with these people. I've noticed too using these labels when talking about analyzing ourselves...

I'm familiar with the process of scrutinizing myself to death, I'm working hard to train myself out of it. I really connect with the 'having an N-moment' labelling process...because I struggle with it.

Since N=bad, if I label myself as having an N-moment, I am, on some level, labelling myself as bad. There's this twisted negative self-judgement that happens in that process.

Its learned behavior: My Nmom trained me to look for my flaws, because she was always looking for my flaws, in order to have reason to criticise me and overrule how I was choosing to do things. She was the relentless detective, always snooping for reasons to take away any sort of inner authority I had to do things how I chose to do things. By treating me that way, she trained me to treat myself that way...

So the action of labelling myself, now, becomes part of that self-destructive process that Mom initiated me into. Because in the labelling process I am judging myself and coming up negative, all the time.

I'm really interested in your thoughts on this - its hard to write it in a way that makes sense.

Andromeda

[bean]

Hi andromeda,

You bring up some very good points.  I don't have the answer, but know that one of the things that has helped me to not be so neurotic and perfectionist is to accept that I make mistakes and that's OK.  Making mistakes is part of being human, so in a weird way I get some inner peace by recognizing I've made a mistake, forgiving myself, and allowing myself to continue to make them.  So labelling oneself all the time could aslo be viewed as either good or bad, healthy or not; but think about it,as victims of N's that is what we do, as we have been trained so well by our N to do this.

One thing I would suggest then, that has helped me is to reconginze when you're doing something you feel deeply distubed by: whether it me overanalyzing your own behavior, having undesirable behavior, displaying any of the N traits (we know we have them too at times) and just say "I'm OK, even if I don't like myself for this."  In other words, it's OK to not like yourself even!


There is an interesting analysis of NPD here, that touches on the concept of "shoulds."  Or what we or others tell us we "should" do or "should be like."  It also defines what it means to be neurotic (below).

http://www.ptypes.com/narcissisticpd.html

"The need for perfection refers to the drive to mold the whole personality into the idealized self. Neurotics are not content to merely make a few alterations; nothing short of complete perfection is acceptable. They try to achieve perfection by erecting a complex set of "shoulds" and "should nots." Horney (1950) referred to this as the triumph of the should. Striving toward an imaginary picture of perfection, a neurotic "unconsciously tells himself: 'Forget about the disgraceful creature you actually are; this is how you 'should be'" (Horney, 1950, p. 64)."

[Hopalong]

Great thread. thanks for starting it.

When I'm in a healthy place and feel an inner Nspot stirring, I can see it mostly just as a descriptor...not a shame-label. It's not exactly NEUTRAL, but it isn't damnation either. In those times I say to myself, yes, hello, there that is...I know where I learned that and why it's in me. But that's not my totality and I'm okay, I can still love myself. A little compassion over here!

If I'm in a weakened state and experience an inner N-flare, then I go EWWWW and feel afraid.

Hopalong

[Marta]

Andromedia,

Great thread. At one point, I got too caught up in concepts so I was constantly analyzing whether I was projecting or introjecting or WHAT.

On the other hand, N label has helped me enormously. It has made it easier for me to deal with the fact that there is little hope re. my mom, made me accept her for what she is.

Marta

[darky]

i agree with martha, i do not know for certain my mother is a n, but having said that, after many years of mental cruelty and struggling within, and struggling with being rejected, this is the only label i can find that kind of ticks all the boxes for me and allows me to understand, and accept now nothing is going to change.
 giving her this label has dampened the fire within me, the hatred and resentment and all the bitter feelings. i still cannot forgive her, but understanding for me is the key. it also takes the blame away. i can forgive myself also.

[Plucky]

Great topic!
Being able to label
my mother has enabled
me
to put her inside a box
close the top
and I'm free!
Plucky

[Portia]

Hi Andromeda

So the action of labelling myself, now, becomes part of that self-destructive process that Mom initiated me into. Because in the labelling process I am judging myself and coming up negative, all the time.

Want to tell us how you label yourself? All the really nasty things you say to yourself? Then we can knock them about a bit, see if they’re close to reality or not. How would that feel? Or is that too scary a thought? I did some of it over on my ‘growing up’ thread. Just to give you a nudge if need be. Or maybe you don’t want to, which is fine too.

Plucky, lovely little ditty, I enjoyed it

[Hopalong]

For me, one thing about labels is that in my head they become global, permanent, like a sentence.

(I mean a prison sentence.)

I think that's because of the very fundamentalist, hellfire-and-brimstone religion of my grandfather, that filtered down through my mother, and that was added to in church. You're good or bad, saved or damned. It was a black and white religion.

So when I have a negative word come into my head about myself: selfish, Nspot, intrusive, whatever it is I'm catching myself at...it really shakes me. It takes some effort to calm down and get balanced about it, because the word itself strikes fear the way "hell" "unsaved" "evil" "wicked" and "sinner" did when I was a little girl.

I think the truth of it is more that there are streams of things going through me and my behavior. Just as many good as bad, healthy as unhealthy, loving as selfish. But I overlook or discount the positive ones (after all, they would represent "pride"--another sin), and when a negative one comes along, there's fear.

Make any sense to anybody?

Hopalong

[Marta]

Selfish is a characteristic. One can have a bunch of characteristics. One can be selfish at times and nice at times. NPD defines a bunch of characteristics, the primary one being lack of empathy, and all kinds of other crap originates from that. For NPD to be genuinely compassionate is like saying reptiles can also have breasts, just becaue I do.

Fault lies not with labels, but with us for misunderstanding and misusing them at times. If we must use labels, then we must also be very scientific in our use of them. Understand the concept, make our own observations, and arrive at our own conclusions.

My own conclusion? Reptiles may grow breasts, but Ns never ever feel true compassion.

Marta

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Marta.
I definitely have boobs.
But my daughter has a python.

 
(He is a very boring python. She urges me to hold him on my lap when I visit. She says, the only thing, Mom, is don't let him go down on the floor. Then she goes tra-la-la off on a phone call and Mr. Python decides he wants to get on the floor. I don't especially want to get into an argument--he's not a big python but he does have teeth--so I do this sort of wind-the-yarn kind of slowwwwww maneuver while Mr. P just keeps acting like, yeah, riiiiiiigghhht, but I want to go down theeeeeeere...until I give up and go, Ahhh, sweetie? COME GET MR. P RIGHT NOW I DON'T WANNA HOLD HIM ANY MORE!!!)

Yerrggh.

[Plucky]

Yes but does the python have breasts????
Plucky

[Hopalong]

I was really trying to stay on his good side so I didn't inspect him too well.
He seemed kind of mildly macho, so I don't think so.

Hops

[Marta]

I was really trying to stay on his good side so I didn't inspect him too well.
He seemed kind of mildly macho, so I don't think so.

Hops

Hoppy, that's what you are guilty of, labelling HIM without really gettting to know him. That's exactly the point I was trying to make.