Relationships are tough at 50

[Its not Easy]

Hi all, I posted here a few months ago and received valuable advice.Maybe you'all can advise me again.

Two months ago I formed a relationship with a stunning(in all ways) lady (lets calll her J50)
We have been seeing each other several times a week since then. WE progressed to physical intimacy about Christmas time. I should add that she has a strong desire for a 'nice' life without conflict and difficulty. She is sometimes more in tune with other's feelings that with her own. Sjhe is also regularly wiiling to defer and refer to others about hthin 'slice' of a person.
I am single with no children and J50 has three,two of whom live with her,her daughted E23 and D17 who is her son,a high school senior. The numbers represent their ages.

WE have had several difficulties so far and I will start with one which happened just before New Years eve. J50 said to me at Christmas time that her sisters MAYbe planning a party at a coastal town about 50 miles away. Nothing more was said and so I mentioned to J50 that I wiould like to go to a dinner dance on New Year's at a local club. She agreed to come and we went together when I picked up the tickets at $40 a head. I also arranged for us to sit with a group of friends at their table on the night. However two days before New Years J50 tells me that the sisters party is going ahead and that she fells obligated to go .She did not invite me and suggested that I may like to ask another lady to go to the dance.  I went alone and had a good time but it was not what I hoped it to be.
We seemed to get past that incident .
Yesterday we had a long discussion about the 'shape and definition' of our relationship which is now a little over two months old.
WE agreed to define it as a "committed. exclusive, intimate relationship". We talked about our expectations and our perspectives in relation to our friendships with members of the opposite sex.
J50 did mention that she objects to my going out dancing alone, and I agreed not to do that.
She also agreed to limits her coffee dates with a man who is pursuing her --and so on.

This past Saturday night J50 was invited to  M's house for a 50th bithday party(a long time girlfriend). J50 asked me to go too. I was keen to go out to another venue to dance and I asked J50 if we could do both -go to the party for a while and then go dancing later. She replied that she would not want to do that because if we left halfway thru the party it would hurt M's feelings.She said that I could go dancing without her if I really wanted to but she wanted to go to the party
WE went to the party and stayed until 11:30 and then went home - no dancing for me.

Now to the present problem. It is J50's bithday next weekend .She turns 50. A few weeks ago she mentioned to me that her sister and mother may be organising a celebration and that this may be the time for her to "integrate" me. I mentioned that I wiould be thrilled to come and meet her family.
 I have had a special formal gown made for her as a birthday gift. It looks gorgeous.
Last night she and I were out dancing and she mentioned that the planned birthday celebrations did not eventuate because the other family members could not agree on the details and times and places. J50 then said that her three children had now planned to take her out for a celebration dinner this coming Saturday night. She then said that she and I could "do something else" on another night around her birthday. Clearly I was not to be invited to her dinner celebration. She also knows that Saturday night is my "going out with my girlfriend" night.  We went outside to talk about this and I said that I felt excluded. I pointed out that if the situation were reversed and it was my birthday then I would insist that she was invited my family. J50 said that her daughter E23 was organising this event and that if J50 insisted that I be included then it may"hurt her feelings".
She further said that maybe she (J50) did not feel as "committed" as I do. It felt like one slap after another, so I just said nothing and kinda walked away and drove home feeling as if I counted for little in this relationship. I feel like and optional extra in her life.
What do you ladies think.
I feel as if it is not really much point in continuing this relationship- it feels like I am coming last and that is not what I look for in a "committed, exclusive,relationship."
 

[pink]

J50 sounds very inconsiderate at the very least. You sound very considerate. If it's not feeling good now in the beginning stages of the relationship, I wouldn't expect it to get better -- only worse. And you deserve better!! 

Sorry. That's probably not what you wanted to hear, but it's a lot easier to get over a 2-month relathionship gone bad than have it drag out until the pain is unbearable.

Wish *I* could find a nice guy like you!! 

[Hopalong]

Hey Easy,
You know me, ol' blunt Hop. I know you'd like me to tell it like I really see it, so here goes:

2 months = too fast

To know someone well enough to begin to have expectations about family inclusion, wrangling all the roles and potential sensitivities and turf...just seems too soon. Might be built on fantasy material instead of truly knowing each other.

Seems that you did talk and make agreements, but made them too soon.
Was one of you pressing more than the other for the exclusivity? "We agreed" could cover a lot of vibes.
When an "agreement" is made, it's sometimes a delicate thing to recognize if someone's going along to get along...but not really ready.

My guess is that's what happened. The quickstep to commitment was too quick.

I'm sorry. Sounds very painful.

If you have what you think is REAL RECIPROCITY (not one "persuading" the other that you're ready for the Real Thing)...then maybe you two could backpedal a little and try again at a calmer pace.

In my own experience, sex too soon leaves the brain behind, because the dreamy fusion of sex makes it so much harder to honestly assess what's possible between 2 people. The bond of sex makes you want to have it become realer and deeper, whether or not the many levels of compatibility a truly fulfilling relationship would require are really in place. It really does take more time to know that, especially if there have been hurts or disappointments or broken relationships in the past...

I feel this book might really help you see the logic of what I'm saying. It gives reasons I'm not echoing, and states it so much better than I can. It's aimed at men and women and it's smart. I think it would help you in this situation or another and would really like to know what you think of it. A Fine Romance by Judith Sills, PhD

I'm truly sorry for your hurt and disappointment, Not Easy. Those are real, just as real as the hopes that might have got you ahead of yourselves...

Hopalong

[Its not Easy]

It is all very well to talk about us "going too fast" . We cannot "backpedal". The relationship has progressed to the stage that it has. Bells have been rung and we cannot unring them.

My guess is that J50 does not "own" enough of her own life to be able to contribute some of it to a real grown-up relationship with me. Other people have more sway over the "things" of my relationship with her than she does . She refers decicions to othere quite readily and I am affected by these decisions to a large degree. And I am beginning to resent her for this.
Anymore thoughts about what to say or do next.

Any of you free next Saturday night? And there is a full-lenght 'gray and blac' sequiined, backless gown available too.


Its not Easy.

[pink]

(Waves hands)  Over here, over here!     

i understand the wisdom of going slower, but I also recently got in a relationship myself that went that fast and we really did find something very beautiful with one another. unfortunately, we also found a fatal flaw. personally, i'm kind of glad it went that fast -- because it could have taken us a year to find out we shoud break up rather than three months. every time i start in a new relationship I *plan* for it to go slower, but that hasn't happened yet and I can't promise it ever will. personally, I don't attribute the problems of my last relationship to going too fast as much as continuing even after seeing the Big Red Flags.

For you, she keeps putting you as second priority to others. For me, he kept putting me as second priority to his holy "spiritual connection" with his N ex-wife. He warned me in the beginning that he was going to keep her as a close friend and the red flags went up when he was *so* defensive about it, and more and more red flags went up as time went on, as I learned more and more and more about the abuse he put up with with her for so many years, and finally it got so that it was as if she was there with us "in spirit" so much of the time. I look back and personally don't say, "it was a mistake to get so involved so quickly" as much as I say "it was a mistake to ignore the red flags."

Once I started talking to him about my concerns about his ex-wife it just went on and on -- him continually defending her and not budging and making it a "matter of principal" as if I were trying to get him to change his religion.

My best advice is to confront her -- kindly, softly, gently -- about these issues, and don't stop talking about them until they are resolved. If this cannot be resolved, then you have to wonder if you two could make a good team for the other fly balls that life will send your way.

Hey, you've got a date here with a cute 52-y-o anytime.   

[Plucky]

Hi there Easy,
I'm just going to try to present a different perspective.  It may be right, it may be wrong.    From her point of view, the relationship, however wonderful and intense, might still be very new.  A person's family and especially children have a special place in their lives, and cannot always be 'integrated' with a new person very easily.  Perhaps her daughter would really be upset, whether this is right or wrong, and J50 does not want to make that happen.  Forcing you on the children is not a good way to start off a good relationship with them.  Their reaction might be wrong or knee-jerk, buit there it is and she cannot just ignore it and expect everything to work out afterwards.  It would be setting the stage for an all out struggle between you and her children, and this, you would lose.

On the other hand, maybe she is trying to get some space and tactfully placing blame elsewhere to spare your feelings.  You have decided that Saturday night is your GF night and you have to dance.  Maybe she has not decided that Sat is her BF dancing night and she wants some flexibilty.  Are you upset that you did not dance that one Saturday, even though you did spend time with her, and she invited you to her long time friend's party? 

She might be the kind of person who thinks out loud.  Saying that it is a good time to integrate you might have been her thinking then, but later she decided it was not a good idea for whatever reason - drama, other events to upstage, etc.    Who knows.

Without knowing everything, which is impossible in a forum like this one, I have to say I just might begin to feel a little smothered if I had to commit after 2 months, introduce to my whole family including my children, sign up for dancing every single last Sat night even if other things are going on, and I accepted an expensive gift, which was, surprise!  dancing-related.

If things have gone too fast and you both feel that they have, you can always slow down and regroove.   You are running the relationship, you two.  You can do anything you want.

You think you might have seen some red flags in the beginnning about her always doing what other people want. Are you just expecting her to do what you want, instead of what they want?  Would that make you happy - or do you want her to really stand up to you and express her own opinion, even if it collides with your own?

a contrarian
Plucky

[Its not Easy]

I cannot, for the life of me see ONE legitimate reason for NOT inviting me to her dinner.
Her daughter is 23 years old, not 12 and clingy!


A confused,
 Its not Easy.

[Plucky]

Hi Easy,
I don't know the reason offhand but I am not a 23 year old looking at my mother's boyfriend.  Maybe she just wants some time with just family, family that has been together a long time, and not to try to integrate someone new.  Maybe the daughter wanted to pay for it and thought that would be awkward with you there.  I'm just speculating.   I'm not saying the daughter ought to have excluded you - I'm just saying that if that is how the daughter felt, it would be difficult for your GF to go against that and may not be worth it in the long run for your relationship.
Plucky

[nightsong]

I cannot, for the life of me see ONE legitimate reason for NOT inviting me to her dinner.

I can see a legitimate reason. She doesn't want to.

I quite see how hurtful this is to you, BUT - isn't that what this board is all about? Us learning to stand up for what we want and need?

J50 is clearly a people pleaser, and what I imagine (from experience!) she finds difficult, is saying no to people, especially when she perhaps feels rather pushed into agreeing to something she's not sure about. This leads to some not-OK behaviour, like agreeing to go to the New Year's dance with you and then backing out. At least this time she's not doing that to you. She has told you where you stand.

It sounds to me as if you could have a good relationship long-term with this lady, but only if you can give her a little more breathing space.  I notice you are very resistant to the ideas expressed by others here, that you could slow things down for a while. Why is that?

At this stage in life we've all been through a  lot, and want special days to be just that, without any risks of upset and unpleasantless. I speak as someone whoi will be 50 tomorrow and have decided not to include my mother in this in any way. I want to celebrate with those who have been there for me over the years.

Good luck with all of this - you sound like a lovely guy who deserves happiness.

[Its not Easy]

Not inviting me to her 50th birthday celebration to appease her 23 year old daughter is as pathetic as it is co-dependent. Mom ''Needs" her daughter's approval and is unwilling to go against her daughters wishes. Can anyone explain how this is healthy ? I am seriously questioning whether I want to stay in a relationship with someone so needy that she gives her power away like this.

Getting resentful,
Its so Easy

[Hopalong]

Hey Easy,
Have you ever tried clicking on Profile, above? It takes you to all your own posts. If you read them from beginning to end sometimes your own patterns will pop out.

Seems to me there's a theme of indignation and blaming of various women who do something that feels hurtful to you. You do seem to get very worked up and have a need to blame them and find them bad and wrong. (And sometimes they are!) But then you wind up lonely... Takes courage and persistence and faith to hang in there and keep being open to finding someone.

But since you can't do anything about another's behavior out of the barn, you can only make different choices

I think you'll be helped most if you look for themes in your own choices and behaviors:
--how impatient are you to get from "hello" to horizontal or heavily involved
(Forgot to mention it but I also think 2 months = too fast for a huge gift like that gown)
--how dependent are you on dancing and nightclubs (alcohol?) for establishing connection
--how often do women seem to be interested and get involved only to start pulling away
--what could you do differentlly, so you're conducting a new relationship in an entirely new way?

A Fine Romance (Judith Sills, PhD) says a lot about pacing. You deserve a healthy relationship that will be real and grow in reality and at a realistic pace. I hate to see you repetitively hurt. So it's time to start not repeating your own themes. Maybe you pressure a little too hard...and that's about pacing too. Under THAT is the anxiety of being alone forevermore and having nobody notice the ol' dude propped up in the corner, and that's the human condition, my dear.

WE ALL FEAR THAT, IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. So we can still hold on to ourselves and each other and find healthy community and keep growing and learning this stuff. It's never too late!! I'm 55 and have made more progress in understanding my relationship patterns in the last five years than in the previous 20.

A sense of ease to you, Easy...

Hopalong

[Hopalong]

Hey Easy,
I'm not picking on you, I promise. But familiar little bells were ringing, so I looked at your post from just six weeks ago:

I am seeing someone who matters to me a great deal. She is really wonderful but at the same time, anxious about moving forward. My course is slow and steady

She was anxious about pace back then. You wanted to be slow and steady but now you're angry that the programme you had in mind has detours and isn't meeting your demands. (And they do sound like demands.) Something's driving your own pace, and I think it's this very important piece from another of your old posts, a few months ago:

I grew up in a stifled,controlled and brutally regulated atmosphere - lots of rules and blaming and shaming.. No love just expectations and demands

Easy...you're right, it's not easy. But I honestly, from my head to my toes including my brain and especially my heart, think the answers for you lie in therapy. Picking appropriate partners who want a serious relationship is only one piece...

But there's a much bigger piece that underlies everything. I think entering a trusting relationship with a good therapist who can help you discover how much of that childhood atmosphere you have internalized into your own way of approaching women...

is probably the most important relationship you need to have right now.

And you can do it. It's never too late to unravel and then knit something newer and happier.

Why not do something amazing like that that will make your next 50 years so much happier than the first? You deserve that.

Hops

[Its not Easy]

Hopalong I am amazed that you read into my posts what is not there.
Your interpretations are colored by your own perspectives.
I have made no demands of J50 and please do not misrepresent my behavior again.

Your posts are not very helpful and you tend to sermonize quite a lot. It is a tad irritating.

[Brigid]

Its not easy,

Not inviting me to her 50th birthday celebration to appease her 23 year old daughter is as pathetic as it is co-dependent. Mom ''Needs" her daughter's approval and is unwilling to go against her daughters wishes.

This is exactly why I chose not to date men who did not have children.  You can't understand the importance those children have in your life--no matter how old they are.  My kids are 21 and 17 and I chose not to introduce my bf to them except in a very casual sense until we had been in a relationship for 8 months and I knew that it was going to be a lasting relationship.  Even adult children can be affected negatively by a revolving door of relationships of their parent.  Psychologists are very definite on this point.

You did not say how long this woman had been divorced, but she may have had negative experiences in the past by becoming involved too quickly and became frightened when she saw it happening again.  Being together for 2 months is nothing and you need much more time than that to get to know someone and determine if it could be a lasting relationship.  I see the dress as a very inappropriate gift for a relationship this new as well.  How could you possibly know her tastes and desires in clothing--and you picked a gift that suits your interests and perhaps not hers--so who is the gift for?

I agree with Hoppy that you need to examine how you "do" relationships.  Why is slowing down such a problem?  Sorry to be so harsh, but I would definitely be pulling back at this stage too if I were she.

Brigid

[Jona]

I am afraid I am going to have to agree with the other posters who feel that two months is too soon for exclusivity.  I think you will find that women in their 50's will want and maybe even demand that things go slower than that.  

When I was dating in my 50's I never agreed to exclusivity and a committed relationship at the two month mark.  A couple of men pressed for it and I ended up dropping them like hot rocks.  I didn't even know them yet.  One of these men made me feel absolutely smothered.  It was like he wanted to wrap things up quickly so he could relax.  At the time I was heating my house with a wood stove and I mentioned to him that I was low on wood and would have to get some more before the winter was over.  The next day when I came home from work there was a huge pile of wood rounds in my driveway.  I absolutely flipped.  It was too, too much and at the time we had only been out on a few dates.  When I dropped him three months later, he threw it in my face that he had bought me wood.  I informed him that he had not bought me.

I think you need to be dating a lot of different women.  If you do that, you won't feel the need to wrap any of them up so fast.  You may be coming across to women as being desperate and that is a big red flag.

Also, I would never introduce a man I was dating to my family in the early days.

I think you will find women in their 50's much more cautious than those in their 20's.  Many women in their 50's have been burned bad in the past and they do not want to repeat those mistakes.