Why did you take it?

[Simon46]

I have lately read several posts basically asking the question “Why do you take it?” Why not stand up for yourself instead of being the victim.

I recall a while back telling my therapist about the time my father decided to sit me down and “talk.” Hidden agenda - to “straighten me out” and thus make himself feel better. He was drinking at the time, and it started out as a father/son having a scotch together. As he continued to talk the tone of his conversation got just a little harder and harsher as he went on. It soon turned to “advice” about how I should “Let my kids know who was the boss” How I should “take control now or I would just get run over as they got older” and on and on. All of this was completely unsolicited and I was deferring and letting him guide the conversation, as I had been trained to do. After a while I was being dressed down, and told how inadequate I was, how I should do better, how crappy my life was, etc.

Now all of this is old news to most of you – I have heard this attitude my whole life and it seems to get worse as he gets older.

Now for the good part. I am telling this story to my therapist. I tell her how secretly furious I was, how demeaned I felt, how much I hated him doing that to me and how bad it made me feel. How much I hated having to sit there in that chair and hear all this stuff from him. I will never forget her question that blew all my circuits.

She asked “How old were you at the time?”

About 40.  (Long Pause)

“…Why did you take it?... Why didn’t you just get up and leave?” You were a grown man, right?  Could he stop you?  (Long Pause – Uhhh…Ummm…Sound of my circuits blowing)

This question dumbfounded me.  It seems so obvious now.  It wasn’t until later that I realized that the answer was a deep down “I thought I had to.” I actually *did* have to take it as a 7 year old, or the punishment was severe. But, over my lifetime I had been systematically programmed to believe that I had to “take it” when (as a 40 year old man) I did not at all. The same behavior that insured my survival as a kid was now hurting me and was actually an inappropriate response for an adult. This was quite a revelation to me at the time, to realize that I had a choice. It had literally never occurred to me before.

[Acappella]

Hi Simon,

Long Pause – Uhhh…Ummm…Sound of my circuits blowing...

    great visual! if the emoticon only had animated smoke coming from their ears it would be just like good therapy, eh?    

I agree about the empowerment of realizing there are options.  We use outdated blueprints and flight patterns cause well gee go with what ya know right?

AND a circuit blower for me was also realizing that having the tools to follow through with the choice (seeking alternatives to fill a need for example) is also an issue AND the process of making that choice and getting the tools can take much longer than just choosing ah say coffee at Starbucks - a connotation with which I feel the word choice (trendy word for the last decade or so) is too often linked.   It is a choice...simple as that! Chose Life! is a slogan I saw on tee shirts for a while (not an abortion issue reference) like Nike "just do it" Ha!

For example, making that choice of walking away from my mother was close to impossible as a child and has been easier as an adult - I've done it in fact!  With my husband I find the choice more difficult as we are entangled with finances and dreams and defining love and loyalty etc. and some people have children and so it is a process that involves many many choices, revamping ones menus (circuits included), and unlearning and relearning new skills - I can chose to fly and yet without instruction it aint likely to go well though the potential for freedom is great.   As a young adult I had no idea people were instructed in life I thought their abilities just hatched like from an egg without incubation even (yes and isolated only child I was). I didn't know it was a need or an option and when I realized it I still had no idea about how to get instruction.

Just last night i found out my husband had his paycheck garnished for back taxes he owed before we met.  He deposited the paycheck and never said a word..just let me discover it when I saw the on line statement.  He knew for a week the check would be one quarter of what it was supposed to be and knew about the debt for years.  Now our rent check may bounce and I was scheduled to take a class next week as a means for getting work and for which I do not have the money now.   He failed to make payments on his car (though there was money in the bank to do so), hid the evidence and now we have one car in an area where there is very little public transportation.  I am starting to research bankruptcy and divorce - figuring out my options, choices etc is exhausting.  

Ok, so ya hit a raw exposed nerve.

[write]

there are other consequences too of 'not taking it' any more.
When I ended my relationship with my father ( after years of trying to make things right )  he took my siblings and other extended family with him and they still refuse to rebuild a relationship with me.

Ironically the lack of extended family support is now a factor in me staying with my N-husband.

I realise now that my parents, in acting out their rage and inadequacy upon their small children, ruined our lives for a long time to come, maybe permanently? they trained us not only to accept their unreasonable behaviour but the unreasonable behaviour of others. That's why we tolerate behaviours other people just would not take, we were conditioned to it and have to unlearn that conditionning which means taking apart our whole beliefs and values.

[CC]

Simon, thanks for starting this inspiring and encouraging post!!! I am so glad you had that "ah - HA!" experience at the therapist.  Sometimes the simplist concepts can throw our eyes wide open to make different choices for the future.  I am going to borrow that concept, if you don't mind.  Just like that phrase I like, "if it sucks longer than an hour.." in fact, I think I'm going to change my signature to include that.

Accapella dear, you'd better get out of that relationship as soon as you can.  I know you've been talking about it, but now you've shared this new secret... I am wondering what the hell else he is going to pull out of his trick bag to manipulate you into staying...it is clear to me now that you are making the right choice.  Don't let him make this garnishment your problem!!!

[seeker]

Hi Simon,

I just wanted to thank you for sharing such a raw (and recognizable!) moment with us.  I laughed, cringed, gritted my teeth, turned red, and laughed again.  It's such a familiar moment.

There's a time when any individual needs to cut the umbilical cord with their parents.  Well-adjusted parents know this and expect it to happen.  Ns seem to want to keep the strings attached and stay one-up on their kids.  Even when we want to break free, they seem to be able to give the string a nice "twang" to get us to snap back to their side.

One thing that strikes me over and over again is that Ns (being essentially overgrown children) see real children as competitors to keep down, ignore, use, or anything except building a real relationship where they are on the same side that serves BOTH parties.  This seems well illustrated in your father's ramblings--the essence of power-over positioning.  It may even be a not-so-veiled attempt to express his resentment that you may be doing a better job of parenting and he knows it.  The ol' don't-do-it better-than-me line.

I'm still working on taking a machete to my umbilical cord which serves no one anymore.  Thanks again for sharing.  The next time I'm being "corrected" I'll ask myself how old I am! S.

[write]

even my relatively happy/ normal-family friends, their parents seem to play a bigger part in their lives than they like at times, and they interfere, especially with grandchildren.
There's a lot of inter-dependency between generations in most cultures.

[Acappella]

Simon,
are you free/more free of your father's ambushes (or the impact) since your delightfully described epiphany?  How do your choices manifest day to day or should I say encounter to encounter?

Are you taking a hatchet to the umbilical cord (like that metaphor Seeker) or snipping away at it?  Both?

My mom kept mine LITTERALLY in a little wooden box for decades.    When I told this to my then therapist years ago she noted how vulnerable and frightened of loosing me my mother must have been.  That was a circuit breaker for me too as it was a primal and I found creepy, secretive distorted way of expressing her vulnerability AND the therapist was right.

Has your choice making been a process?  Taken longer than you initially thought/hoped or was it faster than you'ld feared?

[Acappella]

write,

Ironically the lack of extended family support is now a factor in me staying with my N-husband.

I believe that is a very real obstacle write and one I am working through myself too.  

When domestic abuse (limited to physical only though) first got so much attention there were many advisors who told people in those situations "run, run now!" and while in some cases that is the only option I also heard a few people in that field urge the importance of getting a support network FIRST and preparing for departure whenever possible.  That is part of learning to care for my needs!  

I hear so much about how vital family is and family values and on and on and yet in actuality sometimes it isn't until one is totally without a family that I believe we really understand the value of families, genetic, extended and communal (like this forum).

Making our own extended families is one of the ways that we adults individuate from our roots and evolve even and especially as Seeker noted from families healthier than ours.  To me, this forum is a tentative, virtual first step towards building a real time extended family with whom to evolve (into what ironically future generations will likely look back on as no longer functional.    ).

I'll be posting more about the process of getting out at the "what helps" portion of this forum.  read ya there i hope so we can support one another.

[Acappella]

Hi CC,

thank you for your encouragement.  I am getting out of this relationship as soon as I can - and that is part of my point - that real sustained change takes time and patience with the process is part of making choices.  I have been talking about it AND doing things too.  Talking about it is part of the doing also.  Learning HOW "not to take it" and what to take in "its" place (alternative choices) and to leave in a way that is responsive to my needs rather than reactive to his issues is my goal - I am working towards it also in some ways that I don't feel enough privacy here to communicate.   And I believe you wrote in one of your posts that you believe there are degrees and variations of Nism - I am just noting (lamenting too) that those shades of gray are part of making choices about staying and going and when.

I like your "if it sucks..." approach (or reproach   ) in some instances and in others it just isn't the tool for me.  Sometimes facing what sucks (facing not enduring it) is where I feel I learn what I've been hiding from - I may still want to hide AND I'll do so making a conscious choice of what I am leaving (when time and resources allow - when not, the good ole subconscious is always there and ready and the suck/no suck rule is especially effective.   )

[write]

What you say is right Acapella, and I'm sure many women who flee domestic violence in haste find themselves returning for practical reasons, then feeling even more disempowered: setting up a support system first makes a lot of sense.

If you live with a successful narcissist who has an adoring fan-club who buy into his projected charming self and dismiss unreasonable behaviour as eccentric or inevitable in a genius etc it's hard to set up that support system too.

People don't believe it can be that bad, or they can't accept the reality of their idealised friend...I just about cannot bear to discuss it with other people who think they know him better than I do and try to give hints on how I can keep him happy!

Our own families or closest friends are often the worst support system too: they have all been raised to keep the same image alive, and not to tell or even see things how they really are.

In trying to straighten things out you lose over and over again: and this is too painful for many people. I found myself clinging to N in many ways because he is all the unbroken continuity I have. But I have let go of the idea that it's love.

There's a poem

Defining the problem:


I can't forgive you. Even if I could,

You wouldn't pardon me for seeing through you

And yet I cannot cure myself of love

For what I thought you were before I knew you.



I wonder if the poet Wendy Cope knew any narcissists?!

[seeker]

Hello Write (and all)

I don't know, but I think the media has been picking up a bit more (maybe only a bit) on the fact that abuse has no boundaries.  Look at the OJ situation (not the trial, but events leading up to Nicole leaving...), look at the Menendez Bros., Michael Jackson???, etc.  Yow.  In fact, the description of your husband and the sock thing reminded me of OJ.  

No one can really make the judgment call of the person on the front lines wherever they may be--but you might want to check out a book called The Golden Ghetto by Jessie O'Neill.  I find the description of the book a bit misleading--it isn't solely about how people think about money.  It's really about the transformative power of having LOTS of it and how it affects relationships.  The dysfunctionality of some extremely wealthy families is described with excruciating anecdotes.  

My first strategy with any problem is to clobber it with a book!   At least you might find some small amount of validation for a person in your circumstances.  I believe the author also has some resources listed that you might turn to (I read it a long while ago, so don't remember if this is so or not).  

Hope this helps. S.

[Simon46]

Hi Acapella and everyone:

Yes, my choice making in my relationship with my father has been quite a process, and I have not had any meaningful interaction with him for about a year or more.  I did very deliberately make the decision to tell him how I felt about it all (not just the incident in this post, but our lifetime of relationship together) and I told him. It took a tremendous amount of courage at the time, but I knew I had to do it, even knowing it might be the end of the relationship. He responded with a full-force scorched-earth retaliation for what he saw as an attack. He sent nasty emails, threatened, demeaned, dismissed, hit all my soft spots, and did everything that he could to try and regain control of the situation. It did not work, I did not back down, but stood my ground in the most forthright and honest way I knew how.

He finally relented and sent an email apology ending with the phrase “any further communications between us will result in an escalation which I believe neither of us wants.”  So, he wanted to say “I *said* I’m sorry, now leave me alone and don’t bring this up again.”  I contacted him later, and got a few stories about the weather, golf, etc. as if nothing had happened between us. It was quite bizarre, and I immediately thought, “This is pretending, and I simply can’t do it anymore.”  I felt like I had been emotionally raped, and now he wants to say “Hey, I *said* I’m sorry, what more do you want – now drop it”  Now that I have learned a lot more about narcissism,  I understand this strange behavior a lot better, and have come to expect it and not be at all surprised by it. It doesn’t mindfuck me in the same way it used to.

It still consumes a lot more of my emotional energy than I would like, but it all becomes clearer and clearer each day. I know I am moving forward in my understanding. I know that he would not even *try* to have that same conversation with me today because he knows the curtain has been pulled back and I would say with no reservation, “Hey Dad, you are being disrespectful to me and I told you I am no longer willing to let you treat me that way.” He knows this. I have already demonstrated that I am willing to end the relationship (not as a threat but as a way to take care of me), and I am. Once you get to that point in your heart, you are no longer easily intimidated.

I am more able to address that part of me deep down that is still hoping that he will come to me one day and express genuine sorrow and show remorse through action, and admit to myself that I will probably never get that. I am beginning to accept that he will probably never talk to me about this in any meaningful way. I am able to begin to let go of my secret desire for a deathbed confession, and am able to realize that most people die as they lived, and that he will probably die one day and that will be that with all of it’s pain and imperfection and ugliness. Period. I am beginning to understand that his death will not solve anything.

As I feel myself moving through a year or two later, I feel my anger and hatred slowly dissipating (because I finally recognized it). I find guilt and shame evaporating a little at a time (because I was able to see it). I am able to understand things that happened to me in the past that used to confuse me.  I find that I can really enjoy life at times and have genuine fun again.

I am able to (sometimes) not take it personally. To realize that it was all about him and his pain, and not really about me at all. To move away from “Why, why, why did you do this to me” and move towards “Oh, I see Why now, and it wasn’t even about me! – Isn’t that ironic!”  I am even able to begin to have some compassion for his side, and to see that if he could act differently, he would, but he can’t. It is crazy for me to expect a dog to act like a fish. He was also abused by his father, who never took responsibility for his actions, never apologized, and then died on him. He has done almost no work on this. He truly is at a loss to understand it and doesn’t know that all his adult children want from him is kindness, love, and respect as human beings, because he was never given that by either one of his parents.

[annabelle]

Part of the reason I took it from my husband was (and Acappella perhaps you did too) because I talked to the wrong people about him.  Told the wrong people about my complaints and asked the wrong people advice about the situation.  Namely, his parents.  Not in detail, but I remember always listening to them when they said, "He's just obsessive compulsive.  But, you have to accomodate that.  In a marriage, you have to accomodate."  The problem was, he was never accomodating to me.  And, it was too too far to accomodate to him, and was never enough - always a new accomodation demand for the littlest things.  And, about hs temper, they probably said something like, yes, he's very passionate.  Or, he's difficult but worth it.  So, the moral of the story is, do not confide in  or seek advice from an N's family or friends.  You'll get a distorted view of the situation, you'll question yourself, and you'll get no validation.  Seek out neutral people or people who know you.  Not the N's supporters.  You don't want people to tell you what you want to hear, insincerely, but you don't want people to tell you what the N wants you to hear either.

[CC]

Dear Simon,

you said:

I am able to (sometimes) not take it personally. To realize that it was all about him and his pain, and not really about me at all. To move away from “Why, why, why did you do this to me” and move towards “Oh, I see Why now, and it wasn’t even about me! – Isn’t that ironic!” I am even able to begin to have some compassion for his side, and to see that if he could act differently, he would, but he can’t. It is crazy for me to expect a dog to act like a fish. He was also abused by his father, who never took responsibility for his actions, never apologized, and then died on him. He has done almost no work on this. He truly is at a loss to understand it and doesn’t know that all his adult children want from him is kindness, love, and respect as human beings, because he was never given that by either one of his parents.

My dear, this is exactly the part that gets me in trouble. You see, I HAVE had the compassion for my N mother for far too long.  I had already gotten past the fact that it wasn't about her trying to hurt me personally, and that she just didn't know any other way to behave.  The problem is, my compassion led to me "taking" it far longer and far more intensely than I ever should have!    They really don't even realize when they are slipping into abuse... and this is a hard stage for some to get to - many here would argue with me and say that there is no way they can't know - but I truly believe they are oblivious because they never learned any other way to survive.  At least, for me it is true because my mother has shown so many efforts of "trying" to change and just can't help herself.  Since our last confrontation after Thanksgiving, she has truly (and I believe her - remember there are different degrees of N)  attempted to understand her behavior and how it affects me, and has looked into herself (admittedly depressed too - the other night she said "I've turned against myself.. I realize that I am not the wonderful mother I thought I was, and it is a bitter pill to swallow..)

Even as I small point things out as they are happening - she doesn't see them as abusive until I ask her to consider if I had said it to her.  Even then, sometimes she understands, sometimes she doesn't.

The only alternative, sadly - is to distance ourselves.  For Rob and I, this is harder than ever, living in such close proximity to the N parent... but I know for me, the only way to remain protected is simply to not tell her personal things about my life - which for me is next to impossible because I have been so entwined with her for sooooo long!

anyway, just be careful of the compassion as you begin to feel it.  The bottom line is this: even if you feel compassionate about the person inflicting pain on you, and you understand where it comes from... it STILL affects us, and still can hurt us in our hearts, and our subconscious, even though we know in our "heads" that its not real.  I think is it wonderful for you to feel it at the same you are trying to break free.  Many here are not capable of this.  But it can also prevent you from moving forward - I speaketh from experience!!!  

Hugs,  CC

[Simon46]

Hi CC:

I think “oblivious” is an excellent word to describe the narcissistic state of mind. I recall my father telling me a story about watching a father/son team who used to cut his grass. They were out there sweating together, laughing, having some healthy good-natured father/son fun that is possible in any loving trusting healthy relationship. My Dad watched them and could not understand why he could not have this with his children. He was baffled as to why all of his children were “hacked off” at him and wanted to move far away and have little to do with him. He said that it made him wish that he had spent his time doing something else besides raising four children. I can assure you, he has no problem saying this to me. In one way he might enjoy it because he knows it hurts me a little and that makes him feel good. In another way he is oblivious as to how horribly harmful these kinds of statements are to his relationships and to the fact that he has pushed us away with his demeaning, superior attitude.

It is interesting and unusual that your mother has tried to understand her behavior to some degree, and even admitted that maybe she was not the best mother in the universe. My mother still maintains that they were Good Parents and if they made any major mistake it was to do too much for me. I know that there is a lot of pride there that keeps them from admitting mistakes in general, in being vulnerable and less than perfect like all of us lower humans. This attitude is also how I went a lifetime without either parent ever saying “I’m Sorry” about anything.

The narcissist’s actual intent to hurt is a tough question. Take your mothers string of unbelievable letters. I am guessing she doesn’t have a big problem with any of that. At most she might shrug her shoulders and laugh and say “Oh Well.” She probably thinks she is perfectly within her rights and that you deserved that. She feels better, you feel worse. I doubt she is losing much sleep over it, only you are. This is hard for the rational mind to reconcile. It gives me no comfort to know that the narcissistic personality is incapable of feeling empathy, and sees no need to change, but I think there is a lot of truth in it.  

I am under no illusions that things are any different than they ever were – nothing has really changed except my perception of my father and my perception of our family dynamics. The way that my father will interact with me is no different than it has ever been, and he will proudly own that. But I know that I must forever be on guard, or I will be hurt (no different from in the past). Yes, this saddens me and is not the relationship I would like to have. But because my awareness and understanding has changed, I am no longer surprised or confused in the way I was before. Hurt? Yes. I think it is important for all of us to understand that it will always hurt no matter how old we are or how much we “work” on it, or whether our parents are alive or dead. That wound is profound and leaves a scar that will never go away.