STILL showering w/ daughter!!!

[movinon]

Okay, I'm going crazy here!!  He's STILL showering with our 6-year old daughter. SHe just came back from an overnight with him and was somewhat reluctant to say, but he is still doing it despite warnings from therapists and his (friend) lawyer.

I'm really starting to HATE this man.  In his mind, no one can tell GOD (himself) what to do.

I also spoke to my son from a previous marriage about not having visits with him anymore.  I told him that I wanted to protect him from any more harm and that's the reason I was going back to the women's DV services.  I asked if he remembered any abuse when we lived together and he recalled an incident that I didn't even remember.  My screwed-up husband pulled him out of the shower and out of the bathroom by his ear!!  I felt like a knife had gone through my heart. 

I'd like to hear from any of you if it seems like I'm making a big deal out of nothing - especially the males on this thread.  I want to be as balanced as I can, but I've been in the abuse and manipulation cycle for so long, that sometimes I just don't know.

desperately,

movinon

[Hop guest]

My god, Movinon. NO you're not over-reacting!!!!!!!!!!
What he's doing is borderline sexual abuse of a minor!!!!!!!!!!
I pray to heaven not across the borderline.

KEEP FIGHTING TO RIGHT THIS, BECAUSE YOU ARE RIGHT!

MudPup! Longtire! NotEasy! (Who'm I forgetting?) Help her, fellas!

(((((((((Movinon)))))))))  ((((((((((((((((Movinon's precious little girl)))))))))))))))))))))))

Hops

[mudpuppy]

Hi movinon,

I went back over your posts and I'm not really too clear on why you would think you are over reacting. You say he is a sex addict and raped you and hid money from you and trashed your belongings and people you trust tell you he is a sociopath.
Now none of that means he is molesting your daughter, but I don't think you should wait to find out. If he was a perfectly normal guy what he is doing might be out of the ordinary but not necessarily sick. But he's not normal so you have to assume the worst and do everything you can to protect her.
Forget, if you haven't already, any idea of a collaborative diviorce. Not sure what your financial situation is but its cheaper in the long run to get a good lawyer who will make sure he pays you what you are entitled. And a good lawyer will limit his visitation as much as possible. You should compile notes and photos and every kind of documentary evidence you can to use in court. Keeping contemporaneous notes of conversations and events is very helpful and carries a lot of weight in court.
Seems like someone told you on another thread that Ns are very good in court. Perhaps some are but I believe most do very poorly when confronted with a mountain of evidence. They do well when we play on their field, and let it become a he said/she said narrative. If they have to answer for bizarre e-mails and letters and witnessed misbehaviors then their narrative of lies comes crashing down around them. That is why you need a competent attorney and even more importantly you need to have the instinct to crush him. No second guessing yourself or moments of sympathy when he starts whimpering. As much as possible, can the hatred and rage and just become an emotionless grim mother determined to smash the bug who is threatening your daughter and who treated you like dirt.

I want to be as balanced as I can

Once you have determined that this man is evil and a threat to you and your children you have no moral or legal obligation to be balanced toward him whatsoever, anymore than you should be balanced toward a mad dog.

So are you over reacting? No, not at all. I must admit you have provided only meager information about the jerk but what you have provided is extremely creepy and it sounds as though he should not only be divorced but tossed in state prison for a good long time as well.

mudpup

[mudpuppy]

Hi again movinon,

Somehow, when I made that last post I missed the part about him ADMITTING to raping you, hitting you, holding you hostage and strolling about in front of the kids with a shotgun threatening to shoot himself. 
Not only would I not say you are over reacting, it seems to me it would be rather hard to over react to this psycho.
Is he physically threatening you at this point? If he is be very careful about a restraining order. They seem to set these kind of whackos off and they are of no value if they are intent on doing something bad.
What is this jerks arrest record if any?

mud

[movinon]

Mud,

He has NO arrest record.  By all outside accounts, he's a fine, upstanding man in therapy helping other men recover and get in touch with their emotions (bs,bs,bs!!!!)  He's got a following!!!  I called the police on him once and they told him to go sleep it off at a neighbor's house (after he slammed my ankle repeatedly in the door).  As soon as the police drove off, he was back. He is not physically threatening me, but I have not dropped the bomb on him yet that he cannot have visits with my son or his daughter as often as he has been.  My father just died 2 weeks ago and I suspect he thinks I've just been in mourning. (He came around the funeral being a big drama queen).

On the side of evidence, I'm afraid I only have friends, neighbors, and relatives that could corroborate his "wierdness."  WE have been to numerous therapists that I'm hoping will also validate that he admitted to some of these things in their offices.  My adult daughter, who lived with him for 7 years HATES him and I know can attest to LOTS of things he has done, but do you think this will hold water?

It will all come to a head after Monday when I meet with my lawyer.

Marta - Just read your post.  Talk about re-victimizing the victims!  I was thinking along the lines of PROVING he abused my older kids (then why wouldn't he abuse the younger one?)  As I have been reading, a person who is a batterer is way more likely to be a sexual abuser.  If I can give a good argument for battering (especially the children), then hopefully the evaluators will use that in the sexual abuse posibility determination.

Thanks for the support and validation.

[portia as guest]

Hi Movinon

He's STILL showering with our 6-year old daughter. SHe just came back from an overnight with him and was somewhat reluctant to say,

I don't know the answer to this, but I'd like to ask it:

What would happen if your daughter told the above to a teacher at school? Or a social worker, the police etc etc.

If she's telling you this, reluctantly, what isn't she telling you?

Maybe you can solve this through child protection of some sort, depends where you are, how the system works?

Take care. She needs a loving mom like you. (((movinon)))

[mudpuppy]

Hi movinon,

Let me just say I have no experience in family court, only civil courts where you have the options of jury trials and the standards of evidence may be different.
Having said that however, the witnesses and evidence that hold water are the ones who have credibility. That is why level headed, unemotional testimony and contemporaneous notes are so important. They demonstrate credibility. Friend's and neighbor's testimony absolutely will hold water if they have been eyewitnesses to his insanity, especially if they have no ax to grind. If your adult daughter is calm and unemotional I am sure her testimony will carry considerable weight.
I'm not sure on the testimony of therapists. Presumably it is usually covered by therapist-client privelege, with possibly some leeway if criminal behavior is involved. Joint therapy is even more complicated. A lawyer can tell you about that.
Any police reports are useful as well, whether he was arrested or not.
If your attorney is sharp you have nothing to fear from his followers or his reputation. They can't testify to what has actually gone on in your home, only eyewitnesses can. And your lawyer's job will be to make him look like a hypocrite and phony so that his lilly white facade is shown to be just a ploy to cover his real personality.
There is no guarantee you won't get a lousy judge or your lawyer won't screw it up but if we only did what we had a guarantee for we would still be sitting in our cribs sucking our thumbs. Just never forget that despite his bravado, he will be scared to death through this whole thing of losing face and just plain losing. As scared as you may be never forget he is more scared. Just stay on offense and make him squirm. They can't win on defense, because there is no defense for their behavior.

I'm sorry to hear about your father. That must be doubly tough with all this going on.

BTW, I'm a little slow sometimes; could you go through once more just how many kids are involved, how old and who their parents are. Your six year old daughter is the only one he is the parent of, correct?
God bless and be careful.

mud

[movinon]

Mud - Now I'm feeling fearful of putting even more on here.  The way he "watched-over" things and was so hyper-vigilant still freaks me out.  If I put more details, he may get a jump on things if he sees this board.  I know I've already given a lot of info., but I figure he lives in denial and can figure it's not him being talked about.

Oh, what the hell!  He could go back and read my posts and know it's me by the language I use.  The 6 yo is his and I have a 13 and 18 yo from my previous marriage.  My 18 yo is EXTREMELY reliable and stable - she will be the validictorian when she finishes high school this year and is a MODEL citizen.  She lives in another state with her dad and step-mom (moved out a couple of years ago b/c of the chaos). 

One other thing I wanted to mention is that I KNOW he will say it was a mutually abusive relationship because I FOUGHT BACK.  I say back b/c he always started the violence and I didn't run, I hit back.  In retrospect, I can see all the things I SHOULD have done, but I can't change that now.  Any advice there?

[mudpuppy]

Hi again movinon,

You haven't said anything on here that would give him any advantage when you do go to court so don't worry about it. Just never say anything untrue about him and you have nothing to worry about. In thre future just use a little less detail about what you plan on doing if it would make you feel more comfortable. The main thing you need to guard against would probably be him hiding assets.

One other thing I wanted to mention is that I KNOW he will say it was a mutually abusive relationship because I FOUGHT BACK.  I say back b/c he always started the violence and I didn't run, I hit back.  In retrospect, I can see all the things I SHOULD have done, but I can't change that now.  Any advice there?

Sure, just say exactly what you just said. If you can establish that he is an unbalanced nut then it seems perfectly reasonable for you to defend yourself. Did he ever file any police reports on you?
If you have a half way decent judge and lawyer then 90% of the battle is being the more credible party. Make sure you get a lawyer who knows the family court judges in your jurisdiction so you know who to disqualify (assuming your state allows you a free disqualification) and who to accept. Experienced lawyers know who to use based on their exposure to them in the past. Some judges are absolutely miserable in their biases either against women or for them; unfortunately there are probably more of the former than the latter.
Hope this helps a little.

mud

PS. Jacmac posted after I wrote my reply and I just want to say I agree with everything she says. Unfortunately if you want to divorce the bum you have to enter the legal system. the good thing is when they persist in lying despite the mountain of evidence they lose all credibility. So do exactly what she said, especially the part about wrting down past occurrences. Legal proceedings take some time, and your memory will fade. I too would be leery of involving social services regarding your kids. Once you are in court might be a better time. Same for filing any police reports now. If you are about to file legal papers on him, anything like a police report right before you do looks like a legal maneuver not a real grievance. Talk to your lawyer about it.
One other thing, in light of his 'I'm gonna shoot myself' drama with the shotgun, I think you should very seriously consider finding a different place to live at least temporarily after you file in court. Probably he won't do anything but its better to be excessively safe than sorry. I don't say that to scare you........well maybe I do a little, because frankly this guy sounds kind of scary.

[Hopalong]

Hey Movinon,

I know your ex is one twisted dude, and I agree you need to be very cautious.

But don't be discouraged. You're reading some very pessimistic news about the legal system, and how this could be a battle that sounds like you have to be a strategic genius and always assume the worst about every player involved.

I agree with MudPup that all you need is honesty and very thorough documentation. And a good lawyer you trust (try calling a women's shelter and asking them who the very best advocate for child abuse issues is).

As to all the rest--just take on the things you can control. If you try to personally overcome every possible thing that could go wrong, you might get too discouraged to take up the fight.

But you CAN do this. You can save your daughter and when it's all over you're going to look back and know it is the greatest thing you have ever done.

Start with finding the lawyer. Write up your documentation and get all the evidence you can. But get to a lawyer NEXT WEEK, okay?

One step at a time.

I am so impressed with you!!!! Don't let our loud cheering and floods of cautions discourage you though! We're noisy because we're on your side!!!

((((((((((Movinon)))))))))

Hopalong

[movinon]

Wow,Thanks Hops - I felt a surge of warm energy in your post.  It's amazing how I need that validation that he's as bad as he is. I will have a sawyer and a definate path by next week.

Mud - He's never called the police on me - that would be too insulting to his great big ego.  I hear you say the battle will be to appear more credible and that is what I am scared about b/c he is so crafty.

Jac - I will be "interviewing" people this weekend to help me recall info. that I may have forgotten about.  The info gathering begins...(again)

Portia and Sugarre - I will talk to my lawyer before taking any more action that might involve CPS - thanks for the advice.

Movinon

[anon]

In some places, the law is  if you tell your lawyer information that leads him to believe a child is in danger, he is obligated by law to report the information to children's services.

[Its not Easy]

Oh my God! This is not OK! Not even close.
Talk about boundary violation  !!
You do need to report this to a school counselor or a nurse practitioner or a cop or a Family doctor. Just talk to ALL of them and hope that ONE of them calls it in..
Someone who is legally obligated to report suspected abuse.
The showering with an opposite sex minor is right up at the edge of sexual abuse (legally) and way past the line psychologically.

I am appalled.
Not easy.

[mudpuppy]

movinon,
If you get your ducks in a row and assemble evidence that is irrefutable, whether testimony or documentary, then you have noting to fear of his craftiness. These people thrive in the regular world because they can lie and slander and manipulate. But in court he can't just make an unfounded accusation, he has to have evidence. And, as jacmac or someone said it is imperative that your lawyer understands Ns. This will make it easier to elicit the kind of crazy responses these weirdos are prone to when the right buttons are pushed.
It won't be easy or fun, but you have no choice. Your daughter needs your protection. When you get backed into a corner by a nut like this you have to fight, but if you keep your wits about you, develop a strategy and stick with it you have a good chance to kick his head in. You'll undoubtedly lose a battle here and there but in the end if you have perserverancel you'll win the war.
Take care and don't worry. The truth has a way of eventually coming to the surface no matter how long these creeps try to suppress it.

mud

[mudpuppy]

One more thing movinon,

Check out OR's latest post on her 'What would you think of this comment' thread if you're looking for a little encouragement.
She married a nutjob pretty similar to yours, right down to the threats with a gun thing.
It can be done if you're methodical and stay on top of things.
Good luck.

mudpup