Author Topic: conflict  (Read 5868 times)

Brigid

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Re: conflict
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2006, 08:30:05 PM »
Good job, mum  :D (do I sound like I'm talking to one of my kids??)  You should be very proud of yourself.

You have inspired me yet again.

Brigid

mum

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Re: conflict
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2006, 09:28:28 PM »
Thanks for the congrats, but I don't feel particularly vindicated or proud. I feel bad for the guy, bad for me, and well, it's just a sorry situation. But it is not the end of the world (try telling me that at 3 am this morning...I lost my "everything" keys,  set my own burglar alarm off, my daughter had nightmares....negative begets negative...that's for sure) and nothing is so catastrophic as to lose another night of sleep over it. Heck , I am almost embarrassed for whining at all, what with Movinon and Mia and some others going through the circles of hell lately..
At my age I cannot handle another night like that, and I won't. I have been having some irregular heart rhythms and last night I felt like my heart was jumping out of my chest....stress can do amazing things. (going for an echocardiogram soon.  Nothing serious, really, though.)

Funny thing about last night though, that I never expected as a by product:
I got a concrete sense of what my dying mother's life has been like for the last few years. She has severe anxiety on top of the myriad of physical issues she has (actually because of), and last night I felt what it must be like to have such a horrible, gripping, never let up anxiety. I could not shake it for the life of me, for hours on end. It became everything: my being alone and apart from my husband and siblings still, my life being so uncertain for so long...but mostly that damn rock!!!  I felt such a sadness for my mom last night. She is heavily medicated and when lucid, can barely speak anymore (stroke damage). She says she is in pergatory (not the ski area).

The other thing was my d's nightmares. Apparently I was being murdered  in a series of dreams over and over in front of her, and then they (a Barbie/elf?) went after her and stabbed her hip. She said she felt the blood. She was so terrified, and came running into my room... and of course scared me too. I was happy to be able to comfort her...as I'm sure those parents of teenagers here know...it's few and far between nowadays...take it where you can get it!
But today we talked about it and concluded it was her seeing me "victimized" yesterday, and then repeatedly by her dad (which we acknowledged indirectly). It's all very interesting to me. Where is Freud when you need him, eh???


Anyway, the whole thing was meant to happen for me to give me another opportunity to practice using my voice. It happened for a reason for him to: well, I don't know what, but trying to be untruthful already bit him in the butt with the supplier....well, it's a growth opportunity for everyone. (How the heck was I suppose to know he was trying to lie...funny how I innocently enough bumbled it up for him to return the stuff.)

I still am not sure when he will have this figured out. He put in the sod today and it looks fantastic...so he's not a total loss.
I believe this will work out ok.

There you go again Bean, posting while I'm writing....thanks, you guys must know me....I need to refrain from feeling bad.


Hopalong

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Re: conflict
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2006, 10:01:44 PM »
Mum!

You rock! Pun intended!
Congratulations.
I wonder if it hit so hard because the aesthetic is one piece of your identity that has always WORKED. Your eye for beauty cannot be stolen by an N or anyone else. So I wonder if it was doubly threatening because of that? Your acute sense of beauty is a quiet thing but actually represents one of your greatest powers, I'm guessing. So if somebody threatens that...or even accidentally...I can imagine how that would set off huge anxiety.

And I know panic attacks. They are clammy, to the core.
I am grateful for you describing the isolation of that sick-feeling fear.
And your heart? I understand...I used to go to the ER repeatedly as a young woman because the symptoms were so terrifying. I hope you have Rx and a T who really understands panic disorder, because it really can be throttled waaaaaaay down... for me, Pema Chodron's When Things Fall Apart was SUCH an eye opener. One of the first things I ever read that put the fear and a way of passing through it in spiritual language, instead of just leaving me with my "diagnosis" of anxiety.

-----Now I want to talk about me for a minute. I knew I'd feel this way when I got home, and driving home I felt a spurt of self-dislike. What I'd like to say is that "entertainment" is a really ugly word to use about the board conflict, when there are real hearts, real individuals (whom I care about and MISS--ahem P and P!)--and real pain involved. I want to apologize to everyone for saying that word.
    I'm also going to leave it posted because in some piece of me that has been ONE reason I've been interested in reading those threads. Or there's some truth in it I want to learn from. In a little way I feel some weird kind of bravado, as though I'm trotting down Main Street in my knickers.
    I think it has something to do with really, really wanting to admit to and own my own dark side (I think my recent rage--stored up for 50 years--at very elderly NMom has brought it on). In a paradoxical way, though I have to struggle through self-dislike on the way, I think owning the bits of ugliness inside is part of the path to self-love. That concept I've struggled with all my life because I was steeped in guilt like a teabag.
    I'm sorry if I'm not making a whole lot of sense...but thank you all for letting me kind of process that thought out loud. It's a bit naked, but I am trying to wind up on the path of love.
    I'm stumbling and bumbling. I just have some sort of intuition that this is ... mostly anyway ... okay.

Thanks, and if I hurt anyone's feelings, please PM me so I can tell you I'm sorry.
Hops

« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 10:11:44 PM by Hopalong »
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Hopalong

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Re: conflict
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2006, 11:49:23 PM »
Honestly, I don't know, Jac.
I stuffed my anger for 50 years.
Now and then I did get angry but for the most part, deep inside, I feel anger is poison.

The few times I've let it fly, the guilt afterward made me literally sick. (I know that stuffing it, instead of stating it reasonably like you've suggested, makes it like steam in a kettle and the words are more scalding when they finally do come out.)

The way I used to express it was more like, (forgive me Marta I don't mean this cruelly)...something like the kind of voice I hear in Marta's pain and fury. I think there's fear there, and the lecturing tone that got others' teeth gritted really sounded like an attempt to push away. Somehow when people get super-rational or hotly cold (Red Type) I get nervous. (Likewise, when you're all emotional glop like I can be, that's not helpful either.)

I just dunno about anger. It's a huge mystery to me that I really don't want to solve. The world shows me anger every day. We slaughter each other.

I do not know how to separate the meek gentle Jesus image I loved as a child from some healthy model of anger (even though I know he dumped over the moneychangers' table and even though I'm no longer lucky enough to have that simple faith).

I guess when I say I want to own my dark side, I mean I want to own up to the spurts of unkind thought or callousness that can appear. Not so much that I want to vent anger at someone else. I really don't. In fact I'm feeling more love in my heart, more steadily, for more people, than I ever have before.

I just think the lesson I'm in now includes a feeling that I just want to look at myself and see what is really there. And then love it. (Not instead of loving others. Just bringing myself into the circle of what deserves love, instead of making myself stand outside it as I have for too long. Make sense?)

I think if I can do that, even with detours through mud (no offense, Mud)...I will find a way to being more whole.

Lord, I know that's rambling and probably sounds very unfocused. These are fairly new thoughts for me so they'll likely be pretty amorphous for a while.

thanks for asking...that's good of you Jac.

Hops
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Hopalong

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Re: conflict
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2006, 11:51:56 PM »
PS--Mum, please say if you want me to take this yammering off to another thread.

Glad to if you want.

Hops
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Hopalong

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Re: conflict
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2006, 08:13:27 AM »
Quote
Me: the lecturing tone that got others' teeth gritted really sounded like an attempt to push away..
Jac: Who's anger made you grit your teeth in fear?
Quote

Hi Jac, Thank you for the close reading and for sharing what a horrendous, brutal childhood you had, and how it left its teeth in you. I admire you for owning your own anger, admitting it, then dealing. Wow. I know you're right that stuffing it all backfires too...so it's the moderate way I am aiming for.

I think the lecturing tone I mention above is my projection about my mother's lecturing, advice, counsel, opinion, prodding, noodging, reminding, repeating. There was something obsessive and incessant about her communications about what is right and wrong and how to be good that drove me nuts (and she was never violent, nor was Dad). The one who made me fear was my brother, an intimidating bully who tormented me persistently.

I fear anger because of lack of "practicing" it...which I'm working on now in small ways. Like my Nfriend at work was laughing at me the other day (predicting I would mindlessly repeat an old pattern) when I was telling him about some serious feelings and I stopped him and said I feel disrespected when you laugh at me and I don't like it! I kept telling him I wasn't wanting advice and he kept pushing and I kept holding my boundaries. Later I apologized to him for the defensiveness piece and gave him the benefit of the doubt, saying, I'm sure your laughter wasn't intended as mockery. And he said no no, it wasn't. It was cllumsy encounter, but good practice in trying to figure out which piece of something belongs to whom and owning what you can without too much.

I've had different styles of anger in my life, at different stages of development I guess. Never went to violence because I was lucky enough not to have violent parents, and my brother's intimidation was more psychological than physical (plenty of minor things like arm-twisting, hair pulling, but mostly it was pure threat and dominance).

Quote
By rejecting that part of myself (hating that part of myself) I was hating myself.  The anger/hurt was a part of myself I had to heal.  The guilt was just punishing me, like me mother and father did, for having feelings, instead now I had taken over the job for them.
--YES.

Must rally for work...

Hops

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Re: conflict
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2006, 09:05:02 AM »
Has a twist Is straight
Manipulates the truth Seeks the relief of honest self-expression
Has a hidden agenda Wants to discover the truth
Attacks to hurt Expresses the hurt and anger
Blames and proves "guilt" Confronts 
Is a weapon Is a tool
Seeks to discredit the other as a person Seeks to expose
Has no accountability Demands accountability
Hides behind innocence Chooses not to hide
Is righteously superior Is adamant
Assumes another's motives Never assumes motives
Needs a villain Rejects villains
Refuses to claim anything Claims its part
Seeks to punish Determines consequences for itself
Uses information to make a case against the other Uses information for clarity/understanding
Fears exposure Values exposure
Leads to abuse Leads to intimacy
Alienates and violates Liberates
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 05:52:15 PM by voicel2 »

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Re: conflict
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2006, 09:08:22 AM »
Sorry, couldn't format that table right.
Anway, it's better viewed at the link: http://www.mtoomey.com/violating_liberating.html

It's about the differences between violating anger (the first phrase) vs. liberating anger (the next phrase).

Seemed apropos to what we've been talking about. The author concludes:
Because anger has such force and potential for violence, it needs to be treated with great discipline and respect. Uncontrolled anger is dangerous and we recognize that even if we don't know how to control it. Unaddressed and unexpressed anger is also dangerous, and we tend not to realize that.

This is a challenging but interesting and important area for me to learn in.

Thanks,
Hops
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 05:52:59 PM by voicel2 »

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Re: conflict
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2006, 09:22:03 AM »
PS Jac,
Your story shocked and moved me so much I didn't know what to say to it.
But I'll say this, not only are you no monster, but it is inspiring to me to read your wisdom, knowing even more clearly now what hell and hard places you had to pass through to acquire it.

The images of your parents battles are horrendous, and I am so sorry you went through that, and more, as a child. It's more hurt than I even understand...and here you are, dispensing comfort to someone who never once got hit with a fist.

Thank you, Jac. For your story and your engaging with such honesty...
You look at an anger and it's no longer the elephant in the general living room.
You do make it easier for me to think about it because I can think, if Jac survived what she survived and came out with a good mind and a caring heart and has learned to love herself...ANYONE CAN.

Thanks for telling that story, which I imagine was not easy at all.

(((Jac)))

Hopalong
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 05:53:40 PM by voicel2 »

mum

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Re: conflict
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2006, 10:20:45 AM »
Hops, I don't mind at all, that this thread is taking this course. It is very helpful to me, too.

I think the Pema Chodron book you cite has a lot  in it about self acceptance, but maybe "Start Where You Are" is more focused on that.

As you well know, I have had trouble expressing anger. I was taught as a child that it is unnacceptable to express anger, "Offer it up to God as a sacrifice" is what my mom would say. She had nine kids....she also said "off the ear" when we were whining (which I totally get as a mom now!!)  But imagine my take on that as a six year old!  Suffering and acceptance and spiritual sacrifice is a VERY heady concept, not something a kid can get their head around or find too useful!

What I needed to learn was a healthy way to EXPRESS my anger, but I don't think my parents, products of their time and culture, really knew how to do teach that. They were very spiritual people, but my mom was more dogmatic, Catholic style (thus the guilt over my anger, too) My dad knew how to channel pain and anger, and manifest positive things, but for some reason (maybe because my mom was more present with us) we didn't quite learn what he knew when we were young, and the world was quite a shock for us. As adults we are all very spiritual and pretty good at life and love, but as children,  we just stuffed it...and it's produced some interesting results in all of us.

Anger is poison, but like Jacmac said: when ignored.
"Anger rots the vessel it is carried in." That's for sure!

Jacmac: I think your story was so compelling. You have really made amazing strides. I am so happy that you see so much about your path. Waking up and opening your eyes to all of that must have been  a painful realization.

My mentor and my therapist both say the same thing about anger. It is meant to notify us about something. We are suppose to learn something from it, DO something with. It is meant to be cleared from the mind and body, not ignored.  Unexpressed anger turns inward...that is why we get physically ill, and start to hate ourselves, all of ourselves, including and especially that anger.

Re; the "dark side" .  Naming anger and pain "dark" makes sense, because it is not light, and it is a lower vibration, and negative feeling to us. Calling it this tends to label it as something bad. Well, if it is something we don't want.....we need to clear, maybe that's just fine! "Owning" it (whatever you call "it") is VERY important, though. I think even though it may not be our pain, and we have just taken it on for someone else....it's their energy, really, it HAS become ours in our reaction to it. So being AWARE of where it (the "dark" ) came from is important.....but knowing WHY WE FEEL IT is paramount. What is it telling us?

Call it what you will.....feeling it is still something we have to look at.

Sela

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Re: conflict
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2006, 11:46:07 AM »
Hi all:

Mum, I'm glad you stood your ground with that landscaper.  Hopefully, he will remove the big rock and bring in the smaller stuff, and so he should.  It sounds like that is something that might happen now.  Great going Mum!!

The discussion of anger is interesting to me.  Some ideas came to my head when I read this:

Quote
Anger is poison, but like Jacmac said: when ignored.
"Anger rots the vessel it is carried in." That's for sure!

I think I disagree with part of this.  For me, anger can be a life saver.  It can motivate me to act when there is what I perceive as danger or injustice.  I call it a negative emotion because it's not my favorite and I don't enjoy feeling angry.  But anger really is just a feeling.  IMO, it has a purpose......just as your mentor and T said:

Quote
It is meant to notify us about something. We are suppose to learn something from it, DO something with.


I agree and I also think.....it's a feeling....it's human.....it's necessary for survival.   And when we perceive danger or injustice......it's definately notification.  The key word being "perceive" and sometimes, our perceptions are not accurate and so our anger might be misinformed. :lol: :shock: :shock:

The main thing, though, imo is not so much what we feel but being able to express what we feel. and especially...being aware of what is being felt.   When the opportunity to do that is denied us, or we repress our feelings...........

THEN  I agree......a feeling like anger might stew and ferment and bubble and cook and eventually......it might even become what I see as the real poison....

HATE (which is said to corrode the vessel within which it resides). :shock:

So I do agree, in the end, that anger can evolve into something poisonous, if it is kept inside, ignored, or repressed but also, that there are times when it might be prudent to repress, set aside until later.....big anger...or times when it could save us to use it, for all it is. 

Having said all of that, I do think I understand where you're coming from in regard to not wanting to express anger, or feeling afraid to do that, or that it might not be appropriate to do so, or being taught that it is wrong to do that, etc (re those who expressed these ideas).

It can be scary.  For me, especially when I've felt a great, huge, large amount of it (due to feeling greatly, hugely, and largely in danger and treated unjustly).  At times like that, I think it might be perfectly correct to repress a good part of my anger.  Otherwise, it may end up being a great explosion and a terrible experience for me and anyone who looks like me ( :D) --or looks at me!! :oops:

The trick, for me, in that case......is to let as much of it out as possible....prior to dealing with whoever I have to deal with......in what I call appropriate ways...like talking to someone about how I feel, writing stuff down, pounding on bongo drums (I just love those bongo drums), walking, screaming even.......whatever it takes to diffuse my fuse, I guess.  If that is not possible, then it might be a good idea to just bury it, until I am able to do those things (but also...important to make sure I get back to it and deal with it and get it out!!).

So, I feel like I am in a better position to calmly express myself to whoever I must, if I do so without expressing great, huge, loads of anger, (with the exception of being in some kind of physical attack......in which case I would hope to skip the walking, screaming, bongo banging stuff and go straight to expressing......loudly and clearly.....or using my anger as a weapon of self defense, if it seemed like the situation warranted that).

The thing is......once I started to look at anger as just a feeling.......rather than as some enemy or wrong or weakness or handicap of mine, I felt less afraid of it and more able to express it in ways that seem ok.

I wouldn't go so far as to say....anger is your friend, although, at times, it might actually be (such as when others try to abuse you....it can save you from passivity and goad you into acting to seek help or to escape more).

Now I feel like I'm lecturing.  All this just got me thinking.  It's a good topic.  One I think many of us can relate to.  I know it was sure a different ball game for me, when I was a child.  My anger wasn't allowed....was punished, or beaten into submission.  Lucky for me, I joined a martial art at a fairly young age and found great wisdom in my Sensi, learned much that helped me, and was able to unleash a lot of my repressed anger, which was a good thing, and I had some good ways of releasing it to begin with, but my Sensi helped me to tap into .......anger I didn't know was there???  Repressed for years, I guess.   Otherwise, I might still be carting it around. :x  It doesn't feel like that to me.

I can say:  "I feel very angry", to someone, without thinking it's wrong, or awful, or dangerous.  But more importantly......I am aware of feeling angry.    That's a big thing for me.  I think, for years, I just felt.....stuff .....but wasn't really aware of, or paying much attention to....what.  Sometimes, I really have to focus on that.....ask myself....."What am I feeling?".  Once I figger that out, I am better able to choose what or how to express.

Sela

Brigid

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Re: conflict
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2006, 01:20:38 PM »
I have always considered myself a "big picture" person and really hate details.  I am great at developing a concept and coming up with the general perameters of how to make it happen, but don't expect me to read all the fine print and spend hours developing the mission statement.  I feel somewhat the same way about conflict.  If the conflict involves my "big picture"--my kids, friends, pets, home, neighbors--whatever is meaningful to me, I will jump into the battle with both feet.  If however, it involves what I perceive to be a fine point argument with no benefit (selfishly) to me--then leave me out of it.  I cannot endlessly argue over the nuances of how something is said or what the meaning behind the meaning might be.  That is why I will avoid getting into the occasional  conflicts which arise on this board.  Some folks enjoy the active discussion of fine points--I do not and will not engage that.  One is not right or the other wrong, just the way I am.

I agree with Sela that anger can be a motivator.  It certainly motivated me into action when my ex suddenly left, even though I was in a state of depression.  It was the only source of energy I had at that time.  It did become more destructive over time, however, and then I needed to start letting go.

Mum, I am sorry this whole situation is causing you so much distress.  I, too, let these types of things eat away at me and cannot let them go until they are resolved one way or another.  I often wish I could be more relaxed about such things, but once again, it's just the way I am.  I hope it all works out for the best for you and you can find your place of calm once again.

Brigid 

movinon

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Re: conflict
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2006, 11:19:31 PM »
Hops and all,


Couldn't let this one by without jumping in.

Quote
but for the most part, deep inside, I feel anger is poison.

The few times I've let it fly, the guilt afterward made me literally sick. (I know that stuffing it, instead of stating it reasonably like you've suggested, makes it like steam in a kettle and the words are more scalding when they finally do come out.)

Man can I relate to this.  This is part of the empowerment work I do.  I had the same thing going on for me.  I scared people away with my anger.  I learned how to release it fully and with intention in a healthy way.  I am attaching the web link to the work.  It's a worldwide thing and has changed my life.  I would not have the kind of support and strength I have without it and it's for women from 18-88 ( and believe me when I say there are plenty of older women who do this - retired therapists and all).

If someone is offended or I am breaking a rule, please let me know and I'll (figure out how to) delete it.  I get NO $ from this either.  It's like therapy, just INTENSIVE. 

http://www.womanwithin.org/index.htm

It's premise is "how would your life be different if there had been a place for you.....

Movin

An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind.

mum

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Re: conflict
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2006, 11:29:47 PM »
Ok, the guy finally called....to try and manipulate me into paying again!!!! I think I got way too angry, and should have simply done the broken record thing.... but oh, well. I can't beat myself up about handling it wrong. I am not paying. He tells me it will cost him an additional $2800.00 to do this. So I pointed out to him that he will be able to recoup $1680.00 of it when he charges his next customer who wants that rock I do not...and that I have no chance of recouping anything, as I do not own a landscaping company. He told me he wanted to "get this over with" and that he had never had a customer "speak to me in this tone of voice" or one who was "unhappy at all". These comments all seem to be manipulative, to try and make it "personal" and have me get entangled in feeling sorry for him, or bad about my stance. All it did was trigger anger in me and I questioned his ethics and motivation. I told him that because he had yet to accept any responsibility for this mistake was a concern to me. He tried to counter by telling me again what I ordered, but I told him that we both know that product does not exist, and as a professional in the field, it was his responsibility to know this. My husband thought it was a little creepy, how the conversation even contained any of that. I think that is true (so I immediately felt it was my fault for going there, which is not what my husband meant.) But I think I should have controlled things more, not gotten so pissed off, or even emotional at all. But he was trying sooo hard to get out of it, and make me feel responsible for this!! I just could not quietly stick to my guns....I had to explain how pissed I was that I even had to have a damn gun for this conversation.
And yet now, I do not feel great. I feel exhausted.  I wish I had not engaged in anything, either explaining myself or anything.
But I think I would feel worse if I looked at my awful yard every day, looking at a failure of sticking up for myself.
BUT , I still feel bad that I got my way.....What is wrong with me????

I will be ok...process this, thanks for listening. They will begin removing it tomorrow morning...I hope they don't do something bad to my house or dogs....

Hopalong

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Re: conflict
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2006, 12:07:25 AM »
Hey Mum,
You're pretty new at this calm assertive stuff, right? Since conflict or disagreement have been so very painful for you?
So this is a clumsy, uncomfortable, draining and difficult experience for you, and you did not do it perfectly, and it triggered some shame and guilt?

GOOD FOR YOU FOR TRYING IT ANYWAY!

I think you enduring this...and sweating your way through it...is honorable. Don't forget that despite his disapproval (and your own discomfort with yourself)--the outcome is very very different than if you simply had let it go, and then lived with the pain of passivity and not having tried on this new behavior.

I think it's really worth recognizing what a very huge step this was. And respect yourself for it.
I also think it's very likely that when the next event in your life that calls for assertion comes along, it will be a step less difficult, and the next a step less difficult, etc.

This is just how you do it. One bloody step at a time. But it's how change is. Not usually a lightning strike or conversion experience, imho...but really sweaty effort that you repeat and repeat.

Success isn't simple as a one-shot affirmation session (or it's never worked for me, dammitall). Instead i think it is over-time repetition of these things AGAINST YOUR OWN RESISTANCE until they do become a part of you. And add to your strength and character.

I respect you. I think you've moved a whole lot of internal rock.
Please don't beat yourself up for not shifting every pebble within view.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."