conflict

[mum]

I do so poorly with conflict.
I feel so insecure when I have to stick up for myself. STILL!! GEEZ, I should be way past this!
I am fixing up my house and property to sell.
While I was at work today, the landscaper spread this HUGE rock all over my 1/4 acre, when what I ordered was smaller decomposed granite.  They did such a nice job, WITH THE WRONG MATERIAL!!!  It is beyond awful looking. My dogs cannot run on it, I cannot even pick up dog poop (it falls between the large rocks).
He insisted the stuff was 3/4 inch (in what alernate universe?) when it is clearly 2" rock. I really felt bad. He was stunned that I was so unhappy. He said it is what he showed me. (it was not). I asked him to get a ruler and look at what 3/4 " is. I told him to tell me what he was going to do tomorrow. He said it will cost me for him to replace it (honestly, they will have to scrape it all up).

So I called the company he bought the material from. They said they delivered 7/8" quarry rock. But that it is really up to 2" large.  "you can't use a ruler to measure rock" is what the lady told me. "every quarry has a different definition of 3/4"". 
WHAT THE.....?
She told me if someone asked for 3/4 decomposed granite....this is what she would sell them!!!
Didn't I look at a sample, she wants to know? YES> and this is NOT the sample!!!

Anyway, I stopped payment on the deposit check for now, so I haven't paid anything. I feel soo bad, but it is hideous!!!

So as far as detaching: I know I need to...but I am attached to NOT spending a fortune for something I find brutally ugly.

Granted, this is a huge MIS communication.....now I know I should have gone to the materials place to LOOK at the piles of stuff but how did I know his examples would be so off???

I feel like someone knocked me for a loop. I try to be so nice. I hate hate hate conflict....especially when the person is actually nice.

Tomorrow they put in sod, so they will be here again.  Any ideas???? I feel like a little kid, asking for help with such a stupid thing....but HELP? I have no husband here, and my friends are mostly advising I either stick to my guns or let it go...(great).

[mum]

Jacmac, I am not offended by anything you said. I needed this kind of feedback. Thank you.

Why do you "hate, hate, hate conflict"?

Because someone always gets hurt. Because I never want to be the cause of pain. It's unreasonable, I know.

Is it the feelings of being duped, used, lied to that you hate, and having to confront the person with that reality?

It's because I know it may have been a misunderstanding, and that I have responsibility in it.
I don't think this person is intentionally duping me. But he is, naturally, not admitting any responsibility.

Are you concerned about how that will be responded to?

Exactly. I talked to my husband just now (I wish he were here) and he is concerned that I am so torn....he sees it as much more simple. The guy screwed up. He needs to fix it.

Is it because in the past someone responded negatively when you called them on their crap?

BINGO BINGO BINGO!! And yet, where is the "crap" here? An honest misunderstanding? He does not speak English extremely well, but he sure saw me point at what I wanted and wrote down 3/4" on the paperwork!! Yet the materials supplier tells me...oh, that's our 3/4!! And yet...that is not what I chose in his example case. His sample was MUCH smaller sized.

What do you think you need to detach from, feeling upset about not getting what you wanted?  

Good question. Both, I guess. Maybe it comes down to my "deserving" what I want and deserving to get it....do I do that even though it causes others pain?  I can probalby detach from being upset...but you are right, not after I do what needs to be done.

All the while I was telling him how much I hated it and was shocked at how bad it looked, in my head I thought, well, he doesn't think I am a nice person anymore. He thinks I am a bitch, now. Maybe he will do something bad to me or my home now.

But WHY do I care if he doesn't like me, really? Isn't he a business man? THIS IS HARD, even if I loved conflict (the only person I know who loves this is my exN.... He does seem to get his way, though.)

I invited my realtor and a few friends to see it...WHY? Isnt' my opinion good enough?

I am an artist. Aesthetics are huge for me. I know I am readying to sell this place, but I have created a beautiful haven where there was nothing... I still care about it, I can't stop. IF the next owners want to do something awful, I don't care, but I can't just let this place go to hell right now. My home has always been a kid and dog friendly place and I know that the next buyer will not feel warmed or welcomed by 3 inches thick of sharp rocks!!!!
This kind of rock is far harder to pick up then to put down, so it will take a lot more man hours, etc... and why that makes me feel bad, I don't know.  I wish my husband were here,not so much because a man would be treated differently, but because he makes me think, just as you did.  He just told me that if I still feel sorry for the guy I may as well forget it, because the guy's counting on that.

Thanks for listening and making me think. This is yet again, another chance for me to be strong....I hope I can do it.

Bean, just got your post, too. Thanks for the ideas. This is exactly the kind of thing my husband told me about: these guys screw up all the time, they are betting on you feeling bad for them and backing down. I think the part about him being in business how long? (wonderful) is excellent, as I do think he should know how varied the rock "measurement" can be (how would your typical homeowner know this....it's his job to clarify).
Bottom line so far is< he hasn't been paid anything. What he has done, otherthan the rock, is acceptable.

Repeat after jac and I: THIS IS A BIG DEAL TO ME, but I'll remain calm when I talk to this guy tomorrow so he will treat me with respect, and we'll just see what happens, and get the whole thing taken care of, respectfully and it will be no big deal. 

Taping this onto my forehead. Thanks. It will be my affirmation tonight.... you guys (ooooh, I mean gals) are the best.

[mcginnis40]

Hi Mum,

I can't seem to get my user names straight (I post from a couple of different computers), but this is daylily.

I sympathize totally.  We completed a major home renovation last year, and our kitchen ceiling has started to buckle because the shower pan in the master bathroom above is not water-tight.  Now at this moment in my life, this is BEYOND annoying. But when I called them, did I threaten?  Did I bully?  No.  I timidly asked if they would mind coming to look at the work they did so badly.  And, as always, they started a long explanation of how this isn't really their problem.  Aargh!!!  I can just add this to the guy who put in pavers in the front of our house (tripling the price of the job as he worked) and cut off our post lantern.  We informed him, and informed him again, and informed him again, and six months later, he's still gonna get right on it.

While I think there may be some conflict-avoidance issues for both of us, I also think that people who do this kind of work are so busy, and so in demand, that they don't much care about quality.  It simply doesn't matter in this tight a labor market.  There are too many more jobs in the hopper.  If one customer is unhappy, they just move on to the next.

In other words, this guy might be a total jerk, and he might not have taken much care with his materials selection, and he might not be too concerned about your reaction.  The day our replacement windows were put in, I was in tears.  You could see daylight around the edges.  I told them that they couldn't possibly consider that a finished job.  They said the contract didn't specify trimming out the windows.  I said, "Did the contract specify leaving them looking like crap?"  If I hadn't stayed home to corral the dog, they would have simply walked away and left them that way.

So please don't beat yourself up about this.  You're doing the right thing by withholding payment.  It's your only leverage.  But the contractor's reaction is totally predictable and has nothing to do with you.  Fight the good fight, and hold out for what you want.  And don't pay until you get it.

best,
daylily (or whoever I happen to be at a given workstation) 

[write]

I tend to avoid conflict where I can too.

But this is a big and presumably expensive job which if you don't get them to change it you'll be stuck with it annoying you every day.

There's a nice piece on assertiveness http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap13/chap13e.htm sometimes refreshing those skills can help. I keep reading all this stuff and it's gradually sinking in...

I have to say a lot of workmen can be extremely sexist in their attitude in my experience and will try to fob off women but not their husbands! Very irritating.

[Chicken]

Hi Mum,

I'm not envious of your position!  I too hate hate hate conflict (this is why you never see me on a thread that has conflict in it!!!!)
I don't think I have a strong enough sense of self to be able to argue...  I always feel bad after. 

I always feel like I am at fault no matter  what, and I can't deal with that.  I can't deal with the competition of who's right and who's wrong which is the core of a lot of arguments at the end of the day.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi Mum

Did you get a written quote for this work?  If so, what does the quote say?  Are they installing what they wrote down?  Is the work being done on a day rate or fixed price?

If it was done verbally…. What about asking to see the samples again?  Then you can compare the sample with what they have already laid.

I understand how annoying and frustrating this is, but remember, you and your family are the people who will live with this, day in, day out… not the suppliers or builders doing the work.

You are not responsible for their mistake – fact
You do not have to pay for the replacement because of their mistake – fact

As a homeowner I can relate to what you are going through.  Not only is there the upheaval of the work being done, the last thing you need is to deal with mistakes.  Does he have a manager you can deal with?  Where you can explain what you picked and what is on your drive doesn’t match?

Another option is threaten to go to the local paper.  Local papers are usually interested in this type of thing, and bad press can be more damaging than the court system.

Conflict is crap…. I hate conflict too, but there are times when being too nice doesn’t work… there are times when we need to be assertive, and that’s what I see here… just be assertive.  Get any written information together, know what you agreed and be firm.  Sometimes it even helps to book an appointment with the manager, who will have to make the final decision.

Good luck…. Go kick ass girl )

Take care

H&H xx

[Brigid]

mum,
I hate conflict too, but my ex hated it more, so any battles that needed to be fought, had to be done by me while we were married.  I certainly understand the frustration of being taken advantage of as a single woman.

My bf owns a landscaping business, so I have a sense of what you are dealing with.  I have not consulted him, but I do believe that if the homeowner was unhappy with what they had done, they would fix it.  Contractors should rely on referrals from previous clients and they need those referrals to be positive or they eventually go out of business.  I think you have done the right thing by witholding payment, as this is your only leverage right now.  You have a legitimate complaint if the stone is not what you were shown or expecting and they need to make it right.  I agree that you should not have them put in the sod or do any more work until that part of it is fixed.

Did you get bids from any other landscapers or did you just hire the guy you used?  Do you know anyone in the business that you could consult as to how to proceed?  If he refuses to repair the situation, you could take him through small claims court, but that would only be a last resort.

Stay strong.  You will not be happy with yourself if you let him get the best of you.  This is your home and haven and you need to be proud of it and feel peace when you are there.  Who cares what he thinks of you?  You don't have to rely on his referral for future business, but you could damage his reputation if he doesn't make you happy. 

Sending you strength and determination.

Brigid

[Sela]

Good morning Mum:

It seems you have a choice:

1.  Allow this contractor to get away with putting 2 inch sharp rocks where you had asked for 3/4 inch, live with it until you sell the house, experience whatever feelings all of that evokes,

or

2.  Stick to your guns, face this guy down, even though you don't like conflict, maybe see it as a learning experience, go through whatever feelings all of that evokes.

Either way, you're going to go through feelings.  It just seems to me, it's a matter of WHICH feelings you decide to go with.

Will you like yourself better if you feel sorry for the guy, or if you are firm with him about what you want and what you were lead to believe you would get?
Will it be harder to go through the conflict with him now, or live with your decision to be passive, later?

You ARE a nice person Mum and it doesn't matter what this guy thinks.  He's not your judge.  He doesn't know you or anything about you and he will not be involved in your life.  Whatever you decide, however you choose to deal with him, will not effect whether you are a nice person or change that in any way.

Your choice will simply be another experience.  It's up to you to pick what you think will work best for you.

Personally, I'm not in love with conflict, but I don't like myself when I let others abuse me, insult me, or rip me off.  I beat myself up worse when I do nothing, say nothing about that, than I do when I ignor my fears and stand up to them.  It's scary, sometimes, it feels foreign, because generally I'm kind to people, but sometimes, it's necessary to do it to prevent .......losing more of myself?  That's what it feels like to me.....every time someone treats me badly and I do nothing.......it feels like I've lost a little bit of me......like they've taken it or won it or something.

Maybe that's weird or a bit goofy or whatever.  All I know is for me conflict sucks but being put down, ripped off, or worse.....is worse and I feel worse.....if there is something I can do to stop it, end it, or change it.

(((((((((Mum))))))))

You can be firm but pleasant.  Repeat over and over what you want.  Refuse to take responsibility for this guy's stuff.  He knows what he's doing.  You're not in his business, so you have relied on him to be honest.

Bottom line.....he was not honest since he showed you a sample of small, 3/4 inch stones but didn't tell you that the actual product would be up to 2 inch and sharp.  That was misleading, at the least, and dishonest at the most.  He might be relying on how nice you are.......expecting you to just accept it.  If so and if he gets what he's expecting, he will simply go on to do the same thing to the next person.

So, in the end, letting him away with it.....is like giving him license to keep doing it over and over.  Even if you try to get him to deliver what he originally showed you (same rock as in the sample) and it doesn't happen, won't you feel good about trying, about not letting yourself just be a victim??

Sela

[mum]

Thanks for the continued support. I know this is not life threatening, but it is something to deal with.
Sela, his sample was  what they ordered. The diffrence is that in his sample, none of the rocks were bigger than 3/4 in....1 inch tops. No where was there a rock as big as I have. The rock company told me this IS 3/4 (and that it can come that big).
I have decided to make him take it out. It was his responsibility to explain to me that what I ordered could come so large.  HE should know this.  I spent 18 years making this one of the most beautiful properties on my block only to have it ruined in one day. It looks cheap and tacky. 
I didn't sleep much and my daughter had nightmares of me being murdered in front of her and she was getting stabbed next. I think we are way too stressed about this. (she ended up sleeping with me, poor kid).
I will see what kind of solution this guy has come up with today, and it will only involve removing the rock or he will get no payment for anything he has done.
Thanks again.

[mudpuppy]

Hi mum,

Maybe I missed it, but what did your friends and especially your realtor think of the rock?
I mean, you're selling the place right? So if it doesn't reduce its value or make it harder to sell what's the prob? You're not going to be looking at it the rest of your life.
I can't help you much with the 'don't like conflict thing' but maybe on the practical side you don't need to have one on this issue.

Or maybe your pals agree it is objectively awful, in which case, go get 'em tiger.

mud

PS. I see you have posted and have already decided, but I'll toss my two cents in anyway.

[mudpuppy]

Hi jac,

Its true that conflict can occur when each party is trying to be heard. But it can also occur when one party is trying to silence others or tries to drown them out. I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying there can be many reasons for conflict.

It also raises the question of whether people's desire to be heard is stifled by an excess of conflict. We don't know how many people  don't speak up or simply leave if conflict is endemic.
 If the atmosphere becomes too threatening, too hard, too painful or worse for them then maybe that is a measure of excessive conflict? And maybe the board isn't functioning at its optimum for the maximum number of people possible.

Disclaimer: None of this is directed at anyone in partcular, just a general observation.


mud

[Hopalong]

I don't understand all of it because I haven't been around that long but I can try on some "I" statements. I think this is a little bit stupid, so forgive me.

When I found out there was a "private forum" it triggered memories over being intensely unpopular as a child. Part of the reason I'm so nice (I am quite popular among my own friends, or at least I'm loved now) is that I want so much to be liked. Part of it may be that I'm also in ways likeable. But a little leftover part of me was going (regardless of what the announcement said): oh it's a party and I'm not invited and I'm not special and everybody hates me.

When I found out two people I liked a lot had gone off and stopped posting I felt, waaaaah, I miss them and I feel abandoned.

When I read the red type that's A Big Voice I am: 1) semi-thrilled for the entertainment value of the fight (think I wanted to admit that? No, I have compulsive honesty problems and it also makes me sound like a creep); 2) delighted (not because I want to take a side but because it does feed something in me to read somebody bearing down like Moses on something they perceive as wrong--sort of a sick thrill combined with imagining the Godlike adult I visualized in another thread dealing with bullying middleschoolers), and 3) scared because that voice is so BIG and that sends me back to What If This Shuts Us All Up? and that segues into now I'm going to miss them ALL and I (might! someday!) be abandoned. (Red-ink poster...could you write in lavender to spare my feelings?) 

(Just wanted everybody to know I am very mature.  )

Hops (I'm off to a church group but if this is as embarrassing as I think it ought to be I may come home and delete it...I plead drugs! Took a strong narcotic for my back and my filters are down.) But as a 3 y/o girl said once at a little church ceremony when we taught them to light candles and I've never forgotten her...it was a kind of "share from your heart" thing, and she looked very serious and said softly, "I love everybody." I do too.

[movinon]

Mum,

I hate to get on my woman bandwagon again, but our gender is conditioned to be NICE and conflict is not "NICE", therefore, we often get SCREWED because we will not speak up for ourselves.  In another post, I saw a woman saying the men that work for her think she's a bitch.  Why is that?  More so, why is that offensive?  You know what you are and what you aren't.  I bitch is simply a woman who stands up for herself even in the face of conflict!  Believe me, they respect this more then people who back down and let themselves be run over.

I invited my realtor and a few friends to see it...WHY? Isnt' my opinion good enough?
I am an artist. Aesthetics are huge for me

EXACTLY!!!!!!!  See how we doubt ourselves?  YOu don't NEED to make excuses or give reasons.  You simply get WHAT YOU ORDERED!!!!  PERIOD!

Movinon

[mum]

Just an update. I still hate the rock.
I did a little research and found out that 3/4 " of the type I got doesn't exist. It's either 1/2" (which has up to 3/4 " in it) or 1" (which has up to 2" in it). I got the 1" of course!
I also asked if they would take it back and they said not if it is spread out. I told her it was.

I finally talked to the landscaper, who is licensed (and wouldn't want to lose that!) and he feels just awful, too. When he found out I went to the supply place, he said "oh, I see" Because this morning he called them and asked them if he could return it and they said yes, and then they called him this afternoon (apparently after I was talking to them) and told him he could not return it.
I refuse to feel bad that he was caught in a LIE. Too bad for him.

Anyway, he will remove the rock, but since they won't let him return it, and it is about 40 tons, he has no place to put it until he needs it for another job (again...too bad, not my problem).

I understand that there was a huge miscommunication but told him under no circumstances will I keep this. I will either pay him the full amount planned, or I will not, as I will need the money to pay someone else to fix it.

He was very apologetic, but still sounded panicked as I am sure this is a HUGE sum of money for him to eat.
I actually wouldn't mind paying a bit more, but I am not letting that on just yet.

[movinon]

Yeah Mum!!!!!!