gender identity and n-parents

[daylilyasguest]

Hi everybody.  I have been thinking about this lately and want to open it up for discussion.

I don't know how it unfolds for men, but I believe that women raised by narcissistic mothers often end up with an unclear or inaccurate idea of their gender roles.  To put it simply, I'm wondering if narcissistic mothers can't model feminine behaviors for their daughters because it would divert focus from themselves.  If the narcissistic mother acknowledges that she has a duty to develop her daughter's sense of femininity, then the mother is, in essence, grooming a rival.  And in many cases, the mother can't or won't allow this to happen.

In my family, there are three girls.  I would say that all of us have distorted visions of femininity.  In my one sister's case, this has become rather extreme.  She does not care for herself at all.  She neglects her personal hygiene and grooming to the point where it's rather embarrassing and unpleasant to be in her company.  She gets a haircut once every three or four years.  She wears clothes until they fall apart and are covered with permanent stains.  I worry very much about this because she has a young daughter.  What kind of image of the feminine is that little girl going to develop?

The dynamic has played out differently in my own case.  While I take care of the basics (I'm always well-groomed and appropriately dressed), I always feel that I view other women through a glass wall.  The whole feminine culture--the things that all women are supposed to have in common--seems to have nothing to do with me.  I can't bring myself to take care of myself.  I was actually glad to turn 40 because in some ways it matters less now.  I've passed the point where the distinction is made between looking good and looking good for one's age.  It's actually something of a relief to me, though I do feel bad sometimes that I don't try harder for my husband's sake.  But I can't seem to overcome the voice in my head that says, "What's the use?  A pig with lipstick is still a pig."  And I know without a doubt where that voice came from.

The harder part for me is taking care care of my health.  I don't see doctors.  At this point, I have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with another illness, even if it were my own.  But I've had some symptoms for the past few months that are potentially serious.  Theoretically, I know I should do something about it.  Emotionally, I just can't see putting significant time and effort into preserving...this.

It's possible that when I was younger, I learned to distance myself from myself as a coping mechanism.  In many ways, I view my life as something that is happening to somebody else, and I'm a spectator.  My mother taught me that I was really powerless to influence the inevitable negative outcome of anything I tried, so I suppose it's not surprising that I should feel this way.  But I'm a grown-up now, and I've come far enough to recognize that this detachment does not serve me.  But damned if I can seem to change it.  Every time I make resolutions and try to talk myself into trying on a different attitude, I end up looking in the mirror and saying, "Yeah, right.  You're going to change."  And then I tend to smile ruefully and slip the old attitude back around my shoulders like an unbecoming jacket.  No big hysterics, no crying and screaming, but I just slide back into my accustomed detached negativity.

I believe that though my mother may have given me this attitude, it's my responsibility to change it.  Any suggestions?

daylily

[pennyplant]

Hi Daylily,

There's actually many directions this discussion could go.  It does strike a chord in me but I'm not sure yet if my experience is the same as what you're talking about.  I don't believe my mother is a narcissist .  Some other problem has been at work in our relationship.

I've often felt that one of the reasons I don't fit in with women very well is that I don't understand/care about some of the signature women's activities such as shopping as a social activity or pastime, cute little gift-giving occasions, pride in housekeeping (Our home today is not a pigsty or anything, it's just that you will NEVER find me scrubbing the floors at midnight after a full day at work or anything along those lines!).  My mother didn't enjoy doing any of those things with me, didn't really enjoy doing very many things with me.  I don't know, maybe my sister just wore her out.

About beauty tips:  I was very interested in make-up but was not allowed to wear it in public until 9th grade, I believe.  Stockings were a big deal too.  Don't know if it was just mom or both parents who didn't want me to start doing those things until much later.  Yet, when I was eleven, my mother would often comment, "I wonder why you don't have any boyfriends?  When I was your age I had boyfriends."  Eleven years old!!!  She would criticize my complexion--SHE never had any blemishes at all.  I didn't stand up straight enough and she was "so embarrassed at how looked up there" on stage during a chorus concert.  I don't think the criticisism was relentless--it just made an impression on me, hurt my feelings.  It seemed to be about things I couldn't really help.

Because my sister was so difficult and my mother was blamed for this (unfairly in my opinion) she did feel obligated to do things with my sister such as baking or sewing.  Quality time together I suppose.  But I resented this because I was the oldest sister and mom never did things like that with me. (Oh, I sound very competitive here  )  I had to learn it myself or in a class.  I had a natural interest in these things but mom never wanted to spend the time with me.  She would occasionally give helpful hints or let me watch her do things.  Well, she would also give me craft kits and things like that.  It was maybe more like that parallel playing stage that pre-schoolers pass through.  Doing the same thing at the same time but not doing it together.

Looking at my mother's family, my grandmother was severely depressed for most of her married life.  Probably this is why none of the daughters felt close to her.  She never taught any of them to cook or sew either, all learned in class or on their own.  Rarely did these women babysit for each other's kids or do much together at all.  They were not friends.  None of them is really into beauty products but all are clean and well-groomed.  It is the female connections that seem to be missing.  But I think it was the emotional illness of my grandmother that got in the way.  I guess my mother couldn't teach me what her mother couldn't teach her.

So, I don't know.  Femininity is hard to define and hard to explain.  I think I know what you're getting at and I think I even agree to a certain extent.  But there are lots of variables in a subject like this.  And how much of it is just surface?  I mean there's lipstick and stuff that can make you look like an idea of femininity.  And there's just being you who happens to be a woman.  I happen to wear enough makeup to look better, but not too much because I garden and hike and work hard at my job--I sweat!!!  So, I found what works for me.  My sister usually wears full makeup.  My mother wears very little.  We each figured it out ourselves. 

Do you want to be more feminine or do you just think you SHOULD want to be?  Do you think you have any natural interests in doing or learning the feminine things?

PennyP

[healme]

I think I understand a little of what you are saying....

I don't relate to the "girlsy" thing either. I don't care to do the girls night out, girls weekend or even the occassional lunch. But I wonder if it has more to do with not trusting women than not 'liking" the girlsy thing. It all "feels" fake to me. Which is what my mom's niceness is. Boy, you should see her when she gets home...a totally different person.

My N mom is way over the top. Everything must match...shoes, outfit, jewlery. She spends boatloads on "products" for hair, skin, makeup, etc... It is VERY important to her. She repeats and repeats all her compliments in her head and to others who will listen. We all get it.....she is perfect.

I on the other hand have a hard time taking care of myself. Don't get me wrong, I wear makeup, cut & color with a fashionable cut, wear up to date clothes. But I do my best NOT to stand out in my clothing, hair or makeup. She says I am too plain. My main problem area is weight. I am 40 pounds over weight. I can exercise and cut back on the eating... But as soon as I lose 15 pounds or people make compliments....I run back to my old self...Eating poorly, stop exercising, becoming depressed.

Not relating to women and not trusting them...is the main reason I am going to counseling. But now I am learning about myself in a whole new area that I never knew existed...

[Portia]

Good to see you (((daylily)))

I look at my body and want to laugh; it seems absurd that this thing houses my brain!

I pinch it and it hurts, I wash it and take care of it on the outside. I find it funny / odd / interesting that this exterior is what other people see of me; and it is this exterior that other people make huge instant decisions about.

You know, the few seconds it takes us to evaluate someone? All on the surface. Amazing. I find it somehow……insulting!

I’d much rather write to people than talk to them. For some things. If I want to gain something (certain information say), I’d rather talk to them face to face, see if they're lying. But I like it here because we can’t see each other and make all those superficial judgements – my tribe/not my tribe etc.

I view my life as something that is happening to somebody else, and I'm a spectator.

Yeah, kind of. I saw a traumatic experience (of mine) through my mother’s eyes when I was about 4/5 and I find that easy to do now. Moving the camera from one to another and it can be very annoying/irritating. I often don’t like what i think other peoples’ views of me are!

I’m not feminine. I don’t want to be feminine. I want to be a person first and preferably a brain before a body. Tricky

Age? I like being my age. I like having all this stuff in my head! I don’t like having knees that ache, a back that can’t garden for too long, but I view those things remotely....but:

Daylily
But I've had some symptoms for the past few months that are potentially serious.  Theoretically, I know I should do something about it.  Emotionally, I just can't see putting significant time and effort into preserving...this.

Yeah I know but: it’s worth doing things to avoid pain. Pain isn’t something to court. I hate physical pain because it reminds me of my body!

And to be really morbid: if you could find out when you are going to die, wouldn’t you want to? To make sure you did what you wanted to do before the day?

It’s part and parcel of the same thing. If we let our bodies decay, our brains will die. So I think we have to do the minimal maintenance. Please go see a doctor?

[Hopalong]

Daylily,
I just want to say your story moved and saddened me.
I am wondering if reading some basic feminist theology might help you learn to love your body?

I'm too late tonight to find you a good title but let me know if you're interested; there are some lovely, empowering and inspiring books that tease underneath the self-loathing that causes so many women to dissociate from their bodies.

It doesn't involve "religion" necessarily if that's not a language you speak...it can, but it's also just a way of challenging a lot of unconscious self-oppression that women are trained to do at the most subtle and unconscious levels. So yes, it was your mother, but the culture itself conspires to make that sort of destruction even worse.

You deserve to delight in being.

Hops

[Marta]

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Daylily))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

What a pleasure to hear from you!

If I understood you correctly, you were not talking about femininity of physical appearance, but a deeper force behind that, it is about loving your own body and not getting sick! Could it be more as a symptom or metaphor of something deeper you are struggling with, in terms of legacy from your mother?  Do you have children of your own? I know that when I started confronting my sister's voice in my head, it started over something as small as my decision to travel.

It is so easy to give advice to each other on how to deal with our mothers, they are all the just the same, but so difficult to advice on how to broker our relationship with ourselves, for each of us is so unique, so I will not even venture in the marshy lands. I can only share my own experiences.

As for taking care of the body. I am in my early forties. At this age, taking care of the body is really more for my health and energy level than for outward physical appearance. I have found that when I take care of my body, I really feel good and productive, and vice versa. During my recent problems with my mother, I just slipped on all fronts, including taking care of my body, not exercising regularly. I am really very sensitive to my environment and external circumstances of my life as far as taking care of myself is concerned.

A lot of my pain in life comes from trying to change myself for wrong reasons, to win approval or to fit in, because it was socially expected, or any number or reasons. For decades I tried to be someone I was not, chitchat, make small talk, go to parties (even when I hated them). It was silly, really. I wish someone had told me then that just be yourself, kind of like don’t try to be a tennis player when what you are really good at is guitar. Stay up here and read your books instead of joining the big party downstairs. Accepting myself as I am has been the single most valuable change I ever made in myself (therapy helped a lot), in that I no longer want to change unless I see a need to change myself (as opposed to someone else seeing a need to change me.)

Then I have tried to change because I was in a lot of pain and there was no other way out. I was really unhappy in the kinds of jobs I was choosing. I had an intense and insatiable need of approval from my family and choosing these jobs won me approval from my family, but I was so miserable, kind of like having my feet trapped in shoes that were two sizes smaller. I didn’t know that I could just take off the shoes and kick them away! I didn’t know that all that pain was so unnecessary! When my dad died, this need for approval from him melted. I finally changed my career path. I don’t know if I could have done it while he was alive. May be may be not. Who knows?

As a child, I never showed any talent for art. A few years ago, I got a paint box and spontaneously started painting. After I made my first painting, the friend I was with just hugged me and told me that he loved it! It really felt to me as though he meant it too, as opposed to the fake encouragement I would get from my mom or sis! I’d had had real encouragement from someone so few times in my life that whenever I got it felt like a precious gift to me and stirred something deep within me. That got me started on taking up art as my hobby and I have never looked back since. For the first time in my life, I felt an intrinsic motivation to get better at something. Art has been a great healing force for me in a lot of ways. I love getting beneath the surface and understanding subtleties, and I think nothing in the world is as subtle as drawing a line. The change has come only because I loved doing this for its own sake. I have often thought what would it have been like if I was with someone other than that particular friend that day when I first made that painting (I still have my first painting, I see how bad it was.) I don’t think I would have made another if I had not received that shot of encouragement from my friend. It is scary sometimes to think how certain chance incidents guide the course of our life.

I, for one, can really use lot of encouragement from those around me, support from my friends, and a lot of handholding when I am trying to change something.

You are so right about the queer relation between femininity and N mother, at least in my case. She simply refused to buy me new clothes when I went to college, and I never understood why. In me, this queer dynamics is manifested in a different way, not physically.  It comes out in many ways but one of it is my fierce need to be self-sufficient and feel suffocated by it at the same time. I don’t mean self-sufficiency just in paying my own bills etc., but in never letting anyone carry grocery bags for me, pay for me. When I went on dates, I insisted on paying my half and meeting the guy at the cinema or wherever. I didn’t choose this, I just did it (her voice in my head saying this is the only way.) The other day I let a friend come and pick me up from the airport (I always refuse, my mother would never ever pick anyone up and always yelled at my dad when he did) and it felt really nice. I always wore my self-sufficiency kind of like an armor around me from which I find very difficult to come out. I think this means I also expect others around me to be self-sufficient too and this I don’t like either. I am still not sure how to get out of this armor or can clearly articulate the reasons why I need to do this, but talking about it and becoming aware is at least the beginning I think. So thank you for bringing this up Daylily, I feel energized and encouraged when I can squeeze hand of someone else also struggling with her mother’s voice inside her head as I am.

I remember from your past posts that you’ve had some rather traumatic experiences with doctors. May be picking a kind, gentle female GP would help? May be asking some friends to remind you for regular checkups and go with you to the doctor’s would help? May be you can cue in your husband on what is it that you are trying to do?

Love, Marta

[pennyplant]

 Sugarre said, "When people know you, they forget what you look like!  Have you ever noticed that."

Oh, man, have I ever!  My appearance was always commented upon, from probably birth on, by family, peers and strangers alike. Must have to do with being the only redhead in the family, neighborhood, and grade school.  I was extremely self-conscious about how I looked and how I compared to other people.  My mother was very conscious of this as well and often pointed out to me my differences and/or flaws.  "You can't wear that, it clashes with your hair!"  I heard that everytime we went school shopping or whenever there was an occasion to try and look perfect.  Hair and freckles were major topics for name calling and teasing.  It seemed like everything about me had to be downplayed to fit in or not attract attention.

So, I always thought it mattered what I look like.  And I could not for the life of me understand why someone who was not pretty or slim or whatever would still be well-liked or asked out by boys.  I thought, I'm not as ugly as her but she has more friends or a boyfriend.  I really believed appearance mattered that much and that it explained why I didn't fit in.  Therefore, it made no sense that someone less attractive than me would be more well-liked than me.  Had no idea for a long, long time that looks really matter very little compared to who you are as a person, what kind of friend you are to others.  I trace this dumb idea back to what my mother taught me.

I'm interested in this idea that maybe mom was competing with me on some level.  Or didn't understand where she left off and I began.  So, my unusual looks were a reflection on her... don't know really.

A few years ago, while in the middle of a crisis, my mother happened to send me most of my baby pictures for my birthday (as I'm into family history and photos).  I looked at them with a new eye.  With every picture, I kept asking myself, why did I grow up with the idea that I was ugly?  These pictures prove I was not.  Kept looking at my own pictures of me as a young woman and mother and thought the same thing.  Why did I think I was fat and ugly, these pictures prove I was not.  So, maybe I don't see myself correctly.  It made me realize that I look alright, presentable even.  That as I grow older, I may never look better than I do right now.  So, I began to stop trying to hide myself.  Which has brought other challenges, let us say.  But still, it's better to feel confident in my looks than to truly believe I'm ugly.

Whenever I meet another redhead I always ask them if they were picked on as children.  Most of them say yes.  But one I met told me that her family always told her how beautiful she was and even when she got glasses they told her the same thing.  It was when she started at a new school that someone first thought to say she was ugly (she was not).  I have always remembered that her family told her she was beautiful with her red hair and glasses.  Nobody EVER told me that.  Not until I was an adult.

In spite of this mixture of ideas about  beautiful/ugly I now know that my social problems had less to do with looks and more to do with my personal problems.  People will always be attracted to a happy, well-adjusted, and generous person, whether they are plain, pretty, unusual or whatever looking.

PP

[Hopalong]

I now know that my social problems had less to do with looks and more to do with my personal problems.  People will always be attracted to a happy, well-adjusted, and generous person, whether they are plain, pretty, unusual or whatever looking...

What wisdom, PP.

Hopalong

[2224Jessica]

Hi Guys,
I agree, I have been struggling with accepting and loving my outward appearance. For many years, I hid in Jackets, and always wore my hair up. My mum was always telling my sister and I that we are ugly, and we are not to feel sexy. She pretty much brought us up that our feminine bodies are evil. She never taught us how to put makeup on, how to shave our legs etc. I don't understand why she did this. I thought she was just worried about us getting pregnant as teenagers. But she still puts us down. I think she doesn't want us to look better than her. My hubby couldn't understand why I didn't seem to care if I looked good or not. I am always told that I am quite attractive. I mean I always was well groomed and wore makeup occasionally but never really went out of my way to embrace my feminity. As I was growing up, my friends were either the class brains or tomboys. I never really understood the girly girls. In the last couple of years I have embraced my feminity.  I had my daughter, I want her to grow up accepting herself so I thought, what the hell, I'm going to buy pink tops, instead of brown. buying sexy lingerie. I'm going to buy hells, instead of flats etc. I also paint my nails.  However I still find it difficult to relate to girly women, Its like I just don't speak their language. I get along with them and everything but their world view and ideas are different to mine. I also don't know how to do the girly chit chat. I always end up being the friend to go to for advice, not the friend to go shopping with etc. The friends I do get close to are usually quite intelligent or sporty.
Its wierd though my sister has gone to the extreme and is overly sexual with pretty much every male around and she dresses quite skimpy. However she has very low self esteem.

I think nmums make it harder for girls to grow up girly or accepting their bodies. It's kind of wierd, I am attracted to men but I find men much more interesting to have an interesting conversation with.

Jessica

[Marta]

Sugarre,

Whenever my neighbor visits her best friend's house with her mum, the other mum comes out too to say hello. Those mums! I wish there was a mum country where we could lock them all up stock and barrel. That'd make my neighbor a Mummy though?   

Pennyp:
I don't believe my mother is a narcissist .
Oh, I sound very competitive here 
My mother didn't enjoy doing any of those things with me, didn't really enjoy doing very many things with me.
Because my sister was so difficult and my mother was blamed for this (unfairly in my opinion)
because I was the oldest sister and mom never did things like that with me.
She would criticize my complexion--SHE never had any blemishes at all.
I don't think the criticisism was relentless--it just made an impression on me, hurt my feelings.  It seemed to be about things I couldn't really help.
My mother was very conscious of this as well and often pointed out to me my differences and/or flaws.
That as I grow older, I may never look better than I do right now.  So, I began to stop trying to hide myself.

((((((((((((((Pennyp))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I am glad that you stopped trying to hide and are speaking up. I rather like your voice.
Marta

[Portia]

Daylily
what do you think? How you going to change those attitudes?

This is for you today. http://www.edwardmonkton.com/gallery10.php
And the images 11 and 12. 11 in particular because hey, some animals don’t need lipstick. They’re just wonderful as they are , spreading happiness wherever they go. I love this stuff (and I love pigs too, I really do, they’re fantastic animals and very, very clever).

[Sela]

I believe that though my mother may have given me this attitude, it's my responsibility to change it.  Any suggestions?

Dear ((((Daylily)))):

I think you've got the big half down pat in the above sentence.  I agree.  Attitude is ours and can be changed.  It is our responsibility.

Lot's of things can influence our attitude but bottom line......we are in charge of it.  It doesn't belong to anyone else and no one can force it on us.  I like that you recognize it is your responsibility to change it. 

The other half of the equation is doing the work.  You have to do the work.  No one else can do it.  It's your work and if you want to change your attitude you have to do more than know it's your responsibility, you have to take that responsibility on and go for it.  How about this?

1.  It took a long time for your attitude to form and it will take time to change it.  It is necessary to be patient.

2.  It might not be easy but it will be worth it.  You must convince yourself of this, first.

3.  Start by reading as much information as you can find on how to change your attitude, developing a
     positive attitude, including stuff about the unconscious mind and how it works.  Read until your head hurts.

4.  Pick one or two positive affirmations and repeat them to yourself at least twice daily, preferably in the morning and before going to sleep at night.  Do this religiously.  Pretend it's medicine and you must take it!!

It sounds so simple eh?  It's not.  It is possible and likely though, if you decide to give it your best shot.   It can't make your life any worse, can it??   These are some possible beginning steps that you could decide to take.

Please do not allow your mother so much power.    She may have influenced your attitude but you CAN change it.   It doesn't have to be a permanent condition. 

also:  There is a very old, very wise saying:

"Beauty is only skin deep".

People who judge others by their looks are like those who judge a book by it's cover.   Think of all the good stuff on the insides that they're missing??    You have good insides ((((((Daylily)))))) but they've been tarnished, since no one has bothered to shine them up!

Get out your soft cloth and start gently.   If you work at it slowly and consistently, you will soon be sparkling!

  Sela

[Hopalong]

Portia,
Thank you for Edward Monkton! Har!
Never heard of him...I love the friends one.

Har! Hee!

Hops

[pennyplant]

I also don't know how to do the girly chit chat. I always end up being the friend to go to for advice, not the friend to go shopping with etc. The friends I do get close to are usually quite intelligent or sporty.

It's kind of wierd, I am attracted to men but I find men much more interesting to have an interesting conversation with.

Hi Jessica,

These ideas from your post stood out for me because it sounds a lot like my style.  We used to visit some people we know for Friday night "Pizza Night".  One time I suddenly noticed I was the only female left sitting at the kitchen table talking with the guys.  The other women had slipped out and gone shopping together.  I wasn't even asked.  Boy, was I hurt even though I was having more fun talking with the guys and it would have seemed like a chore to drop everything and go to the store with the women.  I mean they didn't even feel the need to ask me along just to be polite. 

I have also trouble getting along with women who are large-sized in comparison to me.  Which is a lot of women as I'm about the size of a 12-year-old.  Is it competitiveness that makes that a problem?  I'd like to flatter myself and say it is jealousy, but I'm not that great looking.  It seems like it might be something else I don't understand.

Same thing with my "Pizza Night" example.  Here I was thinking I was just part of a mixed group and having fun and listening and talking to everybody.... and the women didn't even think to include me when they wanted to do something else.  Actually, I figured they were having fun too.  It never occurred to me to want to leave and that is apparently the first thing they wanted to do.  Apparently I was out of step the minute we got there and didn't even realize it.

It's getting to where I worry less and less about these things though.  I'm working on doing my own thing and learning to better appreciate the good people I do have in my life.

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

Hey PP,
I'll play armchair shrink (which means you should tell me to blow it in my....err...ear...)

Could it be that as a very small person, you learned to sharpen your wit and have a true enjoyment of the more "muscular" conversation vibes of men?

And could it be that women who enjoy the lighter stuff aren't necessarily offended by your preference for man-talk, but just sense it, so they move along to do that kind of thing?

Maybe nobody meant to offend you but they're just sensing who you are? (Hopefully.)

I am the same. I have a few close friends who like to tackle heavy and strong conversational topics with their teeth. Others, want to talk what I could say feels sort of like...when's the next Tupperware party. Nothing wrong at ALL with that kind of female bonding, but I've never enjoyed it much either.

I am a normal sized 5' 6" adult...but as a little girl I was the tiniest in my class until halfway through  high school.

I wanted to be more powerful.
Guys were.
Not just physically...the entire society told me they were.
(And my brother happened to be a mean example.)

So guy friends were precious to me, and still are.

Ring any bells?

Hops