Crazy-Making, Literally

[Surrounded]

Hopalong

I know what my next moves are.  I know you don't want to nag, but I know what you are saying.  No worries, I am on it.  Just venting.  And as far as screaming in front of the children, thanks to my efforts, that was really the first time.  I can take credit for that.
Strangely enough, they almost seemed relieved.  Like the other shoe dropped finally and I took a stand.  Maybe it was good.  I know weird to say, but  I suspect they learned something.

I always appreciate our input annd encouragment.

Take Care

Surrounded

[Surrounded]

Jacmac

You nailed it!  Way to put it in simple easy one-liners that just say it all. 

AND....I was at my local booksore trying to find those very books on Mon.  They did not have them in.  I am searching though.  I really want to read them.   I know they will help!

Thanks so much1

Take Care

Surrounded

[Surrounded]

Bean

Nope, nowhere to go.  I have tried leaving and going to my parents, a few years back.  But my mom is an N and I realized in about an hour, I would rather take my chances with this beast than that one.  Not much of a choice really.  Kinda sad. 

I am working on a plan right now, and it isn't happening fast enough.  Tomorrow isn't fast enough.  But my day will come.  I am looking towards that glimmer of hope and it keeps me going. 

You guys all keep me going!!

Plucky

You I think about a lot and I wonder how it is going with your decision.  It seems to have been swept aside with all the other stuff going on on the board right now.   I always appreciate your kind words and I hope you will keep us posted!

Take Care

Surrounded

((((((((Longtire))))))))

I am doing my homework you gave me.  I really want to respond to you.  I will be in touch as soon as i can give you some better time.  In the meantime, you take care of you.  Are you with your wife now.  Or did you go?  Sorry, I am new and I wasn't clear. 

Anyway,  hang on....I want to talk to you.  It's 3 am now and I better get back to bed before I have a monster in my face. 

Thanks for your post and help

You are appreciated.

Take Care

Surrounded

[longtire]

((((((((Longtire))))))))

I am doing my homework you gave me.  I really want to respond to you.  I will be in touch as soon as i can give you some better time.  In the meantime, you take care of you.  Are you with your wife now.  Or did you go?  Sorry, I am new and I wasn't clear. 

Anyway,  hang on....I want to talk to you.  It's 3 am now and I better get back to bed before I have a monster in my face. 

Thanks for your post and help

You are appreciated.

Take Care

Surrounded

Surrounded, my comments are intended to help, not dump more burdens on you.  You don't owe me anything. And I'll be still be here.  Don't worry about replying on my account, only if and when it helps you.

I moved out about 9 months ago and things have been getting better every day and week for me! Your mileage may vary.  It took me a loooong time to get to that point, though.  I am now in the process of divorcing my wife.  I am waiting for a reply from her to see if she is willing or able to work things out between us.  If I don't get a reply soon I will force the issue with a phone call.  If she is not able or willing to work things out at this point I will have my lawyer file.  It has been 4+ months since I told her I wanted a divorce and she said she would think about what she wanted.  I don't think I am pushing her too fast, at least by my standards.  Maybe too fast for her...

[Surrounded]

It's cool longtire!

It is just that your post was very encouraging to me and I wanted to make sure you knew that.  I wanted you to know I have been reading up on BPD and I see that in him too.  I think it is maybe BPD with N tendencies, or something.

I want to wish you well in your journey and tell you to hold strong.  It is good in a way to know someone out there who can understand, but it also tugs at my heart to know someone has suffered these same things.  I would not wish that on anyone.

And the "playbook" thing?   Funny----and creepy.

I don't mean to sound too busy, just scared of danger in my home.  I have to be sneaky which I hate, but find necessary right now.  So sorry if I come across a little odd.

I appreciate your input and hope I didn't offend.  No reply necessary, I am probably just paranoid.  Just knowing you guys are out there listening is SO HELPFUL.  And I hang on every word. 

 Sometimes I get so confused and can't make sense in my mind or with my conscience, especially when I seem to have a master mind manipulator here to mess with me daily.

And so.....

You take care.  And Thank you!!!

Surrounded

[Healing&Hopeful]

To answer:  In order I hope.

Healing&Hopeful:

No---I do not in my gut feel I am crazy.  But he would like me to-eh?

And as to what he does for me?  He claims he is nurturing me and really is smothering me-----like Pepe Le Peu(not sure on spelling)----that skunk who won't leave the cat alone.  Icky!!

My T says he is like my personal trainer working those weak muscles, ya I see, but what to do when those muscles are "ripped"?  Or I am just plain tired of the sh!t.

That is what I am trying to iron out.  I have so many lives to consider--so many  angles to try to see.  I just can't seem to make sense of it sometimes.  I am definitely scared of being labeled the "Bit**" by being assertive, but I am slowly coming to grips with that fear too.

Thanks for the questions,  I need help thinking straight sometimes.

Take Care---and Thanks

Surrounded

Surrounded

I'm so pleased you answered these.

I thinkl that our gut feelings, our deep feelings in the pit of our stomachs, are honest and should be listened by ourselves regardless of what anyone else is telling us.  I feel like cheering reading this response from you.

Re: the second question... yes your H may think he's being nurturing.... but what do you think?  The reason why I'm asking is because I feel that when we spend years dealing with what they have told us, we deal with things the way they have told us to, if that makes any sense.  We kinda lose our own identity and I feel that it is really important to get that back, that what we think about something, even when we are used to it being about them, but to say, yes I think this, rather than my H believes this.  Make any sense.... not sure, but I hope so.

Take care

H&H xx

[mum]

Hey, Surrounded. Just got my head out of my own butt long enough to read this thread.

 I am reading this thread with such renewed memories of my own "escape" from my ex 10 years ago....but as we well know, when you share kids with someone, they never really go away (darnit).

My ex isolated me. As a matter of fact, he is remarried, and now so am I, but he still wants me away from my family (and now husband!!) and has stopped me from leaving here with the kids so that I could be with my support (but he gets to leave the country whenever he wants for as long as he wants). 
What blew me away was that even though I finally got away from him in divorce, he has used the children to punish me for another 10 years!
Even though he cheated on me, berated me daily, was verbally and emotionally abusive....I had to leave him ( I mean , why would he leave...he had it just the way he wanted it....with my fear based compliance).
But leaving an N is just not something you are suppose to do, you know! They get to decide whether or not to leave. My leaving my ex, meant I was taking my power back.....and that was a HUGE threat to him.

When you told me about your kids being picked on, I didn't understand the connection, but now I think I do. I hope you know that they will start to own their power when they see you do so. (you did note that there was relief when you stood up for yourself). Of course this will not stop jerks from being jerks in or out of school, but they may learn to stick up for themselves a little better if you do.

I know this is a tough time...but it is possible to get through all of this, with your children intact, and your sanity. (oh, my ex did the same stuff about "you are losing your mind....you are such a baby.....what 's wrong with you.....you're reaction to what I did is not normal....")
Yeah yeah yeah...out of the mouth of a psychopath!

Please know I am with you on this....right there, like a powerful angel....holding you up. I think you can count on everyone here to send you the strength  you need to find your way.  Bless you. Sending love, light and POWER.

[Surrounded]

Oh, and NOW he is pushing for me to get meds.  Mr. ANTI-medication for as long as I have known him...is bugging me to get to the doctor because he thinks I need mood meds.  Chemical/hormonal imbalance ya know. 

"Cause he can just tell there is something not quite right with me."

I feel like screaming in his face that IF I need meds, it's because of HIM.  I don't know why I haven't become a something-aholic by now already.  I do have a finger problem which seems to afflict me whenever he leaves the room though. 

Thanks for the continued support and advice!

Take care.

Surrounded

[prettyinpink]

Surrounded,

Oh my!  You could have written about my life with my NH, whom I have just been separated from for almost 4 months.  Oh, he is good!!  and it IS crazymaking.  You are NOT the one who is crazy, and I agree with those who have written here that he is PROJECTING onto you.  All he accuses you of, he is describing himself!!!  Listen carefully when he says awful things to you, that's HIMSELF he's talking about.  He doesn't want to look at himself.  Much easier & less painful for him to send it all to you, rather than face himself.  From my perspective, & in my opinion, yes, he is N, but he could also be BP, and all this is VERY ABUSIVE!!

The books recommended here are excellent.  I have two more to add, "Walking on Eggshells" by Mason & Kreger, and "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans.  I am actually going to look for Bancroft's book, haven't read this one.  You are caught in the 'Cycle of Abuse'....and I know that I suffered from 'Stockholm Syndrome'. 

Only when I was put in the position to chose, 'do I move with my NH & his son, and continue to be abused verbally/emotionally' (even if he did promise to go to therapy....a TRICK on his part), OR, do I find my own place, where my own sons have a place to stay over (23 & 21),  & come to freely, risking losing him.  Well, I haven't heard from him in almost 4 months, NC.  THAT tells alot, after 12 years (only 3yrs. living together).  I made the right decision.  But, my oh my, I was so loyal to him, put up with such crap for so many years, the attempt to CONTROL me (using my sons) , and I thought if I loved him enough, cooked good meals, kept the house nice, listened to him, bla bla bla, that all would work out.   NOPE!  He is a N, and possibly BP, and probably has an OCPD to boot!  He's mentally ill.....crazy....whatever we want to call it.

So, Surrounded, you are NOT crazy, HE is!  I am wondering if all 6 children are all yours together, or are some yours and some his?  Is there any chance you can GET OUT? LEAVE? I know, that one can only do all this, when one is ready, so I want to be gentle with you, as I know how hard it is.  He isn't going to change, cause he isn't taking responsibility for himself, he's blaming you, finding fault with you.  And, none of this is your fault....they are HIS issues, and his alone.  Oh, I did yell sometimes (out of frustration), and I wasn't perfect either (as someone said here, we're human), but the anger, the control, the always finding things to be pissed off about.....not my stuff, and neither is it yours.

I'm sure you are a wonderful person.  Do you have someone to talk to?  A therapist/counsellor?  Good for you coming here, and to start reading...he won't understand it though, and will feel you are finding fault/criticising him....cause, sadly, IT'S ALL about HIM!!  always!!!  Look after YOU, YOU are important, you are wonderful, and you count FIRST!!!! as do your own kids!!
I'm here for you!  PIP

[mum]

Surrounded, someone gave me the book "Crazy Time" after my second divorce. Wish I had read it after my first. In it, though, there is a lot about how people can really make each other feel crazy. And how getting to the bottom of our reasons for marrying those people can save us from that.
Hang in there, hope your weekend is safe and sane. Love the finger thing....I had that condition, too!!! (only mine involved faces and whole body movements...yes, I was "crazy" too).

[Hopalong]

Hey Surrounded,
I'm just thinking of you. Hope you've had a moment or two this weekend when you've been able to carve out some calm for yourself, and life seems to slip open for a minute, and give you a glimpse of peace...in the future if not this moment.

I know it's going to come real, and just want to send some encouragement. Every little moment that you keep your eyes on the prize, you are building your freedom and peace.

It's going to come, you're making it happen.

Faith in you,
Hops

[dandylife]

One thing that has helped me in moments like this is to trust my body. MY BODY somehow always seems to know the right thing to do. Like when the person who is toxic to you begins to do something unacceptable, your body will tell you what to do. Listen to it.

Mine usually tells me to leave the situation. But, alot of times, intuition will tell me whether raging back will work, or some logical tactic.

With a narcissist, abandonment (threatening to leave) usually does the trick. Have you done this? What is the result? ("That is unacceptable. I am leaving until we can talk calmly.")

Usually, instantly, the person will resume normal conversation. ("What's the problem? We can work this out.") They get so terrified of your leaving them.

The other thing that works is reinforcing your boundaries. The N. tramples boundaries. You MUST put yours up and make them strong. The only way to make sure he knows you have strong boundaries is to TELL him, with no doubt. ("I will not listen to that. When you are willing to speak logically, I will again listen." or "I do not allow people to accuse me of ....X....with no reason. That won't work with me." ETC.)

There are specific tactics which, when utilized, give you POWER. And not just with N's. With anyone in conversation. People will try to bulldoze you when things get emotional. Don't allow it.

Be in control of yourself and the conversation. If you EVER feel yourself stooping to the tactics you despise, STOP immediately. Get out, and come back later.

[Plucky]

Hi Surrounded,
thanks for thinking about me.  I have not actually progressed but am still planning to go to therapy with my H to see if there is a shred of a chance. 
Mainly I am trying to get my son back on track and deal with my other child's new issues at school.  If only there were more hours in the day!  How does a parent of 6 do it!  I am amazed by you!   
a whiny
Plucky

[Surrounded]

Hello again everyone!!

I have been way for a while.  You know how these twits (Ns) can comsume so much energy and time!

AAAARRRGH!!!!

I so much appreciate everyone's care and concern.  I feel sometimes like a jerk because I have so little advise to give anyone else.  I can't cope with my life, so I apologize for being so needy and unhelpful to others on this board.    Like advise from me would be logical.  HAha!

One thing (of many) that has happened while I've been gone is my husband got totally ticked at me for doing ONE thing without his permission.  Going to a viewing where I wasn't "allowed".  His own cousin passed away.  He was willing to NOT go to a family funeral and viewing just to keep me away cause he was afraid I still had feelings for someone that would be there.   LOOOOOOOOOOOONG story.

I told him I went to the viewing and people wanted to know where he was so I told them he would be at the funeral the next morning.  He would not speak to me, but went,  pouting the whole way there and through the service and even tried to start an emotional argument on the way to the cemetary.  Poor him---ya know.   I didn't give in to his games and I just treated him like an angel.  I was extremely nice and loving.   More so than usual.  Trying to reassure him----just for peace.  I think he would have caused a scene had I not done so. 

Anyway....

He was so upset, he decided to dump me that  night.  I come home from taking our daughter shopping for her birthday the next morning, thinking all is fine.  He is in the bedroom pouting in the dark.  He is supposed to be taking care of the 5 kids at home.  He tells me he doesn't think we are going to make it. 

BUT, it was the night before our daughters 14th birthday, and he knew he was just scaring me back into submission and he could just apologize before morning and I would take him back because he knows I will never allow something like that to happen on one of my (our)kids birthdays. 

He then chastises me for not fighting to keep him.  I was actually relieved for a minute until the reality that he was just toying with me set in.  I wanted to dance, but didn't.  Did allow myself a tiny jig fully knowing it was only a hint of the happiness I could feel------ if he really did go.   

The whole time he was "dumping me"  he just simply sat there as a matter of fact telling me that he was so sorry that he drove me nuts and I hated him so bad.  Basically just blaming me for everything, accusing me of being mean and unreasonable.  And please lets not fight---(fine with me!)   And please let's not be bitter---(fine with me too). 

Just please GO!!!  He also said I was sooooo nice to him that day, and I WAS---that he just didn't know when I was going to "turn on him again".  (Oh---you mean---NOT kiss your butt again?????)  Because of course I am the rotten one, you know. 

I have actually gotten some blessing of peace this last few days.  I have been listening to Co-Dependency No More on my ipod and it is SOOOOO me it is like a mirror.  The only thing that keeps bothering me while I listen over and over, is.......he is not and has never been alcoholic.  But his behavior is mostly the same.  I react and feel the same.  I am grappling with trying to figure this one out.  What in the world explains this??  Are narcissists like alcoholics?  I don't even know what questions to ask.  It's just too weird!

He is a SOMETHING-AHOLIC!!!!  But what????????   And why does it affect me like it does?   Any ideas?

Thanks again for the place to unload a little.  One day I hope to be able to feel like I can help someone.  I can't even explain the guilt I feel for what seems to me to be taking your time and advice and not being able to help anyone back.  Typical.  Must be why I don't talk to anyone in person.  I feel they might just run if I let them get a glimpse of my trouble and anguish.  It is pretty heavy crap for those who probably don't understand or feel like they need to rescue me.   

You are all ANGELS!!!!  Thanks so much for listening!

Everyone Take Care!!

Surrounded

[Surrounded]

PIP

Yes, they are all both of our kids together.  That's why I am still hanging in.  I can't seem to get past the hope of having a happily ever after or at least while the kids grow up.  Each day I get through, but I want to gag thinking of another tomorrow.  Or another.  and another year or so makes me want to vomit.

He likes to makes little comments lately to keep me upset or something.  Like..".only unhappy people cheat.  No one ever cheated said their marriage was going fine."

...or.....I am getting in shape so the chicks will "dig" me.  He tells that to the kids in front of me after he gets off the treadmill.  I decide to play along a little later and ask why he said that and he says......"oh, you DO CARE!" 

PIG!!

I have read Walking on Eggshells and it is spooky how I can relate to that too. 

Wow---I have so much to read and do!  Eeeek!