Is it ok to say: "I hate you."?

[Stormchild]

What's really interesting about this thread is that it is clear, as I read it, that Sela hated what the therapist had done between her and her daughter, and that she also hated the therapist for having done this, while at the same time she's very concerned that we understand that she would never actually come out and SAY these things.

This puts her in a horrible double bind.

Not saying such things, not allowing oneself to think such things, makes no difference whatsoever, if one continues to feel them. In fact, the more you try to hide these feelings, the more they're going to come out sideways. Directed at others, whom it is safer to dislike, in displacement; or directed at the actual target in oblique, mystifying ways, in covert hostility.

What I don't understand is why we think that this type of concealment is either healthy or right. It may be wise, when dealing with someone vindictive and retaliatory [as in Pennyplant's case at work], to keep them from discovering our true feelings about them, but it is rarely either wise or productive in anything that claims to be a close relationship. All it does is destroy closeness.

And yes, even one's closeness with oneself can be destroyed. Look at the battle Ami is fighting, to get back to the Self she lost at age 14, through no fault of her own.

Getting back to Sela's situation, look at how much good concealment has done in this case... none at all. The relationship with the daughter is no better off for it, the relationship with the doctor is no better off for it, and Sela is still carrying all this pain. The mess is not only still there, it's worse because of all the 'I shouldn't say this' associated with it, while of course Sela continues to feel what she feels - and has a right to feel!

I'm not saying we should all go around popping off in one another's faces at the slightest provocation or excuse. What I am saying is that most of us would benefit from being a little more honest [oh, THAT word again ; if it bothers you, substitute 'straightforward'] with ourselves about what we feel, towards whom, and why, and a lot less concerned about how we LOOK when we're trying to pretend we don't feel it.

There are amazing imprecatory prayers in the Book of Psalms, and they are there for a reason. They are there to teach us that even the people whose writings ended up in the Christian Scriptures felt these things, and felt them strongly and even savagely. They are there to teach us that these feellings are the inevitable and natural result when any person is treated meanly and unjustly. They are there to teach us that we need not be ashamed even of these feelings and thoughts, if we bring them honestly and openly before God, with a sincere desire for help and guidance, and a sincere desire for the best outcome for all concerned.

[lighter]

I agree with all that you say, Storm...

but DO I (general) really feel hate if I say that to my child (in a moment of frustration and panic where I'm ripping jammies off and shoving clothes on a tiny body bc we're running late and I'm positive that I will be seen as a failure and a fraud and a loser by the teachers and other mommies', who I'm sure already suspect I'm those things..... bc I suspect them myself?)

Pretty sure it's not hate for my child I have to own and explore.... it's the feelings behind the thought.  SAYING those words, to me.... is like saying....

'SHUT UP!'... or 'STFU!'  I wouldn't and I don't think either need to be said, not that you believe they do either.  I simply would never deal with feelings, myself, using those words or giving anyone permission to use them. 

(disclaimer: I have said those things to someone who was lying to me wholesale and wouldn't stop.... they were also abusive and feeling maddeningly entitled. Do I feel they're proper and correct when used with someone we no longer value and are trying to avoid?  Not sure but.... they had to come out.  So, I agree with you there, don't I?)

I don't like those words and would never use them with someone I wanted an ongoing relationship with.  I will say that.

Words like that are very expensive.... 99.9% of the time they're way out of my price range.

[reallyME]

I like that word, "straightforward"

Websters says:

1 a : free from evasiveness or obscurity : EXACT, CANDID <a straightforward account> b : CLEAR-CUT, PRECISE
2 : proceeding in a straight course or manner : DIRECT, UNDEVIATING

BEING STRAIGHTFORWARD WITH YOURSELF AND OTHERS, ALLOWS YOU TO GO STRAIGHT FORWARD WITHOUT GETTING SIDETRACKED!

________________________________________________________________________________________

Here is the other word mentioned, and it's meaning:

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin honestus honorable, from honos, honor honor
1 a : free from fraud or deception : LEGITIMATE, TRUTHFUL <an honest plea> b : GENUINE, REAL <making honest stops at stop signs -- Christian Science Monitor> c : HUMBLE, PLAIN <good honest food>
2 a : REPUTABLE, RESPECTABLE <honest decent people> b chiefly British : GOOD, WORTHY
3 : CREDITABLE, PRAISEWORTHY <an honest day's work>
4 a : marked by integrity b : marked by free, forthright, and sincere expression : FRANK <an honest appraisal> c : INNOCENT, SIMPLE
synonym see UPRIGHT

[lighter]

I'm having a hard time figuring out the difference between 'straighforward' and being too honest: /

Is there such as thing as being too exact, candid.... precise? 


Direct, uneviating...... sometimes seems, to me.... isn't exactly welcome. 

3-D or otherwise, ahem.

It's almost like walking on eggshells isn't enough, at times either....

the eggshell walkers get name called and cubby holed as well...so.... I can't quite figure out what candid is..... if walking on eggshells can be viewed as evil.

Certainly, in relationships with N's.... it's pretty clear that being direct won't workl.  They have irrational invisible agendas, only they can see....  That much I've figured out.

If people (general) have their own agenda, that will simply not be served without others giving into agreement and submission... what to do, what to do?

Maybe simply avoiding is the best course of action but..... I don't see how that serves us in our journey from voicelesness?

I know I will, at some point.

Just wish it would get here sooner. 

[Certain Hope]

I wonder about the hatred which we might feel from others.

When you know in your heart that a person hates and despises you...  it can be a struggle not to absorb that hate into yourself and make it your own.

When my husband senses that someone doesn't like him, he will go directly to them and ask...  something like, "Do you have a problem with me?"
That's always astounded me... that he can do that.

When I know that someone feels ugly toward me, the last thing I want to do is confront them directly... and yet I do believe that's wise.
Problem is, many folks who only let you know their feelings toward you via unpleasant tones and actions (passive-aggressive?)
tend to take even greater offense at that sort of straightforward approach... especially when they don't like to admit to anyone (including themselves) that they're anything less than perfectly loving.

Great definitions for straightforward, Laura... I'd like to conquer the rest of the fear which might prevent me from always being so.

Lighter... Some folks are going to interpret straightforward as "rudeness" no matter how hard we may try to be "nice" about it.
But there's a Bible passage which comes to my mind alot lately...  talks about "giving no appearance of evil"...
and that's where I think some irony, sarcasm, humor can be misconstrued and so it's probably best to avoid such tools, lest someone feel like they're more of a weapon.
If we're tuned in to the other person and sense that we may not be connecting well with them, I do think that we have a responsibility to ask ourselves why - and then to ask them.
Otherwise, we could be dealing with a sensitive person who is feeling bludgeoned by our words and tuning out every time we speak... and if we assume that's because of some problem in THEM, then... I think that's just prideful.
Yup yup... that's what I think.
We had an interesting couple of years here with my husband blending into our family of 3 (at the time) - 2 of them teens...
and so that's my frame of reference for all of the above.

Love,
Carolyn

[Hopalong]

Ah well, I hate analysing Sela so intimately and making such assumptions about her inner life when she's not present.


Sela, I miss you! A lot!

lots of love,
Hops

[lighter]

Sorry you went through all that pain ((Portia))



I'll address Hope here, with the clear understanding that I haven't had to weather a blended family with 2 teens .... Gads what a learning experience that was, I'm sure. 

What I do know.... is that I've watched some pretty fancy pussyfootin around get labled mean and evil.... and I've been labled mean and evil for inviting people to laugh at themselves.... which is how I always prefer to be approached and so I gravitate towards that. 

Overt hostility and name calling is dreadful to me..... I prefer a more civilized form of disagreeing... preferably using humor, but that's just me.

Since I don't have all that wisdom you've accumulated ....the hard way..... I am lacking in patience and have a belly full of pussyfootin around (read that as being marginalized and not heard when I do speak) I'm trying to outgrow, at this time.

It's not entirely graceful... but I'm working on it, lol.


I don't own the ability to be as patient as you. 

I admit that because it's true. 

Esp where there's absolutely NO payoff: /

I do see where you're coming from and I understand how it can work very well, indeed, however. 

In my FOO... I have to hit people over the head with overt definate statements that mean what I say and say what I mean, or I'm completely dismissed and might as well have said something benign like.....

Lovely day, eh? or.... I had my toes done. ::wiggle wiggle:: 

Once, I said....'I'm trying to have my H arrested" and the response was...... Oh, really?  I have a 2:00 hair appointment, a 4;00 doctors appt and can be there at 5:30 to move some more stuff out of the truck for the sale..... see you then. Kiss Kiss.

I was a very gentle, dreamy eyed child... my sibs were not dreamy eyed in the least.

In Meyer's Briggs they describe the INFP as a swan in a family of ducks: /   

 I suppose I picked up some of their style along the way (in self defense, lol?) bc at some point they started looking at me sideways in a "we have to start watching out for you' sort of way, lol.

I much prefer to be that gentle dreamy eyed child but... the world is a hard place for that particular type of child... add introverted to the list and..... it's not very pretty, I'm afraid.

I will end with this.....  if I have the chemical dump that focuses my attention to a very pinpointed degree....... there is reason for that chemical dump, whether I choose to focus my energy at that time or not.

Sometimes.... I do.

Sometimes not: /

We all do the best we can, in the moment. 

You're words are getting through and I hear you, wise patient Hope: )

[Hopalong]

Sela's post about a difficult time was March of 2006, and Bean pulled up the thread because it's a timely topic for the rest of us in the present. We can get an update from Sela herself when/if she's of a mind.

Danke, Bean. It is a good topic for the board.

(Me, I don't say, "I hate you." I was raised to hate an action or behavior but not a person. Doesn't mean I never feel hate. I have. Basically, it makes me sick to feel it, so mostly, I find ways of thinking that help me access what's happening from a spiritual context rather than an emotional one. What's tricky is when I use my mind to analyse but avoid noticing what's cooking inside me emotionally. But, I've got a mind for a reason, for reason. So, one job is to think about it. The other, for me, is to process it as soon as I can and as best I can from the best part of myself, which is spiritual, not emotional. And if there's no resolution possible, as with a dominant N, then...avoid the person I've felt it about as often as possible, unless I'm a bystander to harm.)

Also worth noting that thinking, feeling, and transcending mingle and flow and are not in separate boxes. So language limits us.

Hops

[Certain Hope]

Lighter,

Feels like I should ask...
Do you feel the need to defend yourself/ your position here? I mean, do you feel like I'm questioning or correcting you?

I don't mean to do that... so if that's how it feels to you, I'd like to change my approach.

As far as the rest of it...

I know what you mean about the "fancy pussyfootin around" and it often smells like nothing but phoniness to me.
Most of the time, I think it's just people trying to be polite and gracefully bow out of a conversation they'd rather not have.
And I do see that this is sometimes the best method of defusing a potentially explosive situation.
It all depends on the other personality involved, I think.

From my own perspective, when I see that someone is strongly opposed to any
disagreement with her own views, I won't try to communicate at a deeper level.
I don't have to judge her in order to come to that conclusion, or judge myself, either...
just know that some folks aren't going to mesh.

In my case, I've always felt such strong vibes from others - some positive, some negative -
 and I've always found that level of awareness to be so painful... that I've often made a conscious decision to
tune out those vibes, lest I presume too much and get caught up in some false assumptions.
My friend Hops and I had a situation like that, which she's mentioned elsewhere on the board... and that taught me alot.
Literally, I couldn't function in life if I heeded all those vibrations I get, so I have to turn down the sensitivity in order to communicate at all.
Still, sometimes I do heed them and completely disengage... and wisely so.

Overt hostility and name calling is dreadful to me, too.
On the other hand, I have family members who've often used humor and sarcasm in much the same way,
so it had the same effect as if they'd dissed me outright with a curse, or called me a bad name.
Because of that, I can understand how some personalities are negatively affected by what you or I might consider humorous.
Cerebral Narcissists are masters of the sarcastic, sneering remark...
the effects of exposure to that can take a good long while to shake off.

Truly, patience is not my particular virtue. I just do not want to keep fighting the same old, worn battles.
For me, there is a payoff... I keep my integrity intact and do my best not to offend others if there's any way I can avoid that.
Sometimes it's not possible... because a person determined to take offense will find it, whether you lay it before them or not.

I don't understand the chemical dump reference... are we talking brain bio? I know, duh... see, I am so dense.

But to me, yes, you are a swan.
On the other hand, we have chickens and ducks, and to me - a duck is a very spiritual creature, in comparison.

We're not arguing here, are we?
Doesn't feel like a disagreement to me... and I sure don't want to be disagreeable.

Love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

Hope:

I'm pretty sure it can't be an argument if I can't remember exactly what we were supposed to be arguing about, lol. 

I think I was....::going back to peek::  responding to Laura's post on being straighforward and how that's not always accepted gracefully, or in the spirit in which it was intended? 

You responsed.... I responsed?

General message... nothing to do with you..... as follows:

Sometimes, even knowing the response won't be chipper, I need to just leave a truth out there bc I've spent so many years saying nothing..... and now have some regrets, for different reasons. 

Nobody dies if we tell the truth. 

Who knew?


I'm curiouse what does happen: /  Maybe somebody gets a message or at least I don't feel like I'm blowing smoke up their bum?   Something to be said for having my integrity up in place, at least at this time but that's all subjective.  I don't need to have everything understood about my journey or be validated... it just seemed like a natural jumping off post.

::sigh::

I admit Idiot Empathy resonates powerfully, for me, on this board.... at this time.  ::shrug::

Your ability to be patient (read that as pussyfootin around) was addressed and I understand it yet maintain my inability to occupy that space right now, though I once could occupy no other. 

Let's see... is there anything else I missed...?

Nope.... I'm good, lol

All clear......

[Certain Hope]

Ahh... now wait a minute here, Missy Lighter...     lol.

I had not realized that the pussyfootin was a reference to me and my so-called "patience"!!    

Maybe I can clarify a bit...

In general, I've found that the majority of folks don't pay much attention to what's actually being said.
In general, it seems to me that most folks only hear the squeakiest wheels... and they don't really note all the stuff which led up to that squeaking.
In my house, for instance, if my kids are having a disagreement, I have learned that the one making the most noise is not necessarily the injured party. My daughter may be furious with my son and screeching about her injured toe... and if I hadn't been closely watching the entire interaction, I wouldn't know that she'd actually hurt that toe whilst trying to do a smackdown move on her bro.
Yeah huh... things are not necessarily as they appear.

So... who wants to waste the time explaining to numbers of inattentive bystanders what just happened?

Not I!

I don't want to make that sort of investment in hogwash, really.

So for me, it really is not nearly so much about patience as it is conservation of time and energies.

Make sense?

Love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

Hope... forgot to explain 'chemical dump' as I wrote it.

I'm usually a very fuzzy wuzzy sleepy bear sort of personality.

Focusing on something in particular usually involves some type of chemical dump.... natural or self inficted.

Coffee....

a tall glass of water sans ice......

ginseng.....

someone on the board finger wagging at other people for doing exactly what they themselves have done.  

Yup yup yup..... Hypocrisy can  give me a jolt, though it's not necessarily an angry jolt... or even judgmenta.  

I was fasinated with one poster's ability to remain incredulous,  in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  Then it turned into another excuse.... then another.... but still no responsility was taken.  

I still wonder.... can she simply NOT admit she's ever wrong or..... was her need to be right so powerful that she can't even see what's in front of her?  Is it pathological and is she our lesson or are we her's?

I guess I'm curiouse too.... come to think of it.... and more likely to be amused than become angry on the board... except when newcomers get manipulated for selfish reasons to their detriment.

The chemical dump involved in that one..... has a few extra ingredients: /



As for any and all pussyfootin going on..... it was general pf that I was referring to and your response prompted some discussion about why you try to avoid conflict and keep your integrity in tact and I get that and respect it: )

[Certain Hope]

Hi Lighter,

Thanks for explaining that chemical dump reference.
I gather it's like a shot of adrenaline...
a catalyst of sort... and whether that culminates in action or reaction, I dunno... but I think that's the key to watch out for.

Also, the way I look at it, there are various ways to participate in finger-wagging...
 and this post of mine feels like it has the potential to turn into just that.

I'm not qualified to wag... only to set my own boundaries, directly and clearly.
Till now, I have not done a very effective job of that, but that just takes practice, I figure.
It feels to me like you have some boundaries ready to bust on outta you... and maybe you need to spell them out?
I don't know... that's just a feeling.

In my own revised view of this business of communication, I believe that if we have a problem with another
individual we should either speak directly with them about it, immediately, or let it go, also immediately.

For me... I've been talking with you here, Lighter, because I don't have any problem with you and no desire to finger wag... only talk.

As far as those with whom I've taken issue and had to reinforce boundaries, when I've said that I've let something go,
I need to not pick it back up again... neither personally nor vicariously.

Just as a general rule, I can't do veiled references and insinuations.  When I've felt in the past that I've participated in such vagueries, I've always felt bad, cheap, weak, and childish about myself. It's all just too catty for me.
I don't want to think that way and I'm only just beginning to realize that I need to make use of disclaimers when I post lest the other person misunderstand.
In some cases, I'm seeing that I can't post in agreement with some other posters here, lest I be automatically misunderstood, by association.
That bugs me, and yet it's a fact with which I've gotta deal somehow... or else return to voicelessness. I need to be able to speak for myself... and I think that I do deserve the respect to not be lumped in with anyone else, or put onto this side of the fence or that, simply because of someone else's arbitrary choice. When people do that, I feel that they deny me my right to be myself, independent of another. On the other hand, if I don't want to be automatically lumped, then I need to speak up in disagreement with others when I truly disagree... or else I will come across lookin like some sort of tag-along, dependent personality. These are just a couple of realizations I've been seeing here on the board.

One thing that is true about me is that I don't generally find anyone else's foibles and failings amusing... with the exception
of someone whom I dearly love engaging in some accidental slapstick, about which I'd have a hard time not laughing.
I feel that to sit back and laugh at another person's disabilities (and that's how I see them) is a form of mockery. I don't want to be that way. I don't think that humor works as a substitute for anger, because it often comes across feeling like that mockery I mentioned above.
Better for me to just not engage, if there's any risk at all that I might offend them by being cavalier or too lighthearted in my approach with them.
That's just my own personal view. I don't like to be misunderstood.
It hurts me when I've been misunderstood.

Anyhow, thanks again for making me think this through further.
It seems that you have a much clearer image of your own self than I do at this point.
My self-image is a work in progress, as I experience communication here and discover what works... and what doesn't.
Because I consider you a friend, I feel able to just talk straight up without fear... but I can't do that with just anyone.
I don't mind doing a bit of the eggshell walk until familiarity grows... but there is a line for that, I think - I just need to
decide where that line should be and be prepared to draw it. Getting practice with that here, too... so it's all good.

Love,
Carolyn


 

[lighter]

Carolyn....

it would be my hope that the person I'm nudging.... (read that as mocking for those who see it that way)

would be able to step back and see the humor in what they're doing.....

along with me.

If I simply wanted to mock someone..... to be mean or injure someone without reason.....

I could do that. 

And with a whole lot less thought than 'nudging' them takes: /

I could also name call, rant and accuse and be a PITA that wouldn't shut up for anything about lots of things just because.....

but I don't

Being mean is easy.....

pointing things out, with humor, in the hope that others can laugh with you (and find some deeper understanding of themselves) is another thing, IMO... of course. 

At any point, the person I think we're referring to..... could have... almost did..... take responsibility and move on past. 

But they juuuuuuussssst couldn't manage the leap and that's OK. 

They have something.... someone.... tapping them on the shoulder from their past, maybe?

I know what that feels like to have my face pressed against the glass. 

I know what it's like to stand on the cliff..... wind blowing so hard I can't hear.... wind wrapping my hair around my face so that I can't see......

there's only the wind and the cliff...... confusion and pain.

It's a place where I can sometimes be reached.... and sometimes not.

I'd like to say I always responded with...... 'that's right... I did that, didn't I?' then laugh with the person who's trying to help steer me off the ledge.  I have done it..... plain speakers can get through to me so.... I suppose I've emulated them to some degree. 

Oh my, having strong female friends.... some 40 years my senior.... has touched my life in yet another way I didn't quite understand until now. 

I know they'll only be with me a little while longer.... I've been going in and out of anxiety attacks when I think about losing them but it's their honestly and truth and the fact that they have my very best interest in mind.... that I'll miss most. Wherever will I go to find replace that?   

And yet... the other day I was struggling mightily with fear and..... just sitting quietly by a koi pond for an hour with one of these friends steadied me.... she didn't't understand enough to help me but her quiet presense was enough to get my attention.... her letting me help her with something she's worried about helped me off the ledge.  I recovered and was amazed at the serenity I gained.... still not sure where it came from exactly but.... it was mine and I received it and it's still with me, thank God.

Amazing... the power of honesty... in my own life.

I'd be lying if I said I could always understand the hand being extended.... and let it help me come down off the edge.  That isn't really true.

But I will say, with some confidence..... that I also don't think I'd scapegoat the person extending their hand.  I might be more angry or frirghtened or horrified than I perhaps should be at whatever is truly hunting me but..... I don't get outsiders confused with the hunter, as far as I know, anyway.

I also want to go down on record with this.....

I hope that everyone who feels excluded can come and join me down by the river.... in the reeds..... and laugh like children.  At ourselves... each other.... our situations.... and our paths of healing. 

It never occurred to me that those that feel ganged up on and attacked won't be able to turn away from the edge and come down by the river too. 

Eventually.....

and we can talk about how they found their way. 

I'd hate to think they'd remain on the ledge..... finding enemies everywhere around them.... without end.

I simply can't tolerate even thinking about that. 

And so.... what good would it do me to gang up on someone I wish could see me as someone who would help?

OH OH OH!  I know this is long and prolly gettin boring but....

I watched THE GAME again last night... maybe for the 10th time.  I just never get sick of that movie and it really had more meaning for me this time bc of the discussions on the board. 

Where once I was blind.... now I see.

Poor Mike Douglas, cast perfectly IMO..... had to be ripped, kicking and screaming, OUT of his comfort level in order to learn things about himself that opened his life up to joy and true understanding. 

WOW WOW WOW I just thought about these threads as I watched and it is amazing how we do sometimes have to hit rock bottom in order to come to a place where we can listen.

Not sure how that applies here but I'll end on that. 

[cats paw]

Lighter, Certain Hope -

 
      Is it ok for me to post at this point about something related to your conversation?

cats paw