Is it ok to say: "I hate you."?

[lighter]

CatsPaw.... jump in any time: )

[Certain Hope]

Dear Cat's Paw,

You're welcome to contribute anything you'd like, as far as I'm concerned.

Dear Lighter,

I'll hold off on replying for a bit... kinda in betwixt here with kitchen stuff and just popped in.

One thing I just want to continue to emphasize... in this discussion, I do not have a particular view which I'd like to try to prove as right, or anything like that. To me, this is about gaining understanding of various perspectives and throughout the whole thing, I'm open to consider changes in my own view, okay?  Coming from a stance of 100% fear for a lifetime, I realize that I'm way behind the times in knowing how to deal with this stuff and only want to adopt the very best methods myself. Also, I don't know how much weight individual personality should be allowed to carry when we're talking about discussions of sensitive issues, as we do here.
Just seems to me that everyone needs to be willing to bend over backwards a bit more here, considering the environment...

back later.

If you're around Cat's Paw, I'm very interested to hear you...

Love,
Carolyn

[cats paw]

Thanks Lighter,

   I'm going to go ahead since since one of the two of you ok'd it, and I don't think Hope will mind, based on what I'm going to say.

   First, IMO, the two of you are having a wonderful dialogue.

   Secondly, when you first replied to me on the thread that was pulled, you said be careful, because you never know what they're going to do, before you said serpentine while I lurk.

   Though you used an icon in the first part, for a brief second I felt a bit mocked.  It only lasted for a second, because my assumption was that at worst, you were poking gentle fun at me, because my recent worries about what to post where, when etc. were quite evident.  I think I even poked a little fun at myself about this very issue when I purposely exaggerated once, saying and, and, and....Never Mind. (I was thinking of Gilda Radner on SNL, but I don't know if that made sense to anyone else when I wrote it.)

   I'm ok with some people poking fun, if it's a safe experience.  Sometimes, it's just hard to tell, especially in this medium.

   I think that's basically all I wanted to say, to describe my experience in that instance, and I must feel ok about voicing it, since I have written this.  Thanks for letting me practice my "I" statements !  

cats paw

   Oh, almost forgot- who asked you if they could be garbed like an amazon just recently?  I wanna, too !  I lost mine somewhere about ten years ago!  
 
Carolyn,

   Thanks!  I see you posted while I was typing.   

[Stormchild]

I agree with all that you say, Storm...

but DO I (general) really feel hate if I say that to my child (in a moment of frustration and panic where I'm ripping jammies off and shoving clothes on a tiny body bc we're running late and I'm positive that I will be seen as a failure and a fraud and a loser by the teachers and other mommies', who I'm sure already suspect I'm those things..... bc I suspect them myself?)

Pretty sure it's not hate for my child I have to own and explore.... it's the feelings behind the thought.  SAYING those words, to me.... is like saying....

'SHUT UP!'... or 'STFU!'  I wouldn't and I don't think either need to be said, not that you believe they do either.  I simply would never deal with feelings, myself, using those words or giving anyone permission to use them. 

(disclaimer: I have said those things to someone who was lying to me wholesale and wouldn't stop.... they were also abusive and feeling maddeningly entitled. Do I feel they're proper and correct when used with someone we no longer value and are trying to avoid?  Not sure but.... they had to come out.  So, I agree with you there, don't I?)

I don't like those words and would never use them with someone I wanted an ongoing relationship with.  I will say that.

Words like that are very expensive.... 99.9% of the time they're way out of my price range.

Ah, but look at what I actually said, now.

I did not say: go tell everyone you hate exactly how you feel about them. Scream at them, abuse them, tell them to shut up, let it all hang out.

Not at all. Not even remotely.

I did say: unless you can admit to yourself that you feel these things, unless you can recognize in yourself the overwhelming desire to do these things, you are probably going to spend the rest of your life trapped by them, in one way or another, when it's so much nicer [and over so much faster] simply to face them and deal with them.

Using 'you' in the generic sense, and including me in that generic 'you' as well.

Funny timing. I picked up a diet pamphlet yesterday on impulse, while the checkout clerk was having a 20 minute confab with the guy in line in front of me, ringing up one item at a time, with three sentences per item. What I found in it made me chuckle hugely.

It's published by Prevention magazine, and authored &/or edited by a fellow named Bob Greene, who is apparently on Oprah a lot. This is what it says [pages 17 and 18, PreventionGuide 'Best Life Diet Planner']

"With a strong emotional foundation, everything you build ... will stand tall and firm. That foundation begins with four basic cornerstones: honesty, responsibility, commitment, and inner strength. These qualities are the building blocks of success in weight loss and all other facets of life. Here's how they work:

"HONESTY You want to change? Stop wearing blinders. It's essential to be honest about your weaknesses and past failures in order to succeed. ...

"The point of honest self-exploration is not to beat yourself up about your shortcomings. Rather, it's to learn something you didn't know about yourself, or, if you did know it on some level, to finally admit it.  ... When you're honest with yourself, you can break unhealthy patterns and build on positive ones.

"RESPONSIBILITY Successful people take responsibility for their past actions. Follow their lead. To begin, stop pointing the blame elsewhere ...

"COMMITMENT Another characteristic of successful people? They keep commitments.  ... Your commitment to yourself needs to be sacred.

"INNER STRENGTH Inner strength is often what tilts the scale from failure to success.. ... each time you make the healthier choice, your inner strength flourishes and those temptations become easier to defeat."

Shoot, this is exactly what I've been saying here for years, and it's the gist of what I said on this thread.

It's not controversial; it's not rocket science. Dunno why folks react as though it were.

[cats paw]

  No, it's not rocket science at all.  I think it dovetails nicely with the story of walking down the street, falling into a hole, etc. and in the end taking a different street.  Everyone is at different stages.

  Boy, did I jump in the hole in the street yesterday.  I had a difficult visit with my mother yesterday, on many levels.  I used some resources, (except for this board and my journal) but I was still feeling the effects of a chemical dump as Lighter puts it.  But BOY-OH-BOY, instead of just the catalyst, as Carolyn said was how she understood Lighter's reference, mine was different.  I had emotions, and had them aplenty!

  I'm wanting to lose weight for a trip in 2008, and have been doing well.  But as I said, I jumped in the hole yesterday after my visit with my mother, and was briefly weak and failed.  But, I'm not beating myself up over it.  My stance is different this time. So perhaps it was not such a failure after all.

  Geez, wonder what Sela will think about the interesting turn this thread has taken?

cats paw

 

[Certain Hope]

  I'm ok with some people poking fun, if it's a safe experience.  Sometimes, it's just hard to tell, especially in this medium.

   I think that's basically all I wanted to say, to describe my experience in that instance, and I must feel ok about voicing it, since I have written this.  Thanks for letting me practice my "I" statements !  

Dear Cats Paw,

It's the same for me, just as you've said here... it depends who's doing the fun-poking. In fact, to a great measure, I suppose it depends on that individual's proven ability to laugh at himself.
The thing is, when I know that someone is particularly sensitive to such interaction (and I mean sensitive in a non-condemning way, as I can be this way, too!!!!) ...
then I will try my best to make a point of not approaching them in that style...
at least until they have a chance to get to know me better.
I guess there are some folks with whom that light-hearted approach may never be effective, in which case any relationship wouldn't go too far... cuz I can't imagine life without humor, either.

And I really appreciate what you've said about practicing your "I" statements. That's what it seems I need to do, too... and like I keep trying to say, it's seemed safe to me to do that with Lighter. On the other hand, I don't want to take advantage of her good will. Seems necessary to me to have a willing partner in this sort of endeavor... or at least someone who's aware that's what you're doing. Till you expressed it, Cat's Paw, I wasn't sure what it was even called.

So dear Lighter, now that I know your identity as a swan... I just want to be sure that this approach I've taken here is not causing you distress.
Are you okay?  May we continue sharing and comparing "I" statements with a non-judgmental tone?

I understand what you've written here about being mean vs nudging... and I agree... and I see that I used to give considerable attention to nudging, in the past.... so in many ways, you remind me of myself then. For better or worse, I seem to have left the nudging behind, at least most of it. Really, I feel like... who am I to nudge?  I'd have to understand someone else pretty well before I could even begin to know which direction he/she needed to go... and I'm only just now beginning to come to an understanding of myself.
So all I can do is compare notes...
there's enough wind on my own cliff to drown out alot which I'd have to take into consideration before directing anyone else.

Love,
Carolyn

[Hopalong]

Carolyn and Lighter,

What I love about your dialogue is that you are so different, yet it's so visible how you are taking steps toward accepting and understanding each other. You'll never have remotely similar voices or styles, and yet, you are curious and open enough, and have good-will...so that it looks like a respectful and safe communication. It's been engaging and illuminating to read, thank you!

Carolyn, in my mind you are characterized by caring carefulness. It feels like part great sensitivity, but also great commitment to serious and loving ideals. You really want harmony and understanding, and you are sensitive not only to the thought of being misunderstood, but just as much to the notion of you misunderstanding. It feels to me like those motives mostly balance each other in you, so you can keep engaging with most folks. Very lovely to see. (I bet your H is besotted with you.)

Lighter, you are sharp as a clamshell edge. Your humour lays me out sometimes, and never offends me. I think that's because I can feel the difference between a brief moment of snark (you described that in a way that helped me make peace with my own snark-bursts) and a slicing. Other times, I am delighted by your graphic wit, the way you play with words and space, so I feel as though you're sketching your communication as well as writing it. Lastly, the burlesque side of me just loves your inner goof. You may, in fact, be the reincarnation of a French bulldog.

Botha youse, I could of course be way off base (please disregard anything clueless), but I love the chance to describe people to themselves in a positive way. That has been offered so generously to me here so many times. Time for some payback!

love
Hops

[Certain Hope]

((((((((((Hops))))))))))) you dear, sweet heart... I accept that characterization! I do, I do... because I remember a little girl who was just as you've described and she looked just like me.

And I must say, I wholeheartedly agree with your portrayal of Lighter, as well... but although it may not be visible in type, I think that we have at least a bit in common, in a parallel-dimensionish kinda way 

(((((((((Lighter))))))))))

Love you both very much,

Carolyn

[finding peace]

hey folks – sorry to interrupt, just wanted to clarify something,

Lighter you said:

it would be my hope that the person I'm nudging.... (read that as mocking for those who see it that way)

I used nudging on my thread over yonder – hope you don’t think I was implying, in any way shape of form, that this was mocking?

My definition of nudging is not mocking, it is pushing a hair beyond a person’s comfort level.  Nudging to the next level if that makes any sense.  I see this is a good thing, personally, for me, it is where I learn the most.

:::shrug:::

Others may not like this as it doesn’t always sit well, and I can find it uncomfortable as well, but ultimately I like it.  May not agree in the end, but I get some great food for thought.

OK – just wanted to make sure you understood that I did not equate nudging with mocking.

Now I am going to find an ice pack for me head.

Peace

[isittoolate]

Well, Peace

A nudge can be equated to being stuck in a groove of a record (if one remembers musical records that played with a needle) and a thoughtful person gives the needle a gentle nudge for it to jump to the next groove, instead of going over and over and over and over the same thing!

Regards all
Izzy

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Certain Hope]

A few comments from sleepylane over here...I like those definitions of nudge, too... Izzy's phonograph needle, tweedling with someone's hair (a very loose paraphrase, I know, Peace )

I don't mind being tweedled or nudged... Lord knows I need it.

But I am thinkin that I'd feel okay/safe/on solid ground about nudging a close friend, while with anyone else... I'd be afraid that I might pull back a nub.

Even here on the board... just because we're all in the same proverbial boat, I'm not sure that we should automatically assume it's okay to nudge?
Maybe it's best to ask permission before nudging?

Just my half-penny's worth.

Carolyn

[lighter]

I agree with all that you say, Storm...

but DO I (general) really feel hate if I say that to my child (in a moment of frustration and panic where I'm ripping jammies off and shoving clothes on a tiny body bc we're running late and I'm positive that I will be seen as a failure and a fraud and a loser by the teachers and other mommies', who I'm sure already suspect I'm those things..... bc I suspect them myself?)

Pretty sure it's not hate for my child I have to own and explore.... it's the feelings behind the thought.  SAYING those words, to me.... is like saying....

'SHUT UP!'... or 'STFU!'  I wouldn't and I don't think either need to be said, not that you believe they do either.  I simply would never deal with feelings, myself, using those words or giving anyone permission to use them. 

(disclaimer: I have said those things to someone who was lying to me wholesale and wouldn't stop.... they were also abusive and feeling maddeningly entitled. Do I feel they're proper and correct when used with someone we no longer value and are trying to avoid?  Not sure but.... they had to come out.  So, I agree with you there, don't I?)

I don't like those words and would never use them with someone I wanted an ongoing relationship with.  I will say that.

Words like that are very expensive.... 99.9% of the time they're way out of my price range.

Ah, but look at what I actually said, now.

I did not say: go tell everyone you hate exactly how you feel about them. Scream at them, abuse them, tell them to shut up, let it all hang out.

Not at all. Not even remotely.

I did say: unless you can admit to yourself that you feel these things, unless you can recognize in yourself the overwhelming desire to do these things, you are probably going to spend the rest of your life trapped by them, in one way or another, when it's so much nicer [and over so much faster] simply to face them and deal with them.

Using 'you' in the generic sense, and including me in that generic 'you' as well.

Funny timing. I picked up a diet pamphlet yesterday on impulse, while the checkout clerk was having a 20 minute confab with the guy in line in front of me, ringing up one item at a time, with three sentences per item. What I found in it made me chuckle hugely.

It's published by Prevention magazine, and authored &/or edited by a fellow named Bob Greene, who is apparently on Oprah a lot. This is what it says [pages 17 and 18, PreventionGuide 'Best Life Diet Planner']

"With a strong emotional foundation, everything you build ... will stand tall and firm. That foundation begins with four basic cornerstones: honesty, responsibility, commitment, and inner strength. These qualities are the building blocks of success in weight loss and all other facets of life. Here's how they work:

"HONESTY You want to change? Stop wearing blinders. It's essential to be honest about your weaknesses and past failures in order to succeed. ...

"The point of honest self-exploration is not to beat yourself up about your shortcomings. Rather, it's to learn something you didn't know about yourself, or, if you did know it on some level, to finally admit it.  ... When you're honest with yourself, you can break unhealthy patterns and build on positive ones.

"RESPONSIBILITY Successful people take responsibility for their past actions. Follow their lead. To begin, stop pointing the blame elsewhere ...

"COMMITMENT Another characteristic of successful people? They keep commitments.  ... Your commitment to yourself needs to be sacred.

"INNER STRENGTH Inner strength is often what tilts the scale from failure to success.. ... each time you make the healthier choice, your inner strength flourishes and those temptations become easier to defeat."

Shoot, this is exactly what I've been saying here for years, and it's the gist of what I said on this thread.

It's not controversial; it's not rocket science. Dunno why folks react as though it were.

Storm, I'm pretty sure we agreed here......  and provided the posts just to go over again if you think you need to.  I really do think we were agreeing though.... I was just making sure.

Terrific post from Oprah's Guru of weight loss. 

You're right... it's not rocket science: )

[lighter]

Thanks Lighter,

   I'm going to go ahead since since one of the two of you ok'd it, and I don't think Hope will mind, based on what I'm going to say.

   First, IMO, the two of you are having a wonderful dialogue.

   Secondly, when you first replied to me on the thread that was pulled, you said be careful, because you never know what they're going to do, before you said serpentine while I lurk.

   Though you used an icon in the first part, for a brief second I felt a bit mocked.  It only lasted for a second, because my assumption was that at worst, you were poking gentle fun at me, because my recent worries about what to post where, when etc. were quite evident.  I think I even poked a little fun at myself about this very issue when I purposely exaggerated once, saying and, and, and....Never Mind. (I was thinking of Gilda Radner on SNL, but I don't know if that made sense to anyone else when I wrote it.)

   I'm ok with some people poking fun, if it's a safe experience.  Sometimes, it's just hard to tell, especially in this medium.

   I think that's basically all I wanted to say, to describe my experience in that instance, and I must feel ok about voicing it, since I have written this.  Thanks for letting me practice my "I" statements !  

cats paw

   Oh, almost forgot- who asked you if they could be garbed like an amazon just recently?  I wanna, too !  I lost mine somewhere about ten years ago!  
 
Carolyn,

   Thanks!  I see you posted while I was typing.   

Hey Catspaw.... I wanted to say.... sorry you felt mocked, even for a minute.

I know how I meant it and it was supposed to make you feel better about lurking..... and not being harrassed for doing so.

When I was having a very bad October last year, I could barely stand to be around other people bc I simply

could'

not

tell

when

other

people

were

using

humor.

I couldn't identify humor!

It was awful.... I felt like a hunted animal.

I couln't post.... could barely read posts here.

I didn't see people's names or remember anything about anyone or who tried to help me from here.  Sorry, it's true.

It was what was going on inside of me and this is a place where lots of different people are coming from different places... going in and out of pain.

I can see where it would be difficult to understand anything, much less humor on a board for emotional survivors but.... it's part of my surviving and my ability to see humor again, when I use it.

And I love to use it.

I could look at it this way..... I've healed enough to move on and take my bothersome humor elsewhere..... it does bother some and nobody can process it when they're in pain so...... maybe there's a reason people move on from the board after a while?  Because they don't need what the board has or can't post what it needs?  Not really sure about that one..... will have to think about it...... makes me think about losing Write...: ( 

But... there are others here who have healed enough and those that are beginning to heal enough..... that can process it.

Is the humor the problem, or how we process, or that I'm an evil stalking meanie pretending to be something else adn I don't even know it?

I guess it's all part of the process and I truly can see how it could be confusing because I've been confused.

I will say this.... SERPENTINE... Shelly was a line from a movie I really liked.  Remeber, where the guy who plays Columbo was meeting dentist father of the guy his son would be marrying soon... and he was a CIA agent.

I insert comedy movie lines and when writing I assume SOMEBODY will get it, but they usually never do so I suppose I should rethink or put a footnote at the bottom: /

Please.... Catspaw... take up the leather breast plate, ::handing CP shiney new BP)

for you.... I definately have to insist on the bronze cat headband and matching arm bracelets..... yes.... matching kitty's on your boots as well: )
\

Must fly into get children ready for school mode now!  You are AMAZON!

[finding peace]

Yep I hear ya Izzy. 

Tho – have to say, a record player doesn’t have feelings – you nudge it, the only one affected is the nudger as they get a rest from hearing the same thing over and over and over.

This is how I see it:

When the record player is a person – that gentle nudge may feel like a kick in the gut because they aren’t ready to hear that they are stuck in the same groove, the nudger may be misinterpreting that the nudgee is stuck in a groove, when in fact they aren’t, and the nudgee may get offended and say some nasty things.

Then the nudger gets offended cause their getting kicked back, and say some nasty things and the whole purpose of the well-intentioned gentle nudge is lost – and all you get is a major cluster muck with all nudges ending up angry. 

And Carolyn, I definitely agree – this whole cluster muck could be avoided if the nudger first checks out how the nudgee feels about being nudged before nudging. 

Sometimes, someone inadvertently nudges and in this case, it helps if the nudgee asks the nudger if they intended to nudge, and what was the intent of the nudge.  (Similar to your exchange with Lighter when you thought she was being sarcastic).  When that happens the potential cluster muck can be stopped in its tracks (as it was with you and Lighter - a good example of communication IMO).  When the nudgee doesn’t ask, then we may get a repeat of paragraphs 1 through 3.

If after all of this, there is still a hiccup in the record, the only feasible action I can see is the nudgee needs to stop listening to the nudger until they are ready to hear and the nudger needs to listen to a different record player so they aren’t driven crazy by the repeating sound - kwim?  Kinda like letting go of the outcome.

One other piece to consider for the nudgee, is whether the nudger has an agenda different than helping.  It may be that the nudger was truly trying to help; however, it could also be that the nudger was nudging to meet their own agenda.  The reverse is also true, if the reaction to a gentle, well-intentioned nudge is seemingly over the top, it may be that nudgee was triggered; however, it could also be that the nudgee is blowing things out of proportion to meet their own agenda. (Learned this one from the FOO – had some master Nnudgers and Nnudgees.)  Only time can tell when this happens.

Whew – got carried away there. (This is what happens to a post migraine brain)  

Love to you both.  Speaking for myself, I appreciate a gentle, well-intentioned nudge most of the time.  May not like it, may agree or not with it, but I will always learn something from it.

Peace

PS:  I am old enough to know what a record is. Funny thing, I actually had to explain to my D what a record is – that was a real unpleasant, eye-opening I am old moment Kinda felt like I was in a Forrest Gump movie

PSS:  Carolyn - thinking about you.  How did the dentist go?

[cats paw]

Finding Peace,

  This is from a post-migraine brain?  It says everything so well!

cats paw